How Are The Evaluaters At Futurity Or Gradings Evaluated?

[Maesfen]

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I have no axe to grind and have no wish to cause trouble as I have never entered or likely to enter a Futurity but I'm sure I'm not the only one who would like to know how and why certain evaluators are selected so a few questions for the relevant people please.

1. Who evaluated the first evaluators and how was it done?

2. What qualifications, whether on paper or experience, did the original evaluators have to make those decisions?

3. What qualifications, whether on paper or experience do those now qualified as evaluators have?

4. Who set the criteria they are looking for in the first place and how is that adjusted to take into consideration of the different types in the UK?

5. Why is there not a CV type list of all those approved to evaluator status that is available before people make their entries? It stands to reason that some people will not like your type of horse, that's human nature however good the horse is, so it would be helpful to know you'll not be in front of one of those people. I'm not talking about chasing judges at all but why waste money to be evaluated by people that do not like your type of horse; what advantage is that?

6. Why are the evaluators allowed full details of the horse in front of them on the day? Surely the evaluators should be experienced enough for the horse to be judged on its merits on the day and the breeding or connections details should not have any bearing on that assessment. To outsiders and otherwise, that system seems very unfair on unfamiliar breeding/breeders or owners. Whether it is or not is beside the point, it is the appearance of giving everyone the same fairest chance that matters.

That's me for now but I'm sure people who use the Futurity and other society gradings will have other questions too as it seems so hard to find these answers.

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From that Ciss, can you tell me why you wrote this little nugget?

"Sadly I cannot say that for any other group of judges or assessors which is probably why I posted such a strong response to MFH's critical post about graders which (whatever explanation has been given since) did not clearly differentiate between crictism of BEF evaluators and of (probably solely UK-trained) studbook graders."

I strongly object to that remark Ciss as there is not one word of criticism in my post, it is purely trying to find out just how and why they are trained and who the evaluators are, which you are taking great pains to throw a smokescreen over by your responses so that still, none of us are any the wiser. People who enter the Futurities and other gradings should know who are evaluating their horses and their credentials for doing so; that's only fair when the costs of doing so are so high and the consequences of the marks given could have a lasting effect on the viability of that horse. If you were in their shoes, you should be asking the same thing but because you are the other side of the fence please don't pretend it doesn't matter because you do not like to be questioned about your authority.

 

[magic104]

If you want changes or are not happy then find out how you can contribute. You may already have enough experience to become a panel member anyway, would save an awful lot of misunderstandings. I have to say your post was not clear because the BEF has been described in the same way as gradings. There has been a misunderstanding of what has been written, (happens so many times), can we just leave it now & move on, instead of getting personal

 

[Maesfen]

Thank you Magic.
I'm sorry if the questions weren't clear enough for you but, yes, it's time to move on as you can't get blood out of a stone.
As to becoming a panel member, if it had been 30 years ago and I had the finances available, then I would have loved to have trained for it; sadly, it's 30 years too late for me.

 

[magic104]

It is never too late, you just ask the 80+yr old lady that sky dived!!

 

[Maesfen]

Lol, She's a lot braver than me! Hot air balloons any day but a plane, no way!

 

[alleycat]

Couldn't the names and credentials of the evaluators and the participating vets be published in advance, just as a matter of course? Perhaps the actual line up for any given location couldn't be given in advance- but I cannot think of any equivalent event outside the horse world that I have attended that hasn't had the "team" members publicised; flashed about as an advertisment, even.

Possibly the Futurity has grown so phenomenally fast that it has outgrown its own publicity systems and the original informality of its arrangements?

Magic- how DO we help? This is part of the original question. How do evaluators become evaluators? Ciss has given us some clues, but I think most of us would not presume to think ourselves competent; but there must be key competencies required; particular experience needed; training that one could attend? What IS the CV of a potential evaluator?

 

[magic104]

Magic- how DO we help? This is part of the original question. How do evaluators become evaluators? Ciss has given us some clues, but I think most of us would not presume to think ourselves competent; but there must be key competencies required; particular experience needed; training that one could attend? What IS the CV of a potential evaluator?

Contacting Jan would be a start. They have people who write up for them like they do with dressage, I would have thought that would be one area. You would think that the person writing would be permitted to ask questions, therefore you are learning. If you go to any of the gradings that actually give an evaluation at the end see how that matches what you thought. I dont think there is a structure in place, but there needs to be. From what I know there is a blue print of what the ideal Show Jumper, Dressage & Eventer look like. For the BEF anyway they will be looking for horses that follow that blue print. Blood lines, as already mentioned knowing as much about the different blood lines, their strengths & weakness helps again when you see it in front of you. As Celia said if you know a certain breed/blood line matures later then you may look more closely at an animal that bucks that trend. It maybe that animal has been forced (as in racing), that in turn could have a shortening on its working life. But I am not an expert & not really the person to be asking.

 

[Anastasia]

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One further point I would like to make on I have been identifying, guiding, developing, introducing training systems for and constantly assessing many of these BEF evaluators for a much as 9 years (ie since the whole YHE system began). The top evaluators are also totally aware of current develoments and trends in breeding (in some cases almost before they make the official rule books or affect the grading reults abroad) and all of them constantly update the others on these developments so that the evaluations can reflect them. As a result of this I can say with my hand on my heart that there is not one that I would not be prepared to send to look at a colt and assess its potential as a graded stallion or top competition horse in any discipline for a client and pass on that opinion to the client as equal to my own. Sadly I cannot say that for any other group of judges or assessors which is probably why I posted such a strong response to MFH's critical post about graders which (whatever explanation has been given since) did not clearly differentiate between crictism of BEF evaluators and of (probably solely UK-trained) studbook graders.

Perhaps I am being niave here, but I feel that if the senior BEF evaluators (at least two of whom are almost alwys in attendance at every evaluation) are good enough for me to have that sort of blanket trust in them (with my reputation on the line and the goodwill of my clients resting on them) then I would hope that they would be good enough to meet this forum's seemingly Everest-high standards. But then again perhaps not ...

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe very much in the ethos of the Futurity. HOWEVER, I cannot see how hard it is to give a profile of each evaluator and their knowledge/experience. I asked this of Jan last year and obviously other people are asking the same.

I am not "downing" any evaluator but even for myself I would like to see a profile of those people who are evaluating my horses. As you have said above they have a wealth of knowledge, so how hard is it to give what your participants are asking for?

I have put my horses forward for inspection in front of KWPN judges for years. I know the knowledge of each one of those judges (and this information is available quite easily from he KWPN) and because of this knowledge I listen very attentively to what they say about my breeding, as this is what influences my choices for the future and sculptures (for want of a better word) my breeding programme.

I have also been very fortunate to be with KWPN judges at several stallions gradings and have gleaned much knowledge from them.

Those at the BEF should stop side steping the questions and see the benefits of doing this. If people are willing to become an evaluator then they should be willing to see how important it is for the entrants to see the "qualifications" (for want of a better word) of who is evaluating their horses.

Now many of the people who enter the Futurity have not gone through gradings before, so they are looking at the Futurity to let them know about their breeding choices and perhaps breeding programme. So I personally think it is only fair that every evaluator has a synopsis of their experience and knowledge THUS avoiding any kind of posts like this in the future, as nobody would then have any questions about them, and it would give the Futurity full transparency. Also would avoid posts like this, as people would know all the information before entering.

 

[Partoow]

The interesting thing is the evaluatore have come to the task via differing routes. Publishing a list of their names so that they can be Googled to death and possibly discredited because someone did not get the result they wanted or their face does'nt fit is a worry.
The evaluations have yet to start and already the evaluators are , even if you dont think so under attack.
There are some really amazing evaluators many who have seen the spots horses from many angles , there is always a team and the discussions open and frank amongst the team.
As for the breeding its intersting to see, nothing more. It certainly does not stop a horse or raise a horse up over another if its
1. an athlete
2. conformationally , particularly limbs and feet good.
Whenever a horse comes in that is known to one of the team the evaluator will step out and not discuss the horse so i think this fear of predudice has to be allayed.
Many of the top evaluators in germany are themselves breeders it is how many have gained their experience as well as being top riders currently or in the past.
i can understand why you may wish to have information on the evaluators but i can also understand how this information can also be used in a distructive way.
The evaluators are there or have been asked to take part as they have already been noted as having value/knowledge and they are then given the opportunity to develope their knowledge more for the benifit of those taking part in the scheme.

 

[Anastasia]

Partoow I am disappointed in what you say. The names of the evaluators are known to everyone who enter each evaluation (unless you are all doing it with paper bags over your heads or behind tinted glass

), so I think it is short-sighted to think that these people are not "googled" anyway even AFTER the event, if people are that way inclined.

People google me and my stud but I am not about to get paranoid about it all, in fact a lot of good things have come out of people doing that!

Who is attacking the evaluators?? Nobody from what I can see. What people are asking for is more transparency in who is doing the evaluations.

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Many of the top evaluators in germany are themselves breeders it is how many have gained their experience as well as being top riders currently or in the past.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes and the names of these people are available through the Breed Society websites, so that their breeders have more knowledge on what is happening.

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The evaluators are there or have been asked to take part as they have already been noted as having value/knowledge and they are then given the opportunity to develope their knowledge more for the benifit of those taking part in the scheme.

[/ QUOTE ]

Edited the post as forgot the above comment. There is nothing on the BEF website to say how the recruitment of evaluaters is done, perhaps a sentance or two would perhaps be beneficial?

What I believe can be destructive in any organisation is lack of transparency, one just has to see what is happening with the Government to give a prime example of this.

I am not trying to be awkward regarding what I am saying, and I dont think what people are asking for regarding the evaluators is that difficult to do really, as this information would be at the fingertips of those within the BEF.

 

[cruiseline]

I am all for the futurities, they are a great asset to the breeders in the UK, another tool to have at their disposal and one which can be used very wisely for your future breeding program.

But at the end of the day, it is always going to be some ones opinion and this is not going to change, unless we can get a computer to do the job for us.

I am a dressage rider and my whole competitive career is based on some one else's opinion. I understand this and accept this, the minute I step into that arena I have opened myself up for criticism, after all this is what my sport is about. There are times when I don't always agree with the comment made, but by paying my entry fee, tacking up my horse and riding down the centre line, I have knowingly put myself in that situation.

If people are not prepared to accept, not necessarily agree with, but definitely accept this situation, then it is best that you don't enter in the first place, as I can assure you, you will be getting an opinion whether you like it or not.

As far as the evaluators are concerned, in my experience last year, they were professional, knowledgeable and on the mark with all of my horses, they saw their faults and liked the positives about them.

 

[Anastasia]

I liked the evaluaters last year at the Scottish Futurity and I agreed with the negatives and positives on each of our horses and found them very approachable. I have no problems with the Futurity and was the one pushing the Scottish one forward.

All I and others ask for is a list of evaluater names and a profile of their knowledge etc.....simples!!

 

[cruiseline]

I know Anastasia, I just wanted to put my opinion forward about the whole concept.

I suppose for me, it really doesn't make a difference who is there to evaluate (within reason), as it is something I have gotten use to over the years of dressage competition, the judge will be who the judge is, but it does not stop me from performing regardless of my likes or dislikes towards them.

I know that you might say, but this is the beginning of a young horses career and what they write on the sheet makes a difference. Well, to me it does not have any influence on how that horse will perform under saddle (the career it was bred for), which after all IS the beginning of its competitive life. But it does have a HUGE influence on what I might pick as a potential partner for that youngsters dam in the years to come.

Again it is my opinion, and how I see the futurity as a tool in my box, after all the more tools I have the more chance I have of reaching my goal.

 

[Gingernags]

Well I'll add my two penneth as a tiny little breeder, breding only for myself, who has never done anything grading wise or ever done futurity before.

I'm quite daunted about entering. It is a lot of money to someone like me. Even BSPS champs classes are only £30-35, nomally I show in little shows and admittedly county level. So if I enter my yearling in 2 sections, £75 is a lot of money to me.

However, I'm probably going to go. Because I do think British Breeding needs to step up a gear - not in what we are producing - I think we are breeding some fantastic horses here - but in getting a consistent assesment system to help guide and publicise what we are breeding.

I do think that MFH is asking fair questions and calling for a bit more transparency. All too often in the showing world, especially at more local events - I see whose judging and have an OMG moment - I've had my mare judged in 2 classes (WHP) where the judge has never, ever even ridden a worker class! One I know rides cobs (and doesn't show) the other does the odd M&M or SHP. Those I question as to how on earth are they selected to judge!

Anyway, as I say as a very small breeder who has bred mine to keep, my reasons to go to the Futurity are to see how I've done in selecting a stallion and breeding my little un. I will be nice to have a more objective and detailed assessment with vet checks etc, and it would be great for the stallion owner if we did well, the stallion only covers a few mares but it would be great for the owner to say one of his foals got x at the BEF Futurity.

As such I WOULD like to see a small bio about the evaluators, and details of training would be great for anyone wanting to get involved. It is as a I say a decent chunk of cash to be parting with, and as I'm likely to try the endurance section at the venue near me and its a new one, I think it would be great to see what sort of person will be assessing and where their knowledge comes from - whether it be hands on riding experience, judging, breeding - whatever.

I'd love to see these evaluations take off and expand - maybe even more disciplines - but I think more information would be good, not detrimental.

 

[Maesfen]

[ QUOTE ]

I know that you might say, but this is the beginning of a young horses career and what they write on the sheet makes a difference. Well, to me it does not have any influence on how that horse will perform under saddle (the career it was bred for), which after all IS the beginning of its competitive life. But it does have a HUGE influence on what I might pick as a potential partner for that youngsters dam in the years to come.

Again it is my opinion, and how I see the futurity as a tool in my box, after all the more tools I have the more chance I have of reaching my goal.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why I started the original thread so that with a bit more transparency, entrants can see just who (and their credentials) will be in such a responsible driving seat. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that their decisions could make or break a horse's future.
I have never been against the Futurity at all, it is an excellent idea and deserves to flourish, which it is of course; if only they would be more forthcoming on who you are putting your trust in.

 

[Anastasia]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm quite daunted about entering. It is a lot of money to someone like me. Even BSPS champs classes are only £30-35, nomally I show in little shows and admittedly county level. So if I enter my yearling in 2 sections, £75 is a lot of money to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

People I know from Scotland went to the Elite Show last year (having qualified) and on speaking to one yesterday morning it cost her £1,000 to get to the show and back again (that was on a shared lorry with several others who also qualified).

 

[cruiseline]

[ QUOTE ]

People I know from Scotland went to the Elite Show last year (having qualified) and on speaking to one yesterday morning it cost her £1,000 to get to the show and back again (that was on a shared lorry with several others who also qualified).

[/ QUOTE ]

The Elite show was a whole different ball game, and I personally DO hope that the structure of it has changed from last year particularly where the 3 year old eventers and showjumpers are concerned!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Gingernags]

Its probably going to cost me in total a couple of hundred quid. It is a fair distance away, I'm going to have to get him used to travelling alone as no-one else will be coming with me horse wise, and if I take another horse he'll just scream for it. I need to be kitted out (can't believe I have to wear white, I'm going to look like the staypuff marshmallow man!!! or the goodyear blimp...!) though I have an inhand bridle and bridle numbers etc.

Its a good distance away but I'm excited about going on one hand, but worried I'm wasting my time and money on the other hand if he's not at all what the judges are looking for. He hasn't got well known breeding. I think he's perfect obviously, but I'm supremely biased! I'll cry if anyone is mean!!!

I've printed off all the paperwork and criteria to read over the weekend. Will decide then.

I may just go for the hell of it! If I can get OH up early enough to get there, though I've an offer from a fellow HHO-er to meet up and help out!

 

[magic104]

Just out of interest has the question been asked directly to Jan
1) Can a list of the panel of judges be made clear o the website
2) Can their qualifications be included
3) Can an overview on how to become a panel member be added to the website

If these questions were asked then what were the answers? Is this perhaps why this is being asked so publically (nothing wrong with that by the way), because the questions have not been answered? I hope this thread has not been started as a back door way of having a dig at the people concerned, I am sure it's not, but the horse world seems to be hung up on politics & really struggles to work together. There will always be people who disagree with a judgement, that is life, & if it has cost you, then it is understandable, but we need to move on. In this instance there are valid questions & if they have been asked directly then someone who can answer them needs to.

If the questions do get answered are people going to be happy? Or are we going to get a thread along the lines of well I know that person & they cant have done that! As I say there is nothing wrong with finding out who is looking at your horse, showing & dressage people do it all the time, some of them though take the attitude of cruiseline, you pay your money you take your chance.

 

[Maesfen]

[ QUOTE ]
I hope this thread has not been started as a back door way of having a dig at the people concerned, I am sure it's not, but the horse world seems to be hung up on politics & really struggles to work together. There will always be people who disagree with a judgement, that is life, & if it has cost you, then it is understandable, but we need to move on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Magic, get a grip. As I stated in my OP, this was not a dig at anyone but mere curiosity on my part as although it doesn't affect me in that I don't take part in them, many of my friends do and they would like to know the credentials of who is judging them. It should not be a secret in this day and age of transparency from big business to the Government all being accountable, surely there should be no great secret who is judging and wouldn't those same credentials help the BEF to publicise it better to encourage further entries?

[ QUOTE ]
As I say there is nothing wrong with finding out who is looking at your horse, showing & dressage people do it all the time, some of them though take the attitude of cruiseline, you pay your money you take your chance.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly and that's how it should be, nobody is denying that at all anywhere in this thread but people are not being given that chance to know who is judging them on what could be quite an important day for their stock and future plans for it.

 

[cruiseline]

[ QUOTE ]
As I say there is nothing wrong with finding out who is looking at your horse, showing & dressage people do it all the time, some of them though take the attitude of cruiseline, you pay your money you take your chance.

[/ QUOTE ]

That actually is not what I said at all and certainly don't have that kind of attitude.

If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen, is more the attitude I have with those who constantly complain about dressage, judges and opinions !!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[magic104]

Well I apologise for my error in reading "I am a dressage rider and my whole competitive career is based on some one else's opinion. I understand this and accept this" As being paid your money take your chances.

Perhaps someone could confirm if they have in fact asked these questions to the people who matter.

 

[Anastasia]

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Perhaps someone could confirm if they have in fact asked these questions to the people who matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you read my post further up I did say:
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I asked this of Jan last year and obviously other people are asking the same.

[/ QUOTE ]

As I never said I received an answer then that would also answer the question you ask.

 

[cruiseline]

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Well I apologise for my error in reading "I am a dressage rider and my whole competitive career is based on some one else's opinion. I understand this and accept this" As being paid your money take your chances.


[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps you should have read it as it actually was intended to be read.

But as you obviously didn't, I will spell it out, as I didn't realize it was so confusing therefore my apologies.

I will try again.

I put myself in the position of being judged, the judges opinion will be voiced on my performance, the judge did not ask me to be in front of them, I chose to be there.

So I therefore accept the judges opinion as I initiated it, however I do not necessary have to agree with all their comments

 

[magic104]

Perhaps you should have read it as it actually was intended to be read.

I admitted I mis-interpreted what was typed, & made public apology, can we move on now, thanks.

 

[rabatsa]

I am another small person who has entered my yearling which has local parents not well known in the big wide world. It will be interesting to get the evaluators feedback but I agree with those who would like to know the background the evaluators have come from. To me they are all just a name on a page as I too like my baby am just a local person and I do not know any "big" people to ask.

 

[Ciss]

[ QUOTE ]
I am another small person who has entered my yearling which has local parents not well known in the big wide world. It will be interesting to get the evaluators feedback but I agree with those who would like to know the background the evaluators have come from. To me they are all just a name on a page as I too like my baby am just a local person and I do not know any "big" people to ask.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then conatct Jan and ask her about who is doing what and why at your evaluation. She will get back to you and tell you, contrary to what some posts on this thread have implied <sigh>.

 

[nomis]

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She will get back to you and tell you, contrary to what some posts on this thread have implied <sigh>.

[/ QUOTE ]

Am I the only one who wonders what problem there is with publicising a list of judges on a website with details of them? It seems the BEF are not doing themselves any favours skirting round this issue.

You are putting on an event to hopefully be of benefit to British Breeding, and your breeders are asking for what seems very simple information. The voices of those people you are trying to encourage to attend your events are being ignored, and it seems your sarcasm does not help to put out the flames.

 

[trisblu]

I have read as many of the threads as I can and would like to say that I have been informed by BEF that they cannot guarantee that the assessors down for each venue will be the same on the day. This is a problem for me as I wouldn't go under some of the assessors listed. I also cannot understand how they can evaluate a yearling upwards against breeding type - knowing the sire - when they would have no idea what the mare looks like (despite her breeding). I watched one evaluation and marks changed when the breeding was known

 

[Ladyfresha1]

After attending myself last year and telling people how my boy got on I was being asked who the evaluators were and what experience they had. It has made me think now that the first premiums he got don't really mean as much as they did if I don't know the credentials of the people who awarded them.

If I knew that the evaluators were international riders/sucessful breeders or trainers themselves that makes their opinion worth much more than someone you don't know anything about. I do agree with 99% of what the evaluators said and it did confirm my own thoughts on my horse. But it leaves the question of how knowledgeable in their field these people are? I am sure that they are more than qualified to evaluate but How Do We Know If We Are Not Told??

Having a bit of information about them is surely not too much trouble. There have been a lot of posts on here saying why there should be. So WHY NOT?

I like the futurity but I don't think I will be paying £50 to take my youngsters under an evaluator I know nothing about.

We are not criticizing the futurity, just trying to help improve it!