House Training - caught in the act

Fools Motto said:
…….. , but at the moment, we're speaking different languages.
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And the only one who understands English, at the moment, is you. At 13 weeks I suspect that you may have skipped over the vital days of initial contact, at least, that's how it seems to me.

When things go wrong with dogs, then we return to the start, and we start again. I would expect a 13 week old pup to be clean, at least overnight. Were the pup dirty in the evening, and whilst in my company, then I'd be looking at myself.

I've never ever had a house living dog which has been dirty indoors, beyond the 4-5 day period, and most within 2 days. Is it you, or is it the puppy, do you suppose? Not having a dig, just pointing out facts.

Alec.
 
RunToEarth said:
She is a young puppy. She should not be shouted at, told off, smacked when she messes inside. You need to praise her when she goes outside - my code name was "wee wees" and outside wees were rewarded. Inside wees were completely ignored, she needs to go out every half an hour at least as a puppy, and when she does outside wees, reward it with a praising "wee wees" and a pet on a little treat. Puppies wonder when they are looking for wee places, so that is your que to shout "wee wees" and usher her outside.

House training is hard but shouting and smacking is only going to make things worse.
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All of this. Frightening her by smacking her will make her worse and will encourage her to hide accidents. She's a BABY. It's not her fault, it's yours. Don't let her be so active, confine her by using a crate, you will probably need to make her rest, I did with mine. Stick her in a crate and move the crate as needed so she's not alone. Alternatively, if the weather is ok, leave the back door open so she can come and go as she pleases.

The best thing my parents in law ever did for us was dog sit brand new puppies for two days (sourced a lot quicker than we'd expected). They were experienced springer owners and put the pups in the corridor overnight rather than let them have the run of the kitchen. They were toilet trained when we got back. The others were crate trained and a smaller space helps. We did the same with my bil's springer last year when he couldn't take him for two weeks. He was crate and toilet trained when he went home.
 
amymay said:
So within 4-5 days of getting a (say) 10 week old pup, Alec, you've completely house trained them?
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Yes. OK so the odd slip up, every other day perhaps, but even then, after about a week, that's it. Ok, and just to give this a bit of balance, there was Nan, a lurcher bitch. I didn't get her until she was 16 weeks, and after an hour outside, she'd come straight back in the house and dump on the floor and she was still filthy at 12 months (I persevered!). She went to live in my workshop. There will be the odd dog which has no sense of cleanliness, but generally, most dogs actually want to be clean, and will be, given the opportunity.

Alec.
 
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This is our current set up.They are contained in a small room, about 6ft x 14ft together. Rosie is in her crate, but the door is open at night, but I'm starting to convince OH to close it, so slowly during the time we are here, it will be closed. Think we're about the 30-40 min mark before we let her out and go outside.

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amymay said:
So within 4-5 days of getting a (say) 10 week old pup, Alec, you've completely house trained them?
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I would expect that too, with something easy like a lab. Ours go out every 30 minutes (20 for the first week!) and we watch them like hawks. I wouldn't expect therm not to need watching after 5 days but I don't expect to be doing any cleaning up. If we get an accident after that is is usually if they are playing and it comes out mid gallop!
Ours sleep in a crate overnight and are left all night from the first night and last two have both been clean from scratch, left for 7 hours.
My lurcher was the hardest as she was 2 years old, I did smack her once in the end and it worked.

FM - as she is 'allowed' to pee/poo in the house when left then she doesn't seperate it as clearly in her mind, IMO. Ours are quick because we aim to have NO wees or poos in the house, ever, so there is no demarkation line. We are also lucky that we don't have to leave them alone for long from as soon as they come home.
 
Clodagh said:
My lurcher was the hardest as she was 2 years old, I did smack her once in the end and it worked.
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I've been reading this thread with interest, seeing all the dire warnings about how you can't house train puppies by getting cross or punishing them.

I completely understand that things have moved on and there are other effective ways of training puppies. But fifty years ago, everyone I know trained puppies by 'rubbing their noses in it' (not usually literally) and telling them off, and sometimes smacking them. It was the accepted way of house training a puppy. My parents trained two pups that way and they were quickly clean dogs. All my friends and family trained their dogs that way and I don't remember anyone with a dirty dog. It certainly does work, so why is it now the belief that it doesn't?
 
ycbm said:
I've been reading this thread with interest, seeing all the dire warnings about how you can't house train puppies by getting cross or punishing them.

I completely understand that things have moved on and there are other effective ways of training puppies. But fifty years ago, everyone I know trained puppies by 'rubbing their noses in it' (not usually literally) and telling them off, and sometimes smacking them. It was the accepted way of house training a puppy. My parents trained two pups that way and they were quickly clean dogs. All my friends and family trained their dogs that way and I don't remember anyone with a dirty dog. It certainly does work, so why is it now the belief that it doesn't?
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I beg to differ! Not everybody did it that way, I still remember pups I had forty-five years ago and I never chastised pups physically. Older dogs who should know better, occasionally yes, like my GSD thinking she could help herself to the hens' eggs.
 
I absolutely agree with you ycbm. I think nowadays though I would expect you to show a dog the right way, and give it a chance to do the right thing, and then smack it if it persists in doing the wrong thing. We used to smack pups when I was young, but nowadays and looking back I don't think it got anyone anywhere quicker than the kind option.
Overall training I rarely tell a dog off but my young lab would not sit and stay the other day, we were dogging in and I needed her to wait while I climbed through a ditch, she moved twice and the second time I scruffed her. Worked a treat!
 
ycbm said:
I've been reading this thread with interest, seeing all the dire warnings about how you can't house train puppies by getting cross or punishing them.

I completely understand that things have moved on and there are other effective ways of training puppies. But fifty years ago, everyone I know trained puppies by 'rubbing their noses in it' (not usually literally) and telling them off, and sometimes smacking them. It was the accepted way of house training a puppy. My parents trained two pups that way and they were quickly clean dogs. All my friends and family trained their dogs that way and I don't remember anyone with a dirty dog. It certainly does work, so why is it now the belief that it doesn't?
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Because if you can effectively house training them without shouting, smacking and rubbing their noses in it, why on earth would you choose not to?

My dogs are working dogs, I want them to trust me from being young puppies, to actually WANT to be around me - that is the basis for any kind of training, IMO.

Yelling at them for reasons they will not understand as a young puppy will not instil any trust in me, it just encourages puppies not to mess around me, which makes training a lot harder, because then they won't go when I'm with them outside, walking etc.
 
I haven't read all the comments, but I also have an ESS pup. He is coming up to ten weeks old, and is very intelligent, which is both a blessing and a curse!

He always comes as soon as I call him (for now!) and sits when asked. He is, however, nowhere near house trained, and I wouldn't expect him to be for several weeks at least. If he wee's or poo's in the house we ignore it. It is totally our fault for not keeping an eye on him, and you do need eyes in the back of your head! I take him out when he wakes, when he has been playing for a while, and sometimes just because I think he might need to go. We still have accidents though. He is caged at night, and either in his cage or outdoor kennel when we are out or busy in the day.

I can't imagine why someone would expect a 13 week old to be 100% clean and dry.
 
I did not say everyone, planete,, I said everyone I knew. Clearly, I didn't know you :)

I did not say anyone would want to, Run to Earth, in fact I made it clear that I understood why they would not. I commented on why people were saying that it would not work when it does.
 
ycbm said:
I've been reading this thread with interest, seeing all the dire warnings about how you can't house train puppies by getting cross or punishing them.

I completely understand that things have moved on and there are other effective ways of training puppies. But fifty years ago, everyone I know trained puppies by 'rubbing their noses in it' (not usually literally) and telling them off, and sometimes smacking them. It was the accepted way of house training a puppy. My parents trained two pups that way and they were quickly clean dogs. All my friends and family trained their dogs that way and I don't remember anyone with a dirty dog. It certainly does work, so why is it now the belief that it doesn't?
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Puppies are essentially like toddlers. If you had a 2 year old that you were potty training and they peed on the floor would you smack them and push their nose in it? Because that's essentially what you're doing to a puppy. People aren't saying that smacking them, yelling at them, and pushing their face into poo/wee will create a dirty dog. It may hurt them mentally instead. I've heard of dogs who were punished for toiletting indoors and subsequently began eating their own poo as quickly as possible afterwards to avoid leaving traces of the mess and being punished for it so in the long run you can do a lot of damage.

OP - I think your problem is that the lines are being blurred. Your pup clearly can't hold it for 2 hours so poos/wees inside. Unless you're cleaning the area with biological cleaners, she can smell her wee on the floor and now thinks that's where she should go. You also clearly need to get up at night to take her outside to toilet. If you set 1-2 alarms, get up and take her out then eventually you can push back the times until it's 1 time out in the night and eventually holding it all night. Her bladder and bowel are tiny at this point, she physically can't hold it, and because she toilets indoors when you're not there in her mind unless she's outside with you she's allowed to go inside.
 
Puppies, in respect of toilet training, are nothing like toddlers. Toddlers do not mark their territory by urinating and defecating, and dogs do. Toddlers are being trained to go from a state of being unable to control when and where they urinate and defecate, to recognition and control of those functions. Puppies have control but have to be taught where is appropriate, otherwise they would wear nappies like babies do. Lots of dogs eat dog poo, it's a problem that is often discussed on this forum.

Why are so many people so determined to believe that methods that were recommended at the time did not work when they did? I can't remember a single poo eating, house soiling dog from my childhood and every dog I knew had been house trained the same way. Two of our own, dozens belonging to friends and family.

I'll repeat, I am NOT suggesting that it was better, just that it worked, contrary to what is being said on this thread.
 
50+ years ago my parents always house trained our pups the same way as ycbm describes, with noses rubbed into 'accidents'. All the pups (usually golden retrievers) were house trained quickly and easily, and definitely weren't screwed up mentally. It was simply how it was commonly done at that time.

Would I house train a pup like that now? No. I would follow more humane methods, things have moved on.
 
amymay said:
So within 4-5 days of getting a (say) 10 week old pup, Alec, you've completely house trained them?
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When we got our pup (she was 7 weeks then), she was completely house-trained (day and night) within a fortnight. And she has continued that way (bar one accident when she had an upset tum and we were out) - she is ten now. Much of it is timing and observation, and the more time and attention you can give them in the first week or so, the more you can guarantee they will do their business outdoors and stay in the habit of doing so. The more they get in the habit of going indoors, the more likely they are to repeat it.
 
I'm truly gobsmacked.

Daisy was clean within a month of us getting her (12 weeks), but would have the odd accident (and I was very vigilant). She was 8 months old before I was able to stop watching her like a hawk though.

She never messed overnight, because I'd set alarms to take her out.
 
Do think some are harder to sort than others. Our schkipperke was a nightmare for peeing in the kitchen late at night, no matter how late I walked him or took him into garden, until about two years old.
Since then, he has been a saint. Now, he is ancient and I think a bit demented. He is still generally good as gold, but did forget the other night and cocked his leg in the kitchen just where he used to do it as a youngster - despite fact I had taken him out just five minutes before.
 
There's no question that as with all aspects of canines, some pick up the need to be clean almost immediately (most in my experience), some take some while for the penny to drop, and then there are those which are never clean, don't understand the need to be clean or the displeasure that it causes. Once a puppy understands what the backdoor's for then any blatant and witnessed peeing on the floor, earns a growl and one that I mean.

One thing that I did learn years ago when puppies are left overnight, and generally in the kitchen, is when I come down stairs, in total silence and without saying a word to the pup, I open the door for them to go out. Greeting the pup in the morning generally has them peeing with delight. Counterproductive! When I lived alone, then new house living pups generally spent the first few nights on my bed with me, and then as soon as I woke (or more likely they woke me), I'd pick them up and straight outside. Mostly, that's how it works for me, but there really are no hard and fast rules.

Alec.
 
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amymay said:
I'm truly gobsmacked.

Daisy was clean within a month of us getting her (12 weeks), but would have the odd accident (and I was very vigilant). She was 8 months old before I was able to stop watching her like a hawk though.

She never messed overnight, because I'd set alarms to take her out.
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Did you crate, Amymay? I must confess it was the first time I'd used one and I was a little dubious, but it was recommended by the breeder of our pup, who is also an experienced animal trainer. I had initially a little portable plastic crate (which I could move to various locations in the house so pup didn't feel isolated), and then a bigger standard metal one. Pup was crated overnight and would have a late night session in the garden. OH was always up very early for work so would let her out then, and then return her to the crate until I got up an hour later. During the day, she would be put out in the garden immediately after a feed or a nap, when they are likely to wee. If I couldn't watch her like a hawk (so when working on the computer, or making dinner or suchlike) I would pop her in the crate for a while, and immediately after taking her out would pop her in the garden.

Because this is the first one I crated, I'm not sure whether I was incredibly lucky and she was genetically easy to housetrain, or whether the crating system (used correctly) made the difference.
 
my setter only ever peed once in the house when a pup and that was the first day we had him. Due to a house move being set back a month, he spent the first month with us in a flat so house training involved stairs. He's only ever pooped in the house when he's been poorly and we've not woken up/he's not managed to wake us in time.
I don't expect a dog to be 100% clean for up to a year but judicial use of a crate, being attentive and setting the pup up for success (by not leaving them too long).
 
TGM said:
Did you crate, Amymay?
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No, thought about it, but that was about it. I can understand the benefits, but didn't want to go down that particular route.

I've since heard that Bichon's can be difficult to get totally clean in the house - who knows. I think the later accidents were simply down to me taking my eye off the ball occasionally.
 
Alec Swan said:
There's no question that as with all aspects of canines, some pick up the need to be clean almost immediately (most in my experience), some take some while for the penny to drop, and then there are those which are never clean, don't understand the need to be clean or the displeasure that it causes. Once a puppy understands what the backdoor's for then any blatant and witnessed peeing on the floor, earns a growl and one that I mean.

One thing that I did learn years ago when puppies are left overnight, and generally in the kitchen, is when I come down stairs, in total silence and without saying a word to the pup, I open the door for them to go out. Greeting the pup in the morning generally has them peeing with delight. Counterproductive! When I lived alone, then new house living pups generally spent the first few nights on my bed with me, and then as soon as I woke (or more likely they woke me), I'd pick them up and straight outside. Mostly, that's how it works for me, but there really are no hard and fast rules.

Alec.
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Ignoring them as you walk in and getting guests to do the same was a great thing we did. It meant I wasn't wading through two excitable puppies and they don't do the jumping up thing, although one has an odd habit of 'springing' up to head height sometimes! Straight to the door and out does help with training, no touch, no talk, no eye contact to quote he who shall not be an,ed.

I confess I used to pop bil's pup in bed between me and the OH every morning after his 4am wee, rather than put him back in his cage. It stopped him whinging and let me sleep. :redface3:
 
ycbm said:
I'll repeat, I am NOT suggesting that it was better, just that it worked, contrary to what is being said on this thread.
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I will respond because I am one who stated that smacking puppies wouldn't work.

I wasn't exclusively talking about house training, more training in general. ESS are a working breed and need a job. IMO the first few months of training rely on your puppy wanting to be around you, and shouting at it for things it doesn't understand it has done wrong, doesn't instil any bond or trust. I fully accept it may have been the thing to do 50years ago, but that doesn't make it a good training technique.
 
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