How ‘hard’ are you on your dog?

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BBP

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Asking following sessions with different trainers with very different approaches. How do you know the line between too ‘fluffy bunny’ and too tough?

I had what I felt was a very distressing session for both me and the dog and wonder if I am being too emotional about it. I guess I’m wanting to ask if the person was too tough or if I’m being a delicate little butterfly who is over reacting, only I don’t want to share the exact details publically, so not sure how to ask what you think is appropriate when dealing with a dog

For example (this is not same scenario as for my dog), if dog is barking manically and losing the plot at neighbour in next door garden and you want it to behave better around them, would you:
A) remove dog from garden
B) reward dog for periods of calm using treats/distract and reward
C) put half choke on dog, let it strangle itself whilst going nuts at neighbour and keep battling it out til exhausted
D) shout at it
E) hit dog
F) insert your own methods here
G) a combination of above

Also would it bother you if a trainer instantly was rude about the breed of dog you have, and said they had never worked with one that they liked, and that if you want to train it you mustn’t talk to it, stroke it or let it be around you unless you call it?

(To add, I have now found a brilliant local behaviourists and training centre where we will be starting to learn working trials/scent work/agility foundations to see what dog enjoys as work, which I’m really excited about rather than continue with the one I’m uncomfortable about. Puppy has been doing brilliantly recently.)
 
Whilst I would not advocate some of the scenarios described at all, to address a more general point, the training would depend on the type of dog.

My older dog is extremely tough to any sort of correction, however he is extremely forgiving and resilient. I'd have another ten like him, I'd just have instilled manners on him very young now that I know a bit more about his breeding lines, any issues I ever had with him were in the post.

The younger one is a spoiled devil and looks mortified if I raise my voice. He is a sensitive spud and there is no way I could have trained him in the same way. He loves people and just wants to be around them.

There are some great dog trainers with terrible people skills. Certain types of dogs I would not have around me but I would not say it out loud.
If you have a dog in 'boot camp' and are trying to go back to basics to solve a serious issue, I can understand some of that sentiment.
People DO speak to much to their dogs in training IMO, it just becomes white noise and any commands are lost in the burble.

Glad you have found people you can work with :)
 
BBP said:
Also would it bother you if a trainer instantly was rude about the breed of dog you have, and said they had never worked with one that they liked, and that if you want to train it you mustn’t talk to it, stroke it or let it be around you unless you call it?
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yes of course it would bother me, noone can train an animal that they've decided they don't like before they even meet it-dogs or horses imo :)

and I've had ex-police dog handler trainers and gun dog trainers that I considered way to hard and walked away from.

oh, and B.
 
G.
And depends on the dog. No way are my dogs allowed to go mad at the neighbours, but they are allowed to bark at strangers walking past. I would shout at them 'shut up' and if they carried on I would go and bring them into the house. Luckily they always stop on 'shut up', probably as I have a few together the young ones pick up from the olds. They don't bark at neighbours they know but there was a strange man in the next doors garden last night (with the neighbour) and the spaniel did have to be told be to be quiet.
I would not remain at a session where a trainer was rude about my breed of dog, what would be the point? Dogs pick up negativity immediately. I do agree that reward based attention has it's place. Totally agree about picking the class for your dog, mine would go to gundog trainers, horses for courses.
 
MotherOfChickens said:
and I've had ex-police dog handler trainers and gun dog trainers that I considered way to hard and walked away from.

oh, and B.
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I would add that I have only ever gone to a session with a trainer who I know enough about that I would take my dog to, so far that has been the breeders of our dogs. I went to a proper gundog class once and the exercises were way to difficult and the dogs all petrified and shut down, not for me, the dog should enjoy a training session as much as we do.
 
Mine barks at next doors dog (learnt behaviour as their previous dogs used to keep going until she reacted). I just call her in and taught her that by going and getting her while giving a command “indoors”.

There’s no way I’d use a trainer who openly didn’t like my dog, nor would I use one that used any sort of fear or pain punishment.
 
G.

I don't use any one method, I just act according to immediate instinct and what I've learnt works for different scenarios. My dog is a rescue and being aggressive or getting physical with him doesn't help - it makes him aggressive back. With him I use positive reinforcement - e.g. when he barks at certain dogs he hates going past, I'll call him over and give him a treat to distract him. He used to ignore me totally and go mental but we're at the point now where I just need to say 'Excuse me!' and it breaks the cycle immediately.

I'm not against giving dogs a sharp reminder though. When my boy first came to me he cocked his leg and weed on me a couple of times, for which he got a kick up the bum and a telling off!
 
Clodagh said:
I would add that I have only ever gone to a session with a trainer who I know enough about that I would take my dog to, so far that has been the breeders of our dogs. I went to a proper gundog class once and the exercises were way to difficult and the dogs all petrified and shut down, not for me, the dog should enjoy a training session as much as we do.
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well, I try to do that too now. the ex-police dog trainer I went to in desperation for my border collie and it was over 20 years ago. his idea of getting the dog to not pull on the lead was to let him run out and yank him off his feet-I wasn't expecting it and he got to do it once. Although he did say the dog needed a pincer collar-which is exactly what a fear aggressive collie needs..

as for gun dog trainers, I only know of ones around me that I wouldn't recommend because I've seen them in action but I'm sure good ones exist. I don't want or need a working dog, I want certain things set in stone (recall, leave, walk to heel to name a few) but the rest of the time I want them to be dogs, enjoy themselves and nice to be around. I'm not a saint and I am not only R+ with dogs (except with Fitz, who doesn't do pressure or correction but who will now do a small agility course and is an ace frisby dog!). Quarrie is a blockhead but he lives for praise so is quite easy to train.

Fitz is a collie (of sorts ;) ) and I can see how some might find smooths quite vocal dogs-its mostly done out of worry though and he's been easy to get out of it.
 
BBP said:
C) put half choke on dog, let it strangle itself whilst going nuts at neighbour and keep battling it out til exhausted
)
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Can anyone tell me what this is going to achieve? Even if the dog was eventually suffocated/ beaten to being quiet what will it have done towards teaching him to ignore the neoghbour?
 
Clodagh said:
G.
And depends on the dog. No way are my dogs allowed to go mad at the neighbours, but they are allowed to bark at strangers walking past. I would shout at them 'shut up' and if they carried on I would go and bring them into the house. Luckily they always stop on 'shut up', probably as I have a few together the young ones pick up from the olds. They don't bark at neighbours they know but there was a strange man in the next doors garden last night (with the neighbour) and the spaniel did have to be told be to be quiet.
I would not remain at a session where a trainer was rude about my breed of dog, what would be the point? Dogs pick up negativity immediately. I do agree that reward based attention has it's place. Totally agree about picking the class for your dog, mine would go to gundog trainers, horses for courses.
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I agree with this.

A combination of methods, depending on the situation and the individual dog. Our dogs will bark when in the yard sometimes, if I know what they have seen and know that it is harmless, I will call 'Quiet', if they persist I will bring them inside. If I don't know what they have seen, I will investigate and either let them continue to let the 'threat' know that they are there, or take them inside. They do know that they will be rewarded for leaving the gate and going into the house, under these circumstances.
Our current dogs are Rottweilers and we have certainly found that you have to be 'on top of' them all the time, while we could give a little with previous dogs (Labs, Border Collie, JRT, GSDx) we do have to be firm with the Rotts. If you allow a behaviour once, they will take that liberty for ever. They just need you to be clear though, not tough.
I do know someone who just talks at her dogs all the time and they take absolutely no notice of her commands, which are more like questions.
 
MotherOfChickens said:
well, I try to do that too now. the ex-police dog trainer I went to in desperation for my border collie and it was over 20 years ago. his idea of getting the dog to not pull on the lead was to let him run out and yank him off his feet-I wasn't expecting it and he got to do it once. Although he did say the dog needed a pincer collar-which is exactly what a fear aggressive collie needs..
.
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Bizarrely my brother thinks that is the best way to teach a dog to heel. I stopped going for walks with him as watching a half grown lab go hurling backwards through the air was actually quite distressing. Funnily enough, she still pulls like a train and mine all walk beautifully (a boast!). I do nudge with my knee if their hindquarters are next to me (a la Cesar Milan - sorry peoples!) and the spaniel has had a toe push sideways to break the head down/lurch/scrabble pull she can develop.
Mine work but mostly they are family pets and just dogs, so when we go for a walk they run around, eat rubbish, sniff nasty smells and play. If I put on the game bag though their whole demeanour changes.
As for gundog trainers who think carrying the dog around by it's ears is a good way to reinforce the stop whistle...
 
Not at all. Through 'shaping' training they are generally always looking to please and get 'rewarded' even if its just a 'yes'.
E.g I want them to sit on their beds. They move I pop them back on their beds (without force or negative punishment) - and repeat. The dog gets bored before I do. I also get in there before they desire to move with a reward and it quickly clicks that being on their bed is the best option.

Dog barking at neighbours- distract and reward when quiet. Remove from situation, physical punishment is only a sign that the trainer has lost control and is scared/frustrated and can't out think the dog
Sounds like you are entirely correct to change trainers!
 
I'd probably go with a combination of D and A.
My dog was barking at the neighbours over the garden fence yesterday, they are new neighbours so he doesnt know them yet, he got shouted at "thats enough" which is normally sufficient to shut him up in the house. but he continued to bark so was recalled indoors.


C & E are not training methods, C is downright cruel, E is you losing control of the situation.

I'm not that fond of B in that situation as I've never found it work well for getting them to shut up however for training recall it is an excellent method
 
C is exactly what trainer did to my dog. They set them up to get a reaction repeatedly (not barking at neighbours, but basically using one of the dogs strongest triggers which is reaction to the noise of electric tools) and then when dog predictably went over the top manic they held dog off a half check in one hand and tool in the other and said they would let the dog fight the collar all day if it didn’t learn to quit.

I’m so ashamed that I didn’t grab my dog and leave immediately, I was so cowed by this person and their reputation, apparently they are held in high regard (much like when people stand by and watch horses ridden too hard by famous riders). When I shamefully burst into tears about the treatment of my dog they said that another breed would have come to comfort me but mine didn’t care...despite the fact that they had tight hold of him on a half check. They did not have one single positive thing to say about my dog or about me and continually pointed out how I had failed so far. Bare in mind my dog is a 7 month old puppy.

(Following a previous comment- My mum was also told by an raf police dog handler to stop our old dog pulling by yanking it off its feet)
 
Not quite the same scenario but my next door neighbour's dogs are forever yapping at mine but I don't like mine reacting back so I recall them away from the fence and they get a reward for staying quiet and coming away. For the most part, they ignore all the yapping a cavorting next door but once in a while they do have a bit of a bark back but I don't particularly correct that as the constant noise must get on their nerves as much as it does mine, so I can't blame them!!

As for trainers and training; nothing is achieved by losing your patience. God knows, I've learned the hard way over the years. Of all the dogs I have learned from, it's the two deaf ones that spoke the most (if you know what I mean). Take away all verbal commands, which is just 'noise' anyway to dogs, and you're left with communication in its most basic form.

I've kind of always done things in my own way and in my own time but I'm not adverse to the idea of a trainer but I wouldn't tolerate someone who immediately was biased against my dog(s) because of breed. I also wouldn't tolerate abuse. That doesn't mean I'm all happy clappy with mine. Sometimes they walk all over me but they know their place and they stick to it.
 
I am so sorry BBP, learn from it and put it behind you, they aren't worth your time thinking about. It is hard when someone has a big reputation and while at times I have left both riding and dog training sessions, I have also gone along with stuff that I simply wouldn't do now (such as alpha rolling which my ex, a vet, thought a good way of getting a dog to 'submit'). We're all learning and every dog teaches us different things.
 
use clicker training. Get the dog to focus on you. Involve the neighbour. Reward when the dog is quiet even for a few seconds and build up from there. Worked for my rescue dog who was not happy round other dogs and now can go and greet them and is now happy to be round people she doesnt know and doesnt see them as a threat.

Its helping the dog to stay calm in a situation. Not necessarily taking the dog out of the situation but keeping it there to show there is no threat.

My rescue dog was very upset by things but putting her in uncomfortable situations has actually helped her so much. For example she used to hate other dogs near her, taking her to flyball and dog training has helped her see that other dogs can be quite nice.
 
I’d not be seeing any trainer again that I wasn’t comfortable with. In terms of my style, it depends on the dog. Even the two I have now are very different, if I raise my voice to Fizz she visibly reacts and only really reacts well to being moved away and treats where as Dobby couldn’t give two hoots about shouting or a physical response (only ever a nudge) but life to his is a game so I make everything a game, he has a motivational toy which I use to help shape behaviour and he is so much more engaged with me and wanting to please.
 
MotherOfChickens said:
I am so sorry BBP, learn from it and put it behind you, they aren't worth your time thinking about. It is hard when someone has a big reputation and while at times I have left both riding and dog training sessions, I have also gone along with stuff that I simply wouldn't do now (such as alpha rolling which my ex, a vet, thought a good way of getting a dog to 'submit'). We're all learning and every dog teaches us different things.
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This. Move on and forget it, your dog will have done. :-)
 
to quote susan garret - positive is NOT permissive

my mantra is always to set them up to succeed. I would be asking why, in the grand scheme of things the dog has to be near garden power tools. Don’t create the situation in the first place.
 
NeverEver said:
to quote susan garret - positive is NOT permissive

my mantra is always to set them up to succeed. I would be asking why, in the grand scheme of things the dog has to be near garden power tools. Don’t create the situation in the first place.
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This, literally the only thing my dog has ever barked at is the lawn mower. I just shut him in the house till it’s turned off.
 
IMO the dogs character is the important thing to focus on. my collie cross is very sensitive, just has to be told no(quietly) once and that is ingrained for life, a very easy dog to train , have never needed to be strong or assertive with her as she is very submissive...HOWEVER, my terrier cross is completely different and has challenged everything and has been much harder work. he wouldnt have stopped barking in your scenario and would have probably strangled himself while the collie wouldnt have needed any sort of restraint. i must admit i dont like the sound of this supposed dog trainer and you are right to have gone somewhere else. that treatment for a 7 month old puppy is much too harsh.. i know cesar milan is not popular on here but i have just watched him with a dog who was reactive to lots of things indoors,the hoover being the worst, he used the smell of food to get the dogs attention and get him to calm down as he says when they are in the excited state they wont listen to anything and you need to get them focussed on something else...
 
NeverEver said:
to quote susan garret - positive is NOT permissive

my mantra is always to set them up to succeed. I would be asking why, in the grand scheme of things the dog has to be near garden power tools. Don’t create the situation in the first place.
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Love this - usually if my dogs do wrong it is my fault for letting the situation occur, it is my responsibility as an owner to stop that happening

Having said that, my newest rescue will always bark at people/dogs walking down the path behind the back garden which drives me mad - she always gets told to get indoors, with a smack on her bum if she doesn’t do as she is told
 
'my newest rescue will always bark at people/dogs walking down the path behind the back garden which drives me mad - she always gets told to get indoors, with a smack on her bum if she doesn’t do as she is told'

An example of how next time the dog will be more anxious as it knows the owner gets stressed and will use an aversive when people walk down the path ergo dog thinks people at path definitely need to be worried about/protect against and bark at and the cycle continues.

In this situation simply take the dog by the collar/harness, use a bribe and bring dog inside, it soon learns that barking is not much fun and its much more exciting inside and people coming past aren't actually anything to worry about.
 
OP- It's easy to get stuck in a moment - you will know next time to simply remove your dog from the situation (anything from ' he looks unwell or I feel unwell and suddenly need to leave' if you're a wuss or ' stop, this doesn't suit me and my dog' ) and find a better training system which it sounds like you have
 
SusieT said:
'my newest rescue will always bark at people/dogs walking down the path behind the back garden which drives me mad - she always gets told to get indoors, with a smack on her bum if she doesn’t do as she is told'

An example of how next time the dog will be more anxious as it knows the owner gets stressed and will use an aversive when people walk down the path ergo dog thinks people at path definitely need to be worried about/protect against and bark at and the cycle continues.

In this situation simply take the dog by the collar/harness, use a bribe and bring dog inside, it soon learns that barking is not much fun and its much more exciting inside and people coming past aren't actually anything to worry about.
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Oh dear we are all the online experts aren’t we :) :) You unfortunately missed the essential bit - she gets told to shut up and come in, as people going past are normal and no big deal. It is only IF she ignores my words that she might get a reminder, which happens rarely. She is not worried about passers by, she is active, nosy and wants to play.....
 
A for short term and B for training. 'Alphas and being the boss' have been considered both out of date and unnecessary for a long time. It's the uneducated persons way of training animals.

Why would one use positive punishment or negative reinforcement when positive reinforcement is as effective. The animal also learns much quicker using positive reinforcement.
 
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The scenario the OP describes is crazy, I agree.

But different dogs have different levels of resilience and sensitivity and motivations for behaving the way they do.
If a dog's hunt drive is higher than it's food drive then food isn't going to work.

Apologies for posting this AGAIN lol but it explains things pretty well for me.
http://growingupguidepup.org/the-punishment-of-positive-only/
 
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