How can I stop her leaning?

tonitot

tonitot

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My 5yr old TB has two ways of going, she's either goes at warp speed with her ears up my nose or I can get her head down but she leans on my and runs through the bit. Back was done 2 weeks ago, teeth done last week, ride her in a racing saddle with plenty of padding to minimise pressure points until I can get one fitted. She's ridden in an eggbutt snaffle with a lozenge and I am wondering if a change of bit would help, though im not sure which one. I've tried transitions, if anything they seem to wind her up! If I let her go round with her head up I have little speed control and she doesnt bend at all.

Any advice?
 
Stick with the transitions, and take things really slowly and most important be consistant. it sounds like she is unbalanced, falling though the front and is using your hands for balance. The "wind up" as you describe it sounds very similar to my girl when she was a youngster, in that I would ask, she would panic, and then rush off into some sort of reaction as she would worry that I was going to ask something complicated. She still does it occasionally now and can flit between hollow head high to falling though and leaning, but by taking a step back and rethinking how I ask (or just taking a 2 minute stretch break) usually solves things
 
Teach her to soften her jaw and relax it, on the ground to begin with. Face forwards, hands on the reins just near the bit, squeeze and release alternately until the horse drops its head slightly and relaxes the lower jaw, instantly release and praise. Do this several times more. Then squeeze and release the left rein ask her to turn her head towards you, get the yield, and release. Same to the right. Build up to holding a few secs before releasing. Then go to inhand position and ask for the same but in walk.

Then do the same on board, then flexions before moving off. If you havnt got steering you dont really have any business going forwards!!!
 
Thanks tigertail that's really helpful :) I will give that a try. When you say to face forward, do you mean so im standing in front of her looking at her or at her side?
 
TigerTail said:
Teach her to soften her jaw and relax it, on the ground to begin with. Face forwards, hands on the reins just near the bit, squeeze and release alternately until the horse drops its head slightly and relaxes the lower jaw, instantly release and praise. Do this several times more. Then squeeze and release the left rein ask her to turn her head towards you, get the yield, and release. Same to the right. Build up to holding a few secs before releasing. Then go to inhand position and ask for the same but in walk.

Then do the same on board, then flexions before moving off. If you havnt got steering you dont really have any business going forwards!!!
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This is interesting. So, you are teaching the horse to relax it's jaw and drop it's head when you squeeze alternatively on the reins?

Surely if you do this on board you will be giving the false impression of an outline as the horse may not be tracking up properly and using it's back?
 
I understand what tiger tail is saying. You need to get the horse off your hand and teach it to carry itself. Yes, it should be going forward and over its back but also, you don't want it balancing itself on your hands. It has to learn to carry itself at sometime and occasionally this means a false outline. So long as the rider recognises this they can then ride the horse forward and repeat the presure release. Personally, I don't do the alternate squeezing. I respond to what the horse is doing. Usually, a horse that is taking a hold will be leaning on one rein more than the other, and that is the rein that needs the correction. I do plenty of half halts and transitions. Half halts can be with two reins or just one rein, so long as your other hand is supporting the opposite rein. Take a half halt but drop the horse in the split second where it will try to take hold again. Then take up the softer contact. All this happens in a split second and is not very visible. The rider is not 'fiddling'. It takes a lot of practice to get right, and it should become instinctive and automatic.
 
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CobsGalore said:
This is interesting. So, you are teaching the horse to relax it's jaw and drop it's head when you squeeze alternatively on the reins?

Surely if you do this on board you will be giving the false impression of an outline as the horse may not be tracking up properly and using it's back?
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I'm sure TigerTail will be along with a better explaination, but I think it's more about teaching the horse how to respond to our requests - just the same as teaching them to move away from pressure when working on the ground. If the horse isn't taught initially how to react to the rein aids then you're going to get confusion and resistance. It's not about bringing them into a forced outline but knowing that you can ask for flexion either way and also being able to ask them to relax and soften through the neck and jaw.
 
celia said:
I'm sure TigerTail will be along with a better explaination, but I think it's more about teaching the horse how to respond to our requests - just the same as teaching them to move away from pressure when working on the ground. If the horse isn't taught initially how to react to the rein aids then you're going to get confusion and resistance. It's not about bringing them into a forced outline but knowing that you can ask for flexion either way and also being able to ask them to relax and soften through the neck and jaw.
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So the best way to ask them to soften at the neck and jaw is to squeeze alternatively (from the ground first and then ridden)?
 
CobsGalore said:
So the best way to ask them to soften at the neck and jaw is to squeeze alternatively (from the ground first and then ridden)?
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I found the phrasing of TigerTails reply a little confusing so I'm not quite sure how she would do this, but personally, no - I would apply gentle pressure to both reins until the horse gives/softens slightly then would immediately release. (Asking the same thing but from just the left rein and then just the right is going to teach them to flex the neck either way when asked.) Just like on the ground teaching a youngster to tie - you need them to understand that the correct response to pressure on the poll (if they pull back) is to drop their head to release the pressure. When riding I don't want to use this response to pull the head in but I do want to be able to ask the horse to drop their head and relax - therefore making it easier for them to eventually work properly over their back. I certainly don't want to pull or hold the head down but I would find it impossible to get a horse that is used to charging around with it's head in the air to work properly without some sort of rein aid!
 
I did mean squeezing alternately, doing both at the same time gives the horse something to resist and brace against, spoiling the point of the exercise which is to relax the lower jaw.

If that is relaxed the horse can't brace through the poll, therefore it's head will be in an acceptae carriage. Once on board you ask for that relaxation then follow it up gently with your legs. The first few times the horse will stick its head up and hollow. Bring back to halt and repeat the alternate squeezing until he can step off without hollowing. If he isn't bringing his head up he isn't hollowing, if he's using his back then it isn't a false outline. Don't get worried about legs tracking up as this will follow, within the horses capabilities as he builds up the muscle to carry you with his jaw relaxed, his head neutral and his back gently rounded. They all follow each other and only truly come with a horse able to relax is jaw :)

*best I can do on a phone!*
 
TigerTail said:
I did mean squeezing alternately, doing both at the same time gives the horse something to resist and brace against, spoiling the point of the exercise which is to relax the lower jaw.

If that is relaxed the horse can't brace through the poll, therefore it's head will be in an acceptae carriage. Once on board you ask for that relaxation then follow it up gently with your legs. The first few times the horse will stick its head up and hollow. Bring back to halt and repeat the alternate squeezing until he can step off without hollowing. If he isn't bringing his head up he isn't hollowing, if he's using his back then it isn't a false outline. Don't get worried about legs tracking up as this will follow, within the horses capabilities as he builds up the muscle to carry you with his jaw relaxed, his head neutral and his back gently rounded. They all follow each other and only truly come with a horse able to relax is jaw :)

*best I can do on a phone!*
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I completely agree. I hear lots of people saying to get them forwards and over their backs and hold the contact, riding them into it. And eventually they will come into an outline. I hate this method as the horse ends up heavy in the hands and only submits into the outline when it is knackered! Usually about 40 minutes into the session. I prefer to get them off my hand by softening their jaw and at the same time ride them forward, but not give them anything to lean into. It is the quickest way of teaching a horse to go in self carriage. I agree also about the over emphasis put on tracking up. Once the horse gets stronger and can hold itself in self carriage without reliance on the rider's hands then you start to get impulsion and therefore tracking up.
 
has she trained or raced?

my TB was like this untill i put him in a flash/grackle. he was trying to take the bit down between his knees or it was head in the air... basically he was trying to get tounge over the bit by opening his mouth and setting his jaw assoon as i stopped with the flash on a hack he stopped dragging me every where and we now canter happliy in groups and alone :)
 
CobsGalore said:
This is what my horse currently does. Am now going to teach him to soften by squeezing reins, starting from the ground up, and see what happens!
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The problem is, that horses like this have had their mouths numbed and hardened due to the constant pressure of the bit. If you don't succeed at first, then you may need to give his mouth a few months rest to regain its softness, and ride him in a hackamore. You can work the same way bitless as with a bit. Don't allow them to lean and get them off your hands. Good luck.
 
V true Wagtail.

Can I recommend heather moffetts book , v clear explanation with pics of what I've been saying, and Oliver hilbergers inhand book too.

Using a flash or grackle means the jaw is forced shut so while it may prevent the tongue over bit it's will not allow try relaxation of the jaw.
 
true my horse sisnt relaxed in the jaw out hacking this will take a hell of a lot of time and patiants :) but in the school hes as soft as anything :)

i achieved this with a lot of transitions and to stop i just used woah and a slight tug on the reins barley notaciable.. i kept this up untill he now doesnt it off woah... now no more leading :)

i cant help with the running off though except if she has raced maybe sit still hands low (on the withers) and talk to her keep a steady contact no pulling and give slightly :)

:)
 
TigerTail - thanks for clarifying. I apologise if I confused matters by jumping in like that. I don't have anywhere near the experience of a lot of people on here (you and wagtail for example!) so perhaps should have stayed quiet but it's taken me years to develop a system that works well for me and my horses (although it's still a work in progress!) and I like to think sharing things that work for me may be of some use to other people. I've found that as long as they understand exactly what you are asking most horses are fairly happy to comply. I'm sure the 'correct' route would be the one that led to understanding more quickly and perhaps provided a better foundation for further learning but I don't think an alternate method is any less valid or useful, providing that horse and rider both understand what is being asked/expected. I think most of us are working towards similar goals and it's always interesting to read about varying ways of getting there. :)
 
Agree that relaxing the jaw is the key - the way I think of it is that if the horse is tense through the neck/jaw then the energy created by the hindlegs can't come through - so I spend most of the time teaching the horse to release the neck & jaw, and the rest getting the horse to go really willingly forward & lift his back. Put together = on the bit.

How you release the jaw is the trickiest bit. I tend to lift the bit into the corners of the mouth and give a little upward vibration, usually it is easier to get in a bend (quite a big bend). The best way to get the feel is to stand in front of the horse with the finger and thumb of each hand around the bit ring. Imagine you are in the tack room holding the bit and moving it around in space - you want to be able to do this with the bit in the horses mouth and have him agree to fit himself around the bit wherever you put it, while he holds up his own head and neck so that you can put him in place and then have your fingers not touching the bit rings, but have him stay there. Your fingers need to be not touching the bit rings 95% of the time - just use persuasive upward vibrations to move his head, then he is responsible for holding it there.

Another good trick for releasing the jaw is to move the quarters over, often this releases the jaw on its own.

Finally, when you are doing this in motion, make sure that as soon as you get a jaw release you ask the horse to surge forward and stretch into the bit, following his mouth with your hands - this helps to avoid a "rubber neck" and gives you a nice length of neck which stretches the topline and makes a true outline possible.

In general for leaning, I'd do a quick upward shake/vibration of one or both hands, in a "get off my hands and hold your head up" kind of way. Worth checking the pace too, may be either not forward enough, or too forward for the horse to balance - if in doubt start slow & in balance and add energy gradually.
 
CobsGalore said:
This is what my horse currently does. Am now going to teach him to soften by squeezing reins, starting from the ground up, and see what happens!
Click to expand...

It sounds like you and I have the same cob! Not strictly the way you want to do it but when I started this kind of work with my girl she stubbornly refused to soften and would just walk backwards, we ended up over a mounting block and squashed up tightly (with her still trying to go backwards) into a corner of the school. This was extreme but with consitent messages she has got better, is quicker to soften and works really nicely sometimes. The key with my fatty cob is her behind - it makes sense, if she isn't right behind then in front is just a battle. When she is moving correctly behind she comes into the bridle almost of her own accord and softens much more easily and tends to stay in the contact.
 
The horse is rushing either through excitement or lack of balance. Transitions will make a horse sharper, so always ensure the horse is calm before asking for an upward transition. The horse will gradually learn that unless it stays calm, it will not be allowed to go up a gear. Initially this may mean you're doing less transitions rather than more. This is because you need to establish obedience before you can work on anything else.

For the lack of balance I'd go about this from the opposite end to everyone else and leave the head alone. You're trying to run before you can walk. I'd take the lightest of contacts in a bit the horse is happy with, preferably something with cheeks or D rings to help with steering, (or a straight bar flexible rubber snaffle if the mouth is very sensitive). Assuming the horse is a youngster, I'd use only a cavesson noseband. I see opening the mouth as a sign the rider has got something wrong or the horse isn't happy with the bit. With an older horse who has an established evasion of opening the mouth at any rein contact, I'd use a drop noseband.

Before riding, teach the horse, on the lunge or in hand (with no side reins or other gadgets) to go into walk and trot, and return to walk or halt, from your voice. Teach rein back and turn on the fore hand from the ground. Then when the horse has understood all this I'd ride (which may mean you don't ride for a few weeks.)

When riding I'd take a very light contact, allowing the horse to place its head where ever it needs with no restriction, which may mean I'm regularly letting out or shortening the reins in order to maintain a light contact. I'd focus on suppleness, getting the horse bent around my inside leg at walk. Transitions at this stage would be walk and halt mainly, with a few transitions into a very short period of trot and return to walk. None of the transitions should be a problem as the horse has been trained to respond to your voice. You can gradually change the voice aids to seat and leg aids with minimal rein aids, to achieve downward transitions. The suppleness, transitions, turn on the forehand and rein back, will all help build the correct muscles and obedience to allow the horse to get off your hand (which with your light contact you're not allowing horse to lean on in the first place) and carry itself.

What this method isn't, is quick. Assuming you ride 6 days a week, you may spend a month doing nothing but walking with a few strides of trot. Once you can get the horse walking a 15 metre circle and riding proper corners in a 20x40 arena (ie. two corners and a straight line on the short sides of arena, not a half 20m circle tacked onto the long sides), then you can start trotting more.

With the increase in transitions and suppleness, you'll find the horse starts to take more weight on its hocks and the head carriage alters. This means you'll have to shorten your reins on occasion to maintain your light contact, because the horse has gathered itself up a little more (or let the reins out and start again when the horse has lost its balance and is leaning).

As the horses balance improves you can do the rein squeeze thing already described, to get the balance a little better by softening the jaw a little more. At no point will you need to create a false outline because you won't try to alter the head carriage until the rest of the body is ready for it. Because you've not created a false outline you'll not at any point lose the forward movement or the horses ability to track up.
 
Sugar_and_Spice said:
The horse is rushing either through excitement or lack of balance. Transitions will make a horse sharper, so always ensure the horse is calm before asking for an upward transition. The horse will gradually learn that unless it stays calm, it will not be allowed to go up a gear. Initially this may mean you're doing less transitions rather than more. This is because you need to establish obedience before you can work on anything else.

For the lack of balance I'd go about this from the opposite end to everyone else and leave the head alone. You're trying to run before you can walk. I'd take the lightest of contacts in a bit the horse is happy with, preferably something with cheeks or D rings to help with steering, (or a straight bar flexible rubber snaffle if the mouth is very sensitive). Assuming the horse is a youngster, I'd use only a cavesson noseband. I see opening the mouth as a sign the rider has got something wrong or the horse isn't happy with the bit. With an older horse who has an established evasion of opening the mouth at any rein contact, I'd use a drop noseband.

Before riding, teach the horse, on the lunge or in hand (with no side reins or other gadgets) to go into walk and trot, and return to walk or halt, from your voice. Teach rein back and turn on the fore hand from the ground. Then when the horse has understood all this I'd ride (which may mean you don't ride for a few weeks.)

When riding I'd take a very light contact, allowing the horse to place its head where ever it needs with no restriction, which may mean I'm regularly letting out or shortening the reins in order to maintain a light contact. I'd focus on suppleness, getting the horse bent around my inside leg at walk. Transitions at this stage would be walk and halt mainly, with a few transitions into a very short period of trot and return to walk. None of the transitions should be a problem as the horse has been trained to respond to your voice. You can gradually change the voice aids to seat and leg aids with minimal rein aids, to achieve downward transitions. The suppleness, transitions, turn on the forehand and rein back, will all help build the correct muscles and obedience to allow the horse to get off your hand (which with your light contact you're not allowing horse to lean on in the first place) and carry itself.

What this method isn't, is quick. Assuming you ride 6 days a week, you may spend a month doing nothing but walking with a few strides of trot. Once you can get the horse walking a 15 metre circle and riding proper corners in a 20x40 arena (ie. two corners and a straight line on the short sides of arena, not a half 20m circle tacked onto the long sides), then you can start trotting more.

With the increase in transitions and suppleness, you'll find the horse starts to take more weight on its hocks and the head carriage alters. This means you'll have to shorten your reins on occasion to maintain your light contact, because the horse has gathered itself up a little more (or let the reins out and start again when the horse has lost its balance and is leaning).

As the horses balance improves you can do the rein squeeze thing already described, to get the balance a little better by softening the jaw a little more. At no point will you need to create a false outline because you won't try to alter the head carriage until the rest of the body is ready for it. Because you've not created a false outline you'll not at any point lose the forward movement or the horses ability to track up.
Click to expand...

^^ This is the sort of way I like to ride my horses too. :) Working on rhythm, balance and impulsion and leaving the front end alone until the horse is ready to carry himself. With a horse that has been ridden like this from the start you often rarely need any contact at all. However, when the horse is charging around with it's head in the air it can be difficult to work on balance, transitions, etc, which is when, IMO, teaching the horse to soften and not resist the contact can be useful. Even when the aim is a very light contact the horse still needs to accept the bit. Personally, as a very much 'average' rider, I can find it very daunting trying to do exactly the right thing, all the time. Sometimes we need to adapt a little to make things easier for us and the horse before we can reach that ideal.
 
Hi guys, thanks for all the ideas.
To the poster who said to ride her in a loose ring (sorry, I'm on my phone and it's a pain keep scrolling up and down :o ) she was in a loose ring snaffle but it kept pinching her and when I put rubber rings on the bit they rubbed her face which is why she's in an eggbutt.
She was in training but she never ran, its a bit tricky because I ride racehorses as my job and its easy for me to go into work mode and let her work as a racehorse would, though I try very hard not too!
Ive tried setting my hands and not giving in but as someone said above, she only gives in when she's tired and even then she still leans on me and is very tense through her neck.
She already responds to my voice on the lunge and does back up and turn on the forehand.
If I put a flash or grackle on her she gets upset as she doesnt like having her mouth strapped shut and it makes her even more tense.
 
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