How ‘hard’ are you on your dog?

CorvusCorax said:
The scenario the OP describes is crazy, I agree.

But different dogs have different levels of resilience and sensitivity and motivations for behaving the way they do.
If a dog's hunt drive is higher than it's food drive then food isn't going to work.

Apologies for posting this AGAIN lol but it explains things pretty well for me.
http://growingupguidepup.org/the-punishment-of-positive-only/
Click to expand...

Thanks for posting. I'll have a read of it tomorrow.
 
CorvusCorax said:
Apologies for posting this AGAIN lol but it explains things pretty well for me.
http://growingupguidepup.org/the-punishment-of-positive-only/
Click to expand...

Going a teeny bit off topic but I really, really relate to this:

Eventually, many pet owners give up on strategies that are failing them, as R+ requires very specific skills to work, namely excellent timing, a dog that is toy/treat-motivated, and an environment devoid of any stimulation that is more rewarding (like squirrels) than the highest value treat you happen to have on you.
Click to expand...

I remember the crushing feeling of failure that I could never, ever be interesting enough to the dog flying and screaming on the end of the lead. There was no treat or toy in the world more interesting than a person with a dog four fields away in the distance. Squirrels were off the chart. It was a lot of pressure and potential for disappointment to heap on a newbie.

I get it now, and have achieved a lot since with 'cookie tossing', but what I think I'm getting at is that I wish I had known earlier that it's ok to shout at a dog to stop being a tit, if you know it will have a desirable effect, and if it is genuinely being a tit. :p
 
A & D. I’m not physical with my dogs. Zak was extremely stubborn as a youngster and just got popped back on his bed when he refused to do as told. We went through 4 trainers with him until we found a gun dog trainer who ‘got’ him cos one of hers is the same but not as extreme. He basically needs a job.

I think once you find what the dog needs, you’re sorted. I don’t see trainers as gurus, some are awful, some are great.
 
It seems to be the cool job du jour.
One minute someome has taught a dog to sit, the next it's all personalised hoodies and their van is covered in decals....

And if I had a quid for every person who claimed to be an ex police/army/RAF/search dog handler.....
 
CorvusCorax said:
It seems to be the cool job du jour.
One minute someome has taught a dog to sit, the next it's all personalised hoodies and their van is covered in decals....

And if I had a quid for every person who claimed to be an ex police/army/RAF/search dog handler.....
Click to expand...

I contacted a local gundog trainer to ask what he did when we had our first pup. He had a fantastic website. He had trained 2 spaniels and therefore was an expert. I didn't go training with him but I was arrogant then...now that I know he has trained not one but two spaniels I would go in a heartbeat. LOL.
 
cinnamontoast said:
A & D. I’m not physical with my dogs. Zak was extremely stubborn as a youngster and just got popped back on his bed when he refused to do as told. We went through 4 trainers with him until we found a gun dog trainer who ‘got’ him cos one of hers is the same but not as extreme. He basically needs a job.

I think once you find what the dog needs, you’re sorted. I don’t see trainers as gurus, some are awful, some are great.
Click to expand...

I don't think I have hit any of the current bunch, although we did have a terrier who used to climb on the table and pee on the butter, and when I caught him at it he did get a whack.
 
blackcob said:
Going a teeny bit off topic but I really, really relate to this:



I remember the crushing feeling of failure that I could never, ever be interesting enough to the dog flying and screaming on the end of the lead. There was no treat or toy in the world more interesting than a person with a dog four fields away in the distance. Squirrels were off the chart. It was a lot of pressure and potential for disappointment to heap on a newbie.

I get it now, and have achieved a lot since with 'cookie tossing', but what I think I'm getting at is that I wish I had known earlier that it's ok to shout at a dog to stop being a tit, if you know it will have a desirable effect, and if it is genuinely being a tit. :p
Click to expand...

I could wave a treat at the spaniel and it would get me nowhere if there was a rabbit to be seen. A bellow of 'NO' and a tug on the lead gets her attention. Mine won't take treats when training, labs I know but to them the retrieve is everything.
 
Luna will do anything for a treat if no distractions, but once she’s seen the cat up the road, the bird on the roof, or the leaf blowing past in the wind, that is all she will focus on. Am trying so hard to get her to walk better on the lead, but it seems a battle I may never win. She doesn’t get smacked, but I have shouted at her more than once.
 
TheresaW said:
Luna will do anything for a treat if no distractions, but once she’s seen the cat up the road, the bird on the roof, or the leaf blowing past in the wind, that is all she will focus on. Am trying so hard to get her to walk better on the lead, but it seems a battle I may never win. She doesn’t get smacked, but I have shouted at her more than once.
Click to expand...

you have to remember her genetics though-which are to pull. I forget how old she is but she must be coming up tot he age where she could be walked on a harness off a hip belt (canicross)? takes the strain off you-the lines also have grab handles if you need them closer for any reason.

I spent years trying to get me setter to walk nicely on a lead-then a setter trainer pointed out that they are bred to work remotely, they don't really 'do' heel very easily.

Personally I'd not even try with a husky-it would be too hard for me lol, I'd be belting up and marching on :)

I think food/treats has its place and I still use food rewards on occasion. I freely admit I ****ed up Quarrie's recall -it was great until it suddenly wasn't at about 8 months. We go it back to 100% using a program of conditioning with a whistle (using food and rewards such as playing), learning retrieves and endless impulse control training.
 
Thanks MoC. I know it’s all part of what/who she is, she’s 13 months now. I have recently bought a belt as she was yanking my arms, and with walking her with Aled, gives me a hand free to pick up any poop. The main reason I’d like her bit closer when we walk is her scavenging. I think we are going to seriously consider a muzzle to try and combat that.
 
TheresaW said:
Thanks MoC. I know it’s all part of what/who she is, she’s 13 months now. I have recently bought a belt as she was yanking my arms, and with walking her with Aled, gives me a hand free to pick up any poop. The main reason I’d like her bit closer when we walk is her scavenging. I think we are going to seriously consider a muzzle to try and combat that.
Click to expand...

it is odd that she's so hellbent on it-is it a husky thing? can you teach a husky a leave command lol?
 
I'm another one who's a fan of using what works for that particular dog, I happen to own malamutes and 2 out of the 3 (both the females) have been of the stubborn variety who will happily turn a deaf ear to you if it benefits them, although all of them need a pretty no nonsense stance to things they are still different, the first girl has had 1 smack at 14 weeks when she bit me for taking the cats food off her (she never acted aggressive after that and it was 1 snack and into time out) the other girl is quite dismissive of anything and just ends up in time out when she goes too far, the boy is a bit more sensitive and only needs a firm no and pushing away from you to tell him that you don't approve. I like to think I'm firm but fair with them, they all have decent recall, walk without pulling, don't mug people etc and are pretty easy going. No doubt some people think I am a bit hard as they aren't always getting cuddles and treats etc but they aren't that type of dog and I don't want the spoiled brat syndrome.
I like the idea of positive rewards and have been known to use them but find that they cause much bigger problems if used at the wrong time so in the OPs scenario I probably wouldn't use them as I couldn't be sure that the dog knew it was being rewarded for the few seconds of quiet, mine get told to shush and if they don't they get called back in doors, this has happened enough now that they know to shush on command.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for all the replies. It looks as though not many people think stressing a dog out on a half check whilst continually exposing it to a strong trigger is the best way to train.

I had booked and paid in advance for a block of sessions with this trainer. After the first session I informed them I would not be going ahead with the remaining sessions (we did not have the dates booked in diary, at this first session trainer told me they were unable to do weekends, despite knowing weekdays were difficult for us. They had even forgotten we were coming on this date). I asked kindly if they would refund for the remaining sessions.

I have just had a response saying they would not be refunding me due to the considerable time and effort they have put into reviewing the assessment form I filled in (they hadn’t read it before I got there as they only sent it to me 2 days before so read it during the session) and liaising with another behaviourist I had spoken to.

My view is that if the training was advertised as kind, gentle methods and enjoyable and when I asked if they used aversives and they said no, they misrepresented themselves and I would not have booked had I known it was aversive training. So I feel I’m entitled to my money back for the remaining unused sessions.

It’s not about the money, but it’s not helping improve my opinion of them and I am furious they would retain money for sessions that have not been booked (ie I’m not being taken out of a slot that they could have put someone else in). I’m afraid I have written a very frank response, including a statement that I feel they misrepresented themselves and that I wish I had removed my dog from their care more quickly.

I have no doubt they think I am a delicate little flower, and we definitely won’t be on each other’s Christmas card list.
 
Good for you for putting your dog first.
Interesting thread and lots of good advice. Agree with most saying a sort of 'it depends' answer - I'd be twice as hard on my Patterdale who does not respect anyone or anything and would likely survive a direct nuclear strike. Compared to my CollieX who is a worrier, cares far too much about everyone else than herself and will pause to apologise to a flower for stepping on it.
 
BBP, that trainer sounds like a twonk and your recent post about their response to your refund request just confirms it.
When I was freelance (horses), I once took a block booking for lessons. She didn't like me, I could tell she didn't like me (ironically for the reverse reason as your dog trainer - I use reinforcement techniques only as am trained behaviourist), I didn't need her money badly enough to mess up my own reputation. Years later we ran into each other at a clinic I was running. She enjoyed the clinic and we had a nice chat about different training techniques etc. It's always got to suit both parties and if you're not comfortable with this trainer then what is the point since you'll never handle your dog that way? A trainer should be helping you understand the dog / problem, and guiding your response to it.

fwiw my farm terrier is a reactive terriorist. Obedience comes only through 'sweet-talking'. It really depends on the dog. My GSD you could probably drag around by a choke chain all day and she'd not care but I doubt my little one would ever forget or forgive.
 
Mine is a collie. Trainer said he is a passive resistant dog and positive reinforcement isn’t appropriate. When trainer repeatedly ran the screwdriver or moved it around, the dog repeatedly went ballistic, regardless of the previous times he had strangled himself on the choke. Trainer said dog was basically stupid/slow to learn. I personally felt dog was so consistently over its stress threshold that no other outcome is likely til he shut down exhausted. Trainer recommended flooding him like this daily until he didn’t go ballistic. Instead we have brought drill out, not switched it on and are just moving it around the house quietly, rewarding him for being calm, til he doesn’t associate the sight of it with acting up. He now trots around ignoring it. At some point we will work on similar tactics with running it quietly. It doesn’t mean I won’t tell him no, I have learned that he needs to be told what is wrong as well as what is right.

Interesting I had what I thought was going to be a hippy dippy ‘energy therapy’ session for myself to help with my lyme based anxiety levels, thinking it wouldn’t hurt. No idea of the therapy value but she picked out the three exact spots of me that cause me pain (one you could guess but the others were unlikely). We did it up at the yard and as horse was there she also did a few mins with him and picked up ‘energy distortions’ around his broken splint bone, and over his SI and poll (all areas of him having issues). The reason for babbling about this here is that I asked if she could try with my dog as he had had a rough week and might find it relaxing. She said there was a huge distortion in energy over his ears, particularly his left ear. She can’t diagnose anything, just say where she feels unusual energy that indicates and issue. But my little dog is only really reactive around noise (fast cars, slow ones are fine, electric drills, shavers, steam iron). I suffer noise hypersensitivity as part of my Lyme and it physically hurts my brain on certain noises, so it makes me wonder if he gets similar painful sensations with certain noises. No idea how you would know, but a curious little session I thought.

Currently puppy is on holiday with my partner and had been out in the ocean on a boat (which he loved!) and playing with a tiny kitten, one on each end of a whippy little plant leaf. So he’s doing fine!
 
I haven't got loads of experience with collies but the few I have known tend to be prone to anxieties so I would have thought that any kind of negative reinforcements or flooding would be the worst way to go with them. I currently walk a collie who is extremely dog aggressive (and anything that moves too fast), his owners took him to a trainer once who wanted to use treats to distract / reward but the poor guy was so anxious as soon as he left the house he wouldn't take the treat even without the trigger of another dog there, the trainer gave up on him and the owners had accepted that is how he is and they just had to deal with it, however by changing where we walked so if there was another dog we could move away into space we have slowly built up his confidence and he will now be distracted with food/ games and today an off lead dog ran up growling and barking and chasing him down the street and although he growled at it he didn't lunge etc and walked quite calmly with me away from it (although it kept coming with its hapless owner yelling at it to come back!). Sometimes they just need a bit more patience....
 
IME though, BCs are very sensitive to noise and it has led to various neuroses in mine and friends' Bfs (I expect everyone will contradict me now). Saying that, I am pretty convinced that generally the dogs superior hearing to humans means that stuff like lawnmowers, vacuum cleaners, drills etc are possibly quite awful for them and that they can hear things around those noises that we do not. My two are fine with the vacuum cleaner but don't like the handheld one and I'm fine with that, I just do it when they are out. As an aside, we have just swapped over to electric, rechargeable lawnmower and trimmer and they are both fine with those although they hated the old petrol ones.
A behaviourist I went to see after seeing the police guy advised me to flood my dog with traffic noise-he said that otherwise the dog would just get phobic about a succession of noises rather than used to all of it at the same time. I didn't do it, I did a lot of desensitisation instead which was reasonably successful. Flooding isn't ethical, I've not even heard anyone suggest in regard to animal training for over a decade. well, apart from the NHers of course.
 
op - I suggest you let behaviourist know you will be informing local vets, pet shops and facebook about what went on in your session - most public will not like that - if he does not refund the money. I would also be considering reporting his 'training' to whatever organisation he is accredited with, or the local animal welfare - they may not do anything but it will make him sit up and take note. out of interest- does he have a website so we can avoid :)
 
CorvusCorax said:
https://www.agilitynet.co.uk/training/bordercollie_suekitchen_leewindeatt.html
Click to expand...

that is how I found our BC's. Our last bitch was so sensitive she would have gone into a decline with one cross word. Our GSD however is the exact opposite. Today my training method was C on the list in the first post. He went into the front of the landrover for the first time in weeks so we could be driven up the road to our walk area. A friend pulled up, dog went crazy barking (which he doesn't normally do) OH got out of the driving seat to talk to friend and dog went neurotic. Totally over the top. He wasn't going to listen to any sort of reason. He already had a check chain and lead on ready for his walk. I just sat there with the pressure on the chain and let him get on with fighting himself. After around 30 seconds he realised he was going nowhere and gave in. For him, a big strong dog with a mind of his own, this was the best solution. We drove around, repeating the exercise several times and he learnt to stay calm.
What works with one breed or even one dog within a breed doesn't always work for others. If I had done this with one of my earlier GSD bitches she would have been horrified.
 
Molasses said:
Good for you for putting your dog first.
Interesting thread and lots of good advice. Agree with most saying a sort of 'it depends' answer - I'd be twice as hard on my Patterdale who does not respect anyone or anything and would likely survive a direct nuclear strike. Compared to my CollieX who is a worrier, cares far too much about everyone else than herself and will pause to apologise to a flower for stepping on it.
Click to expand...

your couple sound like the same mix i have got., there is patterdale in my pup as well, i have heard they can be a little opinionated....my terrier cross is a lovely person but just a bit of a terror sometimes...
 
CorvusCorax said:
https://www.agilitynet.co.uk/training/bordercollie_suekitchen_leewindeatt.html
Click to expand...

THat is very good. Having only seen a video of flyball I have no idea how any collie could cope with it, all that screaming.
I wanted to get one, instead of the spaniel, for dogging in but all the ones my OH sees are poor neurotic things, spinning in circles or crawling up the pavement so he said no. A shame, my Mum has always had rescues or rehomes (quite uncchanging house I suppose) and they have been great and so trainable.
 
Lots of dog sports are high stress environments Clodagh, I don't know why more people don't see it.
In a European survey which measured cortisol production in dogs, agility dogs scored high (waiting in line) and one of the highest stress environments for dogs was hospitals (service and therapy dogs) which is understandable....slippy surfaces, bright lights, weird smells.

That's not to say that's a bad thing, dogs, like ourselves, will always have stress in their lives and they need to go through it and come out the other side.
Some breeds are better than that than others and in some scenarios, the dog's drive carries it through and a chew on a ball or toy is enough to settle it down again....like one of our stress balls!
 
That collie article is very good, I’ve read it a few times now. The only bit I disagree with now is that shepherds know best.
 
CorvusCorax said:
Lots of dog sports are high stress environments Clodagh, I don't know why more people don't see it.
!
Click to expand...

It is a huge no no doing agility or flyball with a gundog as they need to be so calm and self controlled when working, in what is not doubt a high stress environment - loud, over stimulated etc. Now lots of poeple will tell me they do both. :-)
I agree that life is stressful and you have to enable them to cope.
 
Im not at all hard on Stanley but I have focused on the four things that were important for me ie good recall, not jumping up anyone anywhere, good with other dogs and people and not pulling on the lead. I am pretty pleased with what we have achieved and he's a real pleasure to take out and about. For a terrier he has proved to be extremely trainable but I still do some training every day with him and always have treats in my pocket to reward him. He's not perfect and will still do the occasional "naughty" thing to get attention but it's easily dealt with. He does get lots of exercise and stimulation though and I think that really helps him to be the easy dog that he is, left to his own devices I think he could be a bit of a PITA as he's a busy lively chap.
 
BBP said:
Mine is a collie. Trainer said dog was basically stupid/slow to learn.
Click to expand...

Wow. Because of course everybody knows collies are basically stupid/slow to learn! (I suspect he was describing himself). Good on you for backing out of the sessions & shame on him for not being professional enough to refund you. I think people do get afraid of speaking out to "experts" - i always say if you are in any way uncomfortable with what's being done to your animal, stop it, no matter who the trainer is. I walked out the first lesson in a weeks long riding holiday once because i didn't like the way the (qualified) instructor was insisting i fiddle with my young horses mouth to get him into an outline - I told her so & we still had a lovely holiday hacking around some beautiful mountains.

Oh, & the closest answer for me is B, although depends on the dog.

As an aside ... i know there are Accredited bodies for Dog Trainers, but can anybody just call themselves a dog without qualifications?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top