horsey qualifications- do they mean much to you?

Firstly a huge well done to Charlie 76 and thank you for taking the time to write a report of you exam day- really interesting for those of us who aspire to taking it one day.
For me, the BHS qualifications are a framework that encourage me to progress and improve myself. There are hundreds if not thousands of grooms/instructors/riders who get stuck at a very basic level and moan about their job/lifestyle etc. I don't want to be one of them so I work hard, gain all the experience I can, absorb lots from surrounding myself with knowledgeable, intelligent horsepeople, and when I feel I'm confident working at the next level, I sit the next exam. There's a lot to be gained from learning new skills and developing your ability- why not do it with the aid of a recognised framework?
I would very much agree with the fact that the AI shouldn't be 'bigged up'! The very reason I'm so motivated to get my II (just the teaching to go but feel I need to be competing ABOVE the level you teach at) is that there really are some very weak AIs out there who seem to think they can't be taught anything by anyone.
 
Re UKCC:
Too busy trying to have a conversation with you than actually teaching.
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To be fair to the coaches, coaching is not instructing. It's an entirely different style of learning/support and relies far more on you solving the problems yourself, rather than the coach telling you what to do. To be a coach, you don't actually have to know anything about the subject matter, although it helps. Coaching may not suit your learning style, but it suits some.

I took my National Pony Society exams back in the day. I thought they were a really good set up - you had to be 'sponsored' by someone from an approved stud, and you had to have at least 12 months work experience with them before they would let you take the exams.
 
charlie76 said:
Do you know, posts like this make me mad! It tends to be the people WITHOUT qualifications that seem to think that they mean nothing. I have just taken my BHSI and if you think that you don't need EXPERIENCE to gain this then you are very wrong.
You need to be competing and riding a variety of horses at a decent level. You also need to know rules of every discapline as well as know about training riders and students. You need to be able to discuss all levels from grass route riders through to riders and horses on the equine pathway and world class squads.
You also need to be able to assess from the floor a horses way of going both on the flat and over fences.
The people you teach are competing at a min of medium level dressage, BE intermediate and SJ over Foxhunter courses.
Added to this the stable management side where you have to know in depth all aspects of horse care inc endurance, 3 day eventing, breeding, AI, give lectures in conformation , the structure of the mouth, be able to talk about running an equestrian centre as a business, the legal aspects , insurance, PAYE, book keeping, accident reporting, COSHH, RIDDOR, give a lecture in a classroom using prepared hand outs on a variety of subjects.
And thats just the start.
Even at stage four you need to know the endocrine, reproduction, circulatory, respitory systems in some depth as well as knowing the way nutrients affect the horse and where they are found.
All the exams are examined by people that are /have been competing and teaching to a high level and expect they quality back.
I think, maybe, those who think they mean nothing, should actually look at the Syllabus for each exam and see what is actually involved before rendering them useless!
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As above ^^^^
Really riles me when people knock qualifications. It takes, time and effort and hard work to get your exams and these days they are far harder to get than in the past. I did mine throuogh a riding centre, I had to work hard with the theory side of things but was encouraged to put everything into practise, including treating sick and injured horses. I remember one nely qualified BHSAI asking how much kaolin she should use as at the centre she had trained at the students were not allowed to treat the injured horses, the head girl did them.
What people must remember is that the AI is the start of a persons career in the equestrian world - they will still be learning and also putting into practise what they have learned.

I remember being told that the BHSAI was the gateway to the world - totally true - I got my residency based on all my qualifications.

Look at it another way - how would you feel if you found out that the doctor who treated you in hospital wasn't qualified but had been given the job because he managed to succesfully treat a few people who had flu or a tummy bug?
 
Shilasdair said:
I don't understand this attitude.
If I thought I were a bad example of my profession, I'd do something about it - improve myself through learning, rather than blaming the profession.
As with all other professions, perhaps if you did your quals 25yrs ago, you could do with a little updating?
S :(
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Shilasdair, I did exactly that, which is why I chose to comment. I trained in both uSA, Germany and Spain, so I feel my comments are justified. I think the BHS and there ilk are a bad example of the equine profession and industry and I stand by my comments.
 
lassiesuca said:
Just a question into your opinions- what's your opinion on people with BHS qualifications, diplomas in equine care etc- does that make them more experienced and therefore their opinion to be absolutely correct?
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I think the type you describe should be thrown on the muck heap ASAP ;)

I agree with what has allready been said by Shils and Charlie76.
I don't think the BHS exams are either easy or worthless, they DO require experiance (the higher you go the more you need) and you need to have studied a comprehensive syllabus to have a hope of a pass.

This topic comes up again and again and I think it is a bit silly- it should never be a case of qualifications or experiance but a balance of both.
 
I think the BHS and there ilk are a bad example of the equine profession and industry and I stand by my comments.
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Just as we treat each horse as an individual each BHS qualified person should surely be treated as such? In any profession there are good and bad practitioners all with the same qualifications, it's not accurate or just to tar all with the same brush.
 
EventingMum said:
Just as we treat each horse as an individual each BHS qualified person should surely be treated as such? In any profession there are good and bad practitioners all with the same qualifications, it's not accurate or just to tar all with the same brush.
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If it is an instructor qualification then the person should be able to instruct to a certain standard, that is the minimum standard for those who pass, obviously some will be much better and will gain experience over time, and hopefully the better ones will go on to higher levels.
 
MrsD123 said:
If it is an instructor qualification then the person should be able to instruct to a certain standard, that is the minimum standard for those who pass, obviously some will be much better and will gain experience over time, and hopefully the better ones will go on to higher levels.
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Totally agree all should be competent to a certain standard, what I don't agree with is that all with BHS qualifications are a bad example.
 
I have recently graduated from an Equine Studies BSc and think it was in incredibly useful thing to have done. I like to think I understand what "proper" science is after spending 2 years training to be a vet and being taught by true experts in each field of veterinary medicine. The equine degrees strike a difficult balance between being academic enough to fit the requirements of a degree programme while also trying to keep it relevant to the industry and allow for practical experiences. Our degree was actually limited to only having a ridden module in the first year as the accrediting university wouldn't allow it in later years as it wasnt deemed "academic" enough!!

On my course we spent a month doing a work placement in the industry in whatever sector we chose and through this i established what I really wanted to get into after graduating, the physical therapy side of things. This gave everyone a chance to see what areas they enjoyed and of course, to gain practical experience. We were also examined on our riding skills both on the flat and jumping with an emphasis on being able to evaluate our performance and the horses' way of going rather than just being perfect at riding! The point being, it is ok to make a mistake as long as you can identify it and know how to correct it for the future.

Our BSc also ran in tandem with an FdSc (foundation degree) programme which incorporated a lot more practical work, doing yard work at college, more riding instruction and a second year work placement as well. These 2 different courses allowed students to choose if they would rather have a more practical based education perhaps more suited to those wanting to work hands-on with horses on yards etc compared to the BSc which was more geared towards pure academia and maybe those who want to continue in education.

Generally speaking, the degree taught all of us to critically evaluate information and practices within the industry rather than just blindly following one approach or believing one theory without suitable justification. We also had to do our own research project which required a lot of organisation and dedication. All in all, it may seem that these degrees aren't useful to those who have been working with horses all their lives, but aside from the information we are taught, degree students are also given more general life skills and a different way of thinkinh that can be applied to any situation, with or without horses.

Sorry for the long post!
 
I worked at various yards when I was younger, with every kind of horse imaginable. I never bothered to get the qualifications as it all seemed a bit pointless, the whole 'by the book' way which no one uses in real life. I came across more than my fair share of piece of paper wavers, who were always absolutely USELESS! Experience over bits of paper when it comes to horses.
 
classicalfan said:
Shilasdair, I did exactly that, which is why I chose to comment. I trained in both uSA, Germany and Spain, so I feel my comments are justified. I think the BHS and there ilk are a bad example of the equine profession and industry and I stand by my comments.
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I agree with you, classicalfan. My experiences with BHS instructors has always been a poor one, and most of them just don't seem to be at a standard. They don't pick out obvious flaws, and very shouty and aggressive. That I dislike.


My favourite trainers are the classical ones, especially from Portugal and France. If you want a good riding training, that's definitely the place to go (and where I will be going hehe)
 
I think, maybe, those who think they mean nothing, should actually look at the Syllabus for each exam and see what is actually involved before rendering them useless!
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I don't think the qualifications themselves mean nothing - obviously the things you have to do at each certain level prove that you are of a certain standard and you then have an official qualification to certify that.

But to me it makes no difference either way. And by that I mean that you can be just as experienced and competent without having any formal qualifications.

If I was choosing an instructor I would choose someone whose knowledge I really respect - who can give excellent advice about my riding or how to bring a horse on - generally somebody who has produced horses themselves to a certain level and competed successfully (though not necessarily!), and who can impart their knowledge in a clear and useful way.

Whether that person has any formal qualification wouldn't make any difference to me.

In fact the very fact that there are top level eventers who haven't been able to pass the exam only reaffirms my opinion that there is more than one way to skin a cat and you can be an expert even if your way isn't the BHS way.
 
If I, as an employer had two candidates for the same post, both with the same equine and competition experience but only one with the bhs qualifications then this Would be the one I would go with.
The qualification tells me That they are deemed competant. Their portfolios tell me That they have gained the relevant experience at each level.
I think too many people think an AI qualification should mean That the person should be an expert instructor
This is not the case , it stands for ASSISTANT INSTRUCTOR. This means that they are still learning and gaining experience. To be an AI you teach To stage two level, a lead rein or a Lunge lesson. It is the basic exam for starting out. Once you get to intermediate level then You start to teach To a competition level.
Of course, the higher the qualifications the more expensive They become. Many people Would rather pay less, have an AI and Then complain about the standard. Its like having open heart surgery and expecting the assistant nurse to peform it!
 
charlie76 said:
Oh And there is no bhs way, there may have been at one time but now you are encouraged To train using your own ideas .
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I really hope this is true, when i did my stages, not that long ago i used to get really pissed off that you were expected to not deviate from the BHS way, i used to get fed up with their dismissive attitude at people who would think outside the box.
I spoke to Sylvia Loch about it and was also heartened to hear she was liasing with Patrick Print to look at the teaching and exam structure.
 
xspiralx said:
In fact the very fact that there are top level eventers who haven't been able to pass the exam only reaffirms my opinion that there is more than one way to skin a cat and you can be an expert even if your way isn't the BHS way.
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BUT - those who have failed to pass their exams are often those who have been priveliged enough to mainly ride competition horses and genuinely struggle with the sort of horses available in exams. And before somebody says this is a bad reflection on the exams, the exam horses are much more akin to grassroots and lower level horses - even FBHS instructors will tell you they are the bread and butter of your clients, 90% or more! I have seen and heard more than one pro riders (yes, top level, including an List 1 judge/rider) say you wouldn't get them onto half the horses which many of us make a living from.

Also, the ability to teach is COMPLETELY seperate to the ability to ride. I know a superb rider, could make a Blackpool Donkey look like a HOYS winner, but she cannot teach - not so much becuse of an inability to do it but, by her own admission, a complete lack of patience. Another superb show groom could not teach how to turnout a show horse because he couldn't explain what he did or see how someone elses technique differed to his own - just how the end result was different. On the other hand, my riding is nowhere near the standard of my teaching - hence I need and am seeking further experience and training before I can take the Senior Equitation certificate - but, I know what I'm looking for and how to help people improve it. The results and feedback from my clients have shown this.
 
charlie76 said:
Oh And there is no bhs way, there may have been at one time but now you are encouraged To train using your own ideas .
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Well that's good - but my point still stands - that if there are people who are at the top level in their sport but who cannot pass the BHS exams, then there must be some kind of 'BHS' way to do things, but it doesn't mean that these people don't have anything valuable to teach.

I have no idea whether a lot of really top competitors hold their BHS qualifications but I'd still bite my arm off to have a lesson with them.
 
absolutely jack-shyte

it means nowt TBHif someone has studied at college (usually means mummy and daddy can afford to send the little darling) or the university of life (usually means mummy and daddy havent funded jack diddly)

what is a piece of paper?
 
This is a very interesting thread.

For what its worth, I think that the BHSI is a very high level qualification, so congratulations to those of you that have achieved it or are near to it. I would be honoured to have lessons from someone with their I. Most BHSIIs that I have met have been fantastic instructors too, and plenty of AIs. As an AI, I think that my forté is teaching the lower level of riders - children and novice/nervous riders.

I don't work with horses anymore. I still teach occasionally at pony club etc, and have done so all over the country. When I've moved areas I have been able to ring the local DC, introduce myself and get some teaching work. This would have been harder to do as an unqualified instructor. Most riding and pony clubs also pay a higher rate to qualified instructors. To be unqualified and known locally is fine up to a point, but only in your "small pond"..

I think that the pc exams are quite different to the BHS ones. As I passed my stage 3, another girl at pony club failed hers. She had always had very good ponies, and went on to later do high level dressage and get her A test, but she was not so good on the more standard horse. I was probably the oposite, could ride most things, but hadn't competed to as higer level as her as I'd not had the horse power.. To me, the exams were different directions really, if you know what I mean!

I did my AI over 25 years ago, and it was not that easy to get, despite what many people on here seem to think. I had already been working with horses for five years when I became qualified. I know quite a few young ladies locally who have failed their stage 3, and they are fanatastic riders. I've also met quite a few "behavioural experts" with equine degrees locally, who have no other experience than the essays that they wrote at uni, yet they have set themselves up as experts, and plenty of local novices think that their degree makes them better than a lowly BHS instructor. That is quite dangerous in my opinion.

My son went to Myerscough for his pony club camp this year, and I thought, on looking at the facilities there, how do these students cope when they get out on a yard where everything isn't all singing all dancing..

As for having lessons myself, I still occasionally have lessons with a BHSII that has taught me for years (and really should have done her I), but I also have lessons with unqualified people who specialise in certain areas, such as pure show jumping.. At the end of the day its finding an instructor that you gel with and who works for you..
 
People who don't rate the exam system don't know how flipping hard they are to pass!!! If most people had a read through a syllabus they would be scratching their heads!!!

There are so many know it alls in the horse world that really have very limited knowledge/ experience.

Of course there are lots of people who have no qualifications who are superb horseman too.
 
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'S'teamed said:
absolutely jack-shyte

it means nowt TBHif someone has studied at college (usually means mummy and daddy can afford to send the little darling) or the university of life (usually means mummy and daddy havent funded jack diddly)

what is a piece of paper?
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Firstly, college is usually funded by the government not people's parents so I think this statement is totally incorrect. Its more likely that people with horsey experience had mummy and daddy buying them a pony when they were little. I know my coursemates were from a wide variety of backgrounds, many of whom had been studying horses since they left school and were working their way up through the academic system. Some had vast amounts of experience, some less so and then everything in between.

Secondly, I dont know why people get hung up on the "piece of paper" thing. Its not the paper a qualification is printed on that matters, it is that it represents the time and effort put into it and the information and learning that has been imparted onto the student. Qualifications, if nothing else, prove that someone was interested enough in the subject to study for a period of time to learn and achieve something. Even if that says nothing for their actual experience or knowledge, it at least shows you the type of person they are.
 
xspiralx said:
I have no idea whether a lot of really top competitors hold their BHS qualifications but I'd still bite my arm off to have a lesson with them.
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Ah, but they're not always great. One example of this -
A local riding club camp, ex-olympic team member instructing the XC, lots of novice and nervous riders on the camp. Olympic instructor refused to teach 40% of the clients, saying they weren't fit to be on a XC! Some of the same riders came to a XC clinic that I did, and did really well after a lot of encouragement over tiny logs etc. Perhaps because I could understand more that some people get nervous over the tiniest of fences - because I do too sometimes.. Sometimes top riders are so brave/talented that they can't understand why some of us aren't!
Another example - Ollie Townend is great teaching lower level people because one of the yards that he worked at as a working pupil insisted he worked in their riding school too, so he learned how to work with lower end riders.
 
Honey08 - you are so very right.

There are many top riders out thre that are hopeless instructors, they have no empathy or ability to pass on their knowledge. It has come so easy to them or they are fearless.

This has been one of my biggest complaints to the ESNZ regarding a pre requisite for their teaching qualifications that state the instructor must have competed succesfully at the level they are teaching at. Also that they must have brought on a competitor succcesfully to the required level for a set period of time.

Both are rediculous criteria. Firstly there are some people that don't want to compete, have never had the chance to have a horse to compete at that level, or the funds to compete at top level, or have spent their time teaching rather than competing. I have a friend who passed her PC 'A' with honours - in UK and one of the youngest they have ever passed. She is also a full BHSI. She is a fantastic coach but has never had the money to have a horse to compete at top level. If she doesn't teach she has no income.

Secondly, clients are often very fickle people, they support the current instructor 'in fashion'. Can you imagine what it would be like to teach a rider for 22 months and for them to shift to a different instructor 2 months before your 'criteria' has been reached.

BHS system is based on the 'Classical' methods used by the Spanish Riding School. The methods used have stood the test of time, are safe for both horse, handler and rider, are progressive and also provide a 'standard' - meaning that you can move from one end of the country to the other and be taught in a similar manner.

There will always be good and indifferent instructors at any level - same as with riders. Some people are really talented instructors while others are very uninteresting.

In NZ qualified instructors are in the minority and this makes finding a coach for any rider difficult. Some are very popular and the teaching quality is poor, only yesterday one rider with a 4year old horse was lamenting that her horse was lazy. Her coach wanted to put spurs on her to 'wake up' her horse. The rider didn't want to use them. I explained to the rider that some horses are slower than others to pick up on the correct response and that she could help a great deal by riding with a more positive mind, and a schooling whip. She allowed another more experienced rider to hop on her horse and the difference was visible within minutes. Rider now knows what to do without resorting to spurs.

Quality control is only achieved through setting a standard, failing those that don't reach it and passing those that do.

BHS exams are recognised the world over as good qualifications.
 
I Have had Lessons with the top trainers in country and most have been useless. They have no idea How to empathise with the rider.
For those That think that the fact top riders fail to get the qualifications prove the bhs is rubbish are mistaken. The reason they fail is usually because They have failed To develop the teachi g skills required at that level (even down to the way you project your voice ) or They are not used to riding the typical school type horses They Are given. Rather than not being able to produce results They tend To over ride the horse and over demanding of the older stiffer horse you are likely to get.
 
To add re the college comment. I visited a Well known equine college last week and had a behind the scenes tour. .. over half the students There had either come from broken homes or have not got on well at school. They are all on government funded courses. The comment about rich little girls buying qualifications is total rubbish! None of my apprentices could afford a horse, they put in the hours to gain What They have learnt.
 
I have learnt from everything I've done. I have a National Diploma (riding twice a day included 5 days a week and 7 days yard duties every 3 weeks)
A foundation degree and a BA Hons in Equine Leisure Management. Taught me a lot, but I also have my own experience through having my own horses. The degree taught me marketing, strategic management, event management. National diploma taught me biology, horse management, yard skills, ailments, and about riding different horses
 
Qualifications have their place tho I'd question where they were obained from.

I did a semester at a well known equine collage and I couldnt have stuck it out any longer - it was a joke tbh. I didn't consider myself an expert but I knew information I was being given at times was wrong which added to the attitude of the staff made it unberable there.

A few years later I decided to do my BHS stage one. Studied for it and passed but OMG it was awful. The examiners were so rude! I actually put a complaint in and I rarely complain about anything. A girl whose mother hunted with one of the examiners and also placed the examiners horse in a show the previous weekend passed despite not putting a martingale on correctly, messing up the rug, not knowing what the feeds were and crying when her horse spooked :rolleyes: Totally put me off them tbh tho I did go back later and sit my riding and road safety - different examiners and they were lovely tho the center left a lot to be desired.

I've also done my NVQs. I took these at an excellent riding school - run as a really tight ship, nothing was let slide. I learned loads that I didn't know before even tho by this point I'd had my own horse for several years. I now consider myself to be a much better owner and rider because of this however I know of people who have done NVQs at other centres and I wouldn't trust them with my horses...
 
I think if your new to horses and have the spare time and money it can be very benefical, especially if your at a yard without experienced people to help should you have a problem. the stages they do at my yard teach about feed, grooming, tack etc. the sort of things which seem very simple to those who hae always been arounf horses but totally mind bogeling to those who havnt.
so i wouldnt personally get them myself and i certainly dont think because something has them that they know more about horses, even experienced vets get things wrong occasionally.
 
lassiesuca said:
Just a question into your opinions- what's your opinion on people with BHS qualifications, diplomas in equine care etc- does that make them more experienced and therefore their opinion to be absolutely correct? So many people I know around here come out of the local college waving their wee NVQ or whatever shouting out to anyone who dares disagree that they are right and far more experienced because they have qualification x, y and z. I have no intention to study any sort course once I've left sixth form (going to Uni to do languages), but I just think there's a lot of stigma around the equine qualification and whether it really means that much?


What do you think? Is it a worthless qualification?
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i spent a year studying for my AI in Cornwall and it was the making of my career in caring for horses. i walked into my first job with ease,in NH racing which i adored, so as far as i'm concerned it was an unbelievable 12 months and i learnt so much,i even framed my certificate-----
 
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