How big is too big for maiden mare?

[Charmin]

As title.

14.2hh mare, the stallion would hopefully be an ISH type.

please ignore the weird stance of the side on picture, she wasn't quite playing ball!

In a perfect world I would love the foal to be 15.1hh+ However she's my mare of a lifetime and I don't want to risk putting her in foal to something too big and chancing any complications. An AI vet I've spoken to said that she believes the foal grows to the size the mare can cope with but is there really any merit in this?

Thank you for your thoughts

 

[Megibo]

I've since read that the 'foal only grows to size of mare' is utter... !!

I think its max 2 hands bigger, my 13.3 stocky sec D mare (maiden) is going to a 15.2 Arab next April and should be ok as he is finer build than her and his babies seem to be born quite small with slender shoulders.

 

[MiniMilton]

I put my 14.3 mare to a 16.2 stallion, hoping to get a 15.2. Out popped a scrawny foal that grew to 14.3! Foals are usually closer in size to the mare. Especially maiden ones. Just don't go for a big boned irish draught or sonething and she should be fine

 

[Charmin]

It's interesting isn't it. This mare is also homebred and is out of a 13.1hh to a 16.2hh ID/TB as we were advised by a repro vet it would be fine, and there were no complications or issues. It's just since then I've read a little more and this mare is far too precious to risk any more than you do normally when breeding!

 

[MiniMilton]

Oh and there was an experiment where TB embryo's were implanted into pony mares, and vice versa. Neither group had difficulty foaling. I think this is a link to it but I don't have time to double check. Must cook dinner!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/15056771/

 

[JanetGeorge]

I've since read that the 'foal only grows to size of mare' is utter... !!

Exactly!!! You can be lucky - some mares have small foals no matter what! I have a 16hh RID mare who is ALWAYS hugely fat before foaling - and out comes a teensy little thing with NO warning and her 'labour' is about equal to a fart! (They then grow like stink!) I had a 17hh RID maiden to a 16.3 RID - didn't let her get over-fat - the foal was still SO big it was dead before I could get the head clear! Her future foalings were also big - but thankfully she managed with careful control over her diet in the last trimester!

 

[ridefast]

When I worked on a cob stud they would put any old mare to the stallions. Think the smallest were couple of Dartmoor mares about 11h to 13.2 stallion, never any problems foaling and foals all grew to roughly 12.2. But there was a 15.2 cob mare put to a 15.2 tb stallion and her foal was 17h as a 2 year old.

 

[Charmin]

Is my mare's genetics going to have any bearing on things re foal height?

e.g her dad was 16.2hh, or is this immaterial?

So many interesting responses, thanks guys!

 

[PolarSkye]

there was a 15.2 cob mare put to a 15.2 tb stallion and her foal was 17h as a 2 year old.

Wow!

 

[mel_s]

My mare this year had a foal. Shes 14hh. The sire is 14.2hh. The foal - hes humungous! Hes way bigger than my 2 year old filly was when his age (she is expected to make 15.2hh and her bum is already higher than my geldings (hes 15hh) and shes 2). I'd say the foal is over 13hh now and he had to duck to drink from being born!

He is her 2nd foal. Her first (same cross, previous owner) isnt probably quite as big as mine but he was huge all the same. Hes as big, if not bigger than him mum now (yearling).

So you really cant tell!? Yet i know others who have used bigger stallions than the mare, yet the foal hasnt even made as big as the mare is. So you cant tell. neither can you assume that using a sire the same height as the mare, wouldnt produce a foal thats too big! But nature seems to deal with it all the same?

 

[twiggy2]

you can get throw backs in height to either side of the parentage,

my friends welsh D mare was the tallest ever to have come from her particular lines and she was 14.3hh she was put to the coloured stallion Amadeus who was not quite 15.1hh when I lost track of the filly at 3 yrs old she was 16.3 with lots of growing left to do, she was a big foal born and the mare was nearly lost despite it being her 4th foal, Amadeus was picked partly because he was not known to throw massive foals, so no-one knew where the height came from

 

[Charmin]

Thanks so much guys.

So, just to be super duper clear, would you have any reservations about putting this 14.2hh maiden mare to a stallion of a similar stamp to Weston Justice or Mill Law? (Perhaps even one of those two - anyone have any opinions on them?)

 

[twiggy2]

If I was breeding up in height by more than a hand I would want to drop down in build-hope that makes sense-I have had more to do with breeding other animals but always and have seen used use this rule (height/build) across the board from goats/cows to dogs/ferrets

 

[Charmin]

That makes a lot of sense, so going TB would be a safer bet? And would you take into account shoulder as well?

 

[Louise12]

What a lovely, lovely mare (just to be utterly useless in your discussion!) Good luck with whatever you decide. I only breed TBs, so have limited experience on the size difference, but even full brothers/sisters are different sized foals so it's just about minimizing the risk rather than it being an exact science.

 

[Lgd]

No guarantees for anything.
My 16hh mare crossed with a 16.2hh has produced a 15.2hh at maturity and the full brother is already 15.3hh at 3yo and still very immature so likely to make 16.1hh. I know where the little genes came from as Mum has a pony grandmother and Hyperion in her bloodlines. She was taller than both her parents.

My 15.2hh to a 16.1hh stallion produced a giant on her first foal. Got foal out OK but mare did tear quite badly. Last time I saw him he was standing 15hh at 16 months! No idea where the height has come from either.

 

[twiggy2]

That makes a lot of sense, so going TB would be a safer bet? And would you take into account shoulder as well?

thats what I would do, I would avoid a massive shoulder but not go for something tiny in the shoulder department

 

[kezz86]

I was always taught to put "blood on the bone" so yes tb type without a massive shoulder could work for you but as everyone's examples show you just have no guarantee with whatever you do.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do she's a lovely little mare.

 

[siffi the cat]

I have seen it go HORRIBLY wrong.... you must make sure your pony mare is a genuine pony not a hybrid ei. a pony of size but genetic has big horses up close....

IF your mare is a genuine pony then fine, I have seen a welch sec B about 12.1 get several foals including her first by a TB stallion who was 16.1 NO PROBLEM...

the problems comes when pony mare has big genes up close, sometimes the foal 'forget' its living in a pony womb if the genes says dam is really more horse and sire is huge.... trust me its NOT fun getting them out A woman I know did breed a 14.1 hybrid to her 16.2 colt and I have never seen anything like it... lost the foal as it got stuck again and again in the end the mares contractions crushed the foals ribcage while it was stuck mare owner was in panic, and had I not been there with years of experience to help the mare she would have lost both!

 

[Charmin]

Ur - sire of mare is 16.2hh.

Gosh that's scared me a bit

 

[siffi the cat]

if sire of your mare is 16.2 I personally wouldn't do it, had you asked me 2 years ago, before I saved that mare, I would as the others have insisted the foal NEVER gets bigger then the mares uterus allows, but the uterus is not the problem as its very flexible, the problem is the mares pelvic structure.... the foal that died that night got stuck by the head, the shoulders and again by the hip, that foal when measured was about 13.1 ei HUGE.... I have talked to my vet after that night and he has had to cheesewire a few too big foals out to save the mares.

 

[Charmin]

But putting a sire with less bone to my mare would surely reduce the size of the bone and lessen risk?

 

[siffi the cat]

depends what is in the genes... some stayer type TB would probably, some Arabs would too.

I personally wouldn't risk it, but that's just me.... one cheese wire foal was Arab on Arab.... most the time things go fine, but every now and again it doesn't, and if your not willing to take that risk the best thing is not to cover the mare....

 

[Lgd]

My 15.2hh with the known larger parents (16hh dam, 16.2hh) will be going to a 146cm pony stallion (whose sire is even smaller). I would have loved something from her for myself but will not risk it. Have told her she just has to breed me some international ponies, lol.

Will be finding a nice wife for her baby brother instead to continue the family line for myself.