House Training - caught in the act

[shergar]

Puppies are essentially like toddlers. If you had a 2 year old that you were potty training and they peed on the floor would you smack them and push their nose in it? Because that's essentially what you're doing to a puppy. People aren't saying that smacking them, yelling at them, and pushing their face into poo/wee will create a dirty dog. It may hurt them mentally instead. I've heard of dogs who were punished for toiletting indoors and subsequently began eating their own poo as quickly as possible afterwards to avoid leaving traces of the mess and being punished for it so in the long run you can do a lot of damage.

OP - I think your problem is that the lines are being blurred. Your pup clearly can't hold it for 2 hours so poos/wees inside. Unless you're cleaning the area with biological cleaners, she can smell her wee on the floor and now thinks that's where she should go. You also clearly need to get up at night to take her outside to toilet. If you set 1-2 alarms, get up and take her out then eventually you can push back the times until it's 1 time out in the night and eventually holding it all night. Her bladder and bowel are tiny at this point, she physically can't hold it, and because she toilets indoors when you're not there in her mind unless she's outside with you she's allowed to go inside.

This was a tip given to me by a dog trainer when I had to house train three border collie pups at the same time ,to remove all smell where the pup has made a mess clean the floor with vinegar and water mix ,or a NON BIO soap powder in water . A lot of general house hold cleaners contain enzymes and they seem to encourage the pup to go mess in the same place .

 

[Clodagh]

I will respond because I am one who stated that smacking puppies wouldn't work.

I wasn't exclusively talking about house training, more training in general. ESS are a working breed and need a job. IMO the first few months of training rely on your puppy wanting to be around you, and shouting at it for things it doesn't understand it has done wrong, doesn't instil any bond or trust. I fully accept it may have been the thing to do 50years ago, but that doesn't make it a good training technique.

With regards to house training I was thinking about this last night - I wonder if the puppies became trained anyway, smack or not, as the rest of the procedures follwed were the same as today, watch, moniter, offer plenty of opportunities to go. So being cross or not might have been totally irrelevant to the learning process. What do you think ycbm?

 

[ycbm]

With regards to house training I was thinking about this last night - I wonder if the puppies became trained anyway, smack or not, as the rest of the procedures follwed were the same as today, watch, moniter, offer plenty of opportunities to go. So being cross or not might have been totally irrelevant to the learning process. What do you think ycbm?

I was talking to the OH about this and he suggested that puppy training is very much about establishing that the house is your territory and unavailable for marking by the puppy with his/her smell. It would explain why both methods work, and also why one smack worked with your particularly difficult dog. So, yes, provided you could completely remove all trace of smell, then I think the puppy would learn that anyway.

It's good that people have discovered growling does the same thing and smacking is usually unnecessary, but I doubt if anyone is talking about smacking which would actually hurt the dog any more than we all go out and beat our horses just because a tap down the shoulder is effective in enhancing a leg aid.

 

[Harleygirl]

Puppies, in respect of toilet training, are nothing like toddlers. Toddlers do not mark their territory by urinating and defecating, and dogs do. Toddlers are being trained to go from a state of being unable to control when and where they urinate and defecate, to recognition and control of those functions. Puppies have control but have to be taught where is appropriate, otherwise they would wear nappies like babies do. Lots of dogs eat dog poo, it's a problem that is often discussed on this forum.

Same with puppies. They can't control their bladders/bowels and can go from happily wandering about/playing/whatever to peeing/pooing because they're also learning the feeling of needing to go which is why you need to be vigilant about taking them out. When they start to learn the feelings of needing to wee/poo and you've been bringing them outside and praising them for going they learn that they're meant to go outside. In terms of the dog I was talking about, he wasn't just wandering the garden eating his own poo. He would have an accident in the house and because he was given out to/smacked/whatever in his previous home, he would bolt it down out of fear and very often puke it back up and eat it again before his owners could clean it up/take it off him. It was very distressing for both dog and owner and it took a very long time to convince him that they weren't going to smack him for toiletting indoors.

This was a tip given to me by a dog trainer when I had to house train three border collie pups at the same time ,to remove all smell where the pup has made a mess clean the floor with vinegar and water mix ,or a NON BIO soap powder in water . A lot of general house hold cleaners contain enzymes and they seem to encourage the pup to go mess in the same place .

Oops, couldn't remember if it was Bio or Non-Bio washing powder, you're right though!

I was talking to the OH about this and he suggested that puppy training is very much about establishing that the house is your territory and unavailable for marking by the puppy with his/her smell. It would explain why both methods work, and also why one smack worked with your particularly difficult dog. So, yes, provided you could completely remove all trace of smell, then I think the puppy would learn that anyway.

At 12 weeks, I doubt a puppy is marking its territory. It suddenly has to pee so it goes and it tends to go where it smells it has peed before. That's not marking it's territory to say "that's my pee spot" it's more "this smells like where I've gone before which must be a safe spot to pee". As mentioned above, non-bio washing powder dissolved in water will remove the smell.

 

[ycbm]

Harleygirl overnight crate training would not work if a puppy had the low level of control over its bladder and bowels that you are suggesting, would it?

I also see no difference in terms of training requirement between the action of recognising that territory is yours because you have deliberately peed there in the past or just happened to pee there in the past. The job of the human is to teach the puppy that the inside of the house is not territory which belongs to them to use that way.

If cats are anything to go by, laundry stain remover spray will also remove the smell and you don't need to wash it out after you've sprayed. I've never tried it with puppies, though.

 

[twiggy2]

Puppies, in respect of toilet training, are nothing like toddlers. Toddlers do not mark their territory by urinating and defecating, and dogs do. Toddlers are being trained to go from a state of being unable to control when and where they urinate and defecate, to recognition and control of those functions. Puppies have control but have to be taught where is appropriate, otherwise they would wear nappies like babies do. Lots of dogs eat dog poo, it's a problem that is often discussed on this forum.

Why are so many people so determined to believe that methods that were recommended at the time did not work when they did? I can't remember a single poo eating, house soiling dog from my childhood and every dog I knew had been house trained the same way. Two of our own, dozens belonging to friends and family.

I'll repeat, I am NOT suggesting that it was better, just that it worked, contrary to what is being said on this thread.

Puppies do not mark their territory, that does not come until they start to mature and adolescence hormones are raging, same with toddlers and older teenage boys-they don't need to announce they are about until they start to mature.
as Alec has mentioned dogs generally like to be clean so will tend to toilet in just one or 2 areas if space is limited as it generally is indoors.
As for the whole territory thing, I like to think the space I share with my dogs is our territory not theirs or mine-but we share it within some rules.

 

[Love_my_Lurcher]

I've been reading this thread with interest, seeing all the dire warnings about how you can't house train puppies by getting cross or punishing them.

I completely understand that things have moved on and there are other effective ways of training puppies. But fifty years ago, everyone I know trained puppies by 'rubbing their noses in it' (not usually literally) and telling them off, and sometimes smacking them. It was the accepted way of house training a puppy. My parents trained two pups that way and they were quickly clean dogs. All my friends and family trained their dogs that way and I don't remember anyone with a dirty dog. It certainly does work, so why is it now the belief that it doesn't?

You more or less said that you don't think there is anything wrong with training puppies the old fashioned way (i.e. smacking them).

Puppies, in respect of toilet training, are nothing like toddlers. Toddlers do not mark their territory by urinating and defecating, and dogs do. Toddlers are being trained to go from a state of being unable to control when and where they urinate and defecate, to recognition and control of those functions. Puppies have control but have to be taught where is appropriate, otherwise they would wear nappies like babies do. Lots of dogs eat dog poo, it's a problem that is often discussed on this forum.

Why are so many people so determined to believe that methods that were recommended at the time did not work when they did? I can't remember a single poo eating, house soiling dog from my childhood and every dog I knew had been house trained the same way. Two of our own, dozens belonging to friends and family.

I'll repeat, I am NOT suggesting that it was better, just that it worked, contrary to what is being said on this thread.

You are again saying that punitive methods worked and are coming over as advocating them.

I haven't seen anyone on this thread advocating physical punishment.

See my responses above and your quoted comments were what led me to post the following.

I find it quite disturbing that there are some on here advocating physical punishment. Why don't you try learning a new craft and I will smack you every time you do something wrong!

 

[Love_my_Lurcher]

Puppies do not mark their territory, that does not come until they start to mature and adolescence hormones are raging, same with toddlers and older teenage boys-they don't need to announce they are about until they start to mature.
as Alec has mentioned dogs generally like to be clean so will tend to toilet in just one or 2 areas if space is limited as it generally is indoors.
As for the whole territory thing, I like to think the space I share with my dogs is our territory not theirs or mine-but we share it within some rules.

Great post!

 

[ycbm]

You more or less said that you don't think there is anything wrong with training puppies the old fashioned way (i.e. smacking them).



You are again saying that punitive methods worked and are coming over as advocating them.



See my responses above and your quoted comments were what led me to post the following.

I cannot prevent you from reading what you choose to read into what I write in spite of the fact that I repeatedly explicitly state that is not the case. It is part of the price we pay for using a forum

 

[Dobiegirl]

I didnt read it as advocating punishment either just meaning these old practices worked and they have dropped out of favour. My family used these methods years ago as did friends but I would no more rub a pups nose in it then I would fly to the moon.


We bought a puppy 4years ago and we crate trained her using Caylas excellent guide and our pup rarely had an accident and if she did it was down to us either expecting too much of her or missing the signals. I much prefer modern methods to the old ones and have even used it with foster dogs who were not house trained, give me a pup any day of the week than an adult unhouse trained dog.

 

[varkie]

Over the years I have successfully toilet trained quite a few dogs & puppies now, including one adult female who had come out of a puppy farm, and had no concept of not pooing and laying in it.

I use a crate to train mine. The crate is not a punishment - we teach them that it's a safe place where nice things happen. We put it in a corner visible but out of the way. Bigger is not better - it needs to be big enough for them to lay out flat comfortably, and sit upright comfortably, but no bigger - bigger, and they will tend to compartmentalise - sleep one half, mess the other. We feed them in the crate, put toys in there, and comfy bedding and tempt them in there with treats. Initially, we just concentrate on getting them to like the crate, and seeing it as a lovely place, when they first come to us. I devote much of the first couple of days to watching them, until I have the crate to use. We actually tend to have three crates - bedroom (our dogs sleep in the bedroom under the bed), lounge & car - meaning the dog can be moved about, but still be crated.

Once you can use the crate, life gets slightly easier. If you cannot watch the dog, it goes in the crate. You never punish the dog for having an accident - any accidents are your fault for not watching the dog close enough, and missing the signs. When my dogs are not crated, I watch them every single second. I also take them out to pee every thirty minutes, before meals, after meals, as soon as we're out of bed in the morning (before I go to the loo myself or dress!), before we go to bed at night, also if they start showing signs of wanting to go. Every time you take them out and they pee, use the word you're going to use as a key word and say it - so my latest puppy (now about 18 months old) goes when I say 'have a wee', my middle dog goes if you say 'wee on the grass', I can't remember what words I used with the oldest dog - she was incredibly switched on, and pretty much trained herself - we were lucky. The words don't matter - as long as you use the same ones every single time. After a while, the dog realises that there is an association between peeing and the words you use, and then you'll be able to start using the words and they'll go on command. I can take all of mine outside, and on word command, they'll try to have a wee for me. If you are consistent about watching them, being calm and consistent, and taking them out or crateing them, they are usually toilet trained within one to two weeks. But you have to keep it up for weeks on end, until it's second nature to them. Stop too soon, and they'll make a mistake, and then it's a slippery slope.

 

[deicinmerlyn]

Crating is fine for short periods of time as a safe place and training tool but I hope the OP is not now going to leave her Pup in a crate all day.

 

[Harleygirl]

Harleygirl overnight crate training would not work if a puppy had the low level of control over its bladder and bowels that you are suggesting, would it?

I'm saying overnight the pup can't hold it and can't feel that it has to go so will just go regardless of whether or not it's in a crate. Which is why when you properly crate train a pup it goes in overnight and you take it out a few times to do its business. When it starts to get older and recognise the signs of needing to toilet it won't want to go in its crate which again is why you're preemptively taking it out. When it gets older still you won't need to get up as frequently (from twice to once) to let it out to toilet and eventually it will be able to be left overnight in its crate without messing.

 

[Goldenstar]

I kept my pup in his crate by my bed and got up over night to take him out .
We only had one accident at night .
He's out the crate now ( sleeping on the bed I know I know ) and he's not an accident for weeks .
He's sixteen weeks now I think .

 

[Fools Motto]

No, never all day.
Crating mainly in the evenings as it seems to be her time to have accidents and when we're busy getting the kids to bed, making tea, and having a bath it is ideal.
Saying all that, she has been very good. only 1 wee each stint we're not here in the day and 1 over night.