How different is the horse world in the UK than the USA?

[splashgirl45]

This can occur anywhere in the world. There are good and bad horse keepers anywhere.

yes i know but this really shocked me more than the gypsy cobs who have been left to starve here, i know there are lots of problems all over the world but i was surprised at the state of them in a first world country... it was the fact they were still riding the poor things which i found so upsetting..

 

[gunnergundog]

My young horse won Withcote 2 day back in the day; he was never going to be 4 (now 5) star and I was advised not to waste my time and sell. He was good looking and very rhythmic - albeit lacking in scope and some would say heart - but he sold for 2.5 - 3 times the price he would have commanded here. Horses for courses.

 

[SBJT]

It depends on how much you like your Quarter Horse. They are available in the UK, rather more expensive that the average horse. There are Western Equestrian societies and western horse shows, tends to be in small pockets, so its nice if there is one near you, or it might mean travelling a long way.

But on the other hand finding a nice horse, straightforward with good riding and ground manners with no veterinary issues can be harder than it should be. In some ways it can be easier to find a good competition horse, as the producers have a bigger financial interest in its schooling.

I’m not actually married to a full QH and I’d prefer a mix with a draft X ideally. That’s what my current boy is and he’s fab so I’d want something very similar. Not so interested in competition but I’d want a sane horse to do English dressage, jumping and western on. And maybe teach obstacles and mounted archery. So a good brain would be the most important.

 

[Caol Ila]

English dressage? As opposed to what?

 

[Orangehorse]

English dressage? As opposed to what?

A Morgan obviously!

 

[Orangehorse]

I’m not actually married to a full QH and I’d prefer a mix with a draft X ideally. That’s what my current boy is and he’s fab so I’d want something very similar. Not so interested in competition but I’d want a sane horse to do English dressage, jumping and western on. And maybe teach obstacles and mounted archery. So a good brain would be the most important.

A Morgan, obviously!

 

[SBJT]

English dressage? As opposed to what?

Western dressage

 

[GSD Woman]

I'm in Virginia and it seems pretty rare for horses to live out 24/7. One place I rode had ponies out in a field that was mostly mud. A local veterinarian turned them in to animal control and straight stalls were built for the ponies. The owner/trainer at the stable was from the UK and came up through the British Pony Club.
Also, showing at certain levels certain levels is extremely expensive. A few years back a friend was telling me that it cost her $150 a class at a hunter/jumper show. She did win back more than she spent though. At the top levels it seems that more people are "married" to their trainers.
As for the costs of horses another friend could find me a nice Quarter type horse for 3,000-5,000 US$.

 

[Mule]

I think the American show jumpers are much more stylish than European ones. They always have the hip, heel alignment even over huge jumps. They also ride in a nice light seat. It's a much nicer picture.

 

[Caol Ila]

yes i know but this really shocked me more than the gypsy cobs who have been left to starve here, i know there are lots of problems all over the world but i was surprised at the state of them in a first world country... it was the fact they were still riding the poor things which i found so upsetting..

First world country? Is it really?

 

[Baroque]

As others have said, the USA is a vast country so it's really only possible to generalise madly but I found the differences quite marked in some respects.

The Western/English divide is strong, with western being the most common, especially as one comes away from the east coast. (I left the country with a deep respect for the quarter horse. Such a versatile little horse and usually with lovely, biddable temperaments). There seems to be little crossover and some of the competition between western and English factions can be a bit 'tribal' IME.

It's worth bearing in mind that generally there is more disposable income in the States. As a result there seems to be much more money sloshing around in horses. I didn't know anyone who had a horse that didn't have their own transport for example. And prices paid for fairly ordinary horses could be eye-watering.

It was quite a bit easier to keep horses at home over there. Houses and land are often significantly cheaper (we sold a 3 bed, 2 bath, 5 acre, 4 box 'American barn' property for £100k, less than a decade ago and it was not in the boonies). Equine vets were more expensive but the local farm vet, who could come in and do your (many, many) vaccinations and annual Coggins test, were cheaper than here. Repro work was much more expensive. Wormer was less than a 1/4 the price it is here.

In all my time there, in 6 different states, I saw only 4 people riding along a road! Even when the roads are wide and open, no one rode there. There's no network of bridleways, so unless your place is near a state park or trail the only way to hack out is to load up and drive somewhere. (Most state parks are really well equipped for riders trailering in, with trailer parks, hitching rails, picnic sites, toilets etc). Perhaps as a result of this I met a great many people who had ridden for years who had never ridden outside of a manege. I found no tradition of riding across country there, outside the hunting areas mostly on the east coast.

Transport was the biggest single difference I think. Most people have their own and most are truck and trailer combos. I knew nobody who didn't haul with a full size pick-up and most trailers are goose-neck with the hitch in the bed of the truck. They can be tricky around a tight bend as they cut the corner but marvellously stable to tow and the gooseneck gives invaluable storage. Lots of people prefer a step up over a ramp (especially western riders). Mine had step up to load and ramp to unload. I wish I still had it. I see step-ups gaining a bit here now.

I found it rather lonely in one regard; distances are vast and everything is spread out. Unless you keep your horses at livery with other people you may not see another like-minded soul for weeks. Unlike here where (covid aside!) I might bump in to someone I know out hacking or at the saddlery, over there I rarely did. Which is a pity because, generalising madly, I found Americans to be warm and friendly.

There are lots of pockets around the country where carriage driving is very popular indeed and competition fierce! Again, huge distances to travel, though, for much of it.

All in all, whilst I am more glad than you can imagine to be home, my time in the US was very different but very fun.

Sorry. That got a bit long!

 

[CanteringCarrot]

As others have said, the USA is a vast country so it's really only possible to generalise madly but I found the differences quite marked in some respects.

The Western/English divide is strong, with western being the most common, especially as one comes away from the east coast. (I left the country with a deep respect for the quarter horse. Such a versatile little horse and usually with lovely, biddable temperaments). There seems to be little crossover and some of the competition between western and English factions can be a bit 'tribal' IME.

It's worth bearing in mind that generally there is more disposable income in the States. As a result there seems to be much more money sloshing around in horses. I didn't know anyone who had a horse that didn't have their own transport for example. And prices paid for fairly ordinary horses could be eye-watering.

It was quite a bit easier to keep horses at home over there. Houses and land are often significantly cheaper (we sold a 3 bed, 2 bath, 5 acre, 4 box 'American barn' property for £100k, less than a decade ago and it was not in the boonies). Equine vets were more expensive but the local farm vet, who could come in and do your (many, many) vaccinations and annual Coggins test, were cheaper than here. Repro work was much more expensive. Wormer was less than a 1/4 the price it is here.

In all my time there, in 6 different states, I saw only 4 people riding along a road! Even when the roads are wide and open, no one rode there. There's no network of bridleways, so unless your place is near a state park or trail the only way to hack out is to load up and drive somewhere. (Most state parks are really well equipped for riders trailering in, with trailer parks, hitching rails, picnic sites, toilets etc). Perhaps as a result of this I met a great many people who had ridden for years who had never ridden outside of a manege. I found no tradition of riding across country there, outside the hunting areas mostly on the east coast.

Transport was the biggest single difference I think. Most people have their own and most are truck and trailer combos. I knew nobody who didn't haul with a full size pick-up and most trailers are goose-neck with the hitch in the bed of the truck. They can be tricky around a tight bend as they cut the corner but marvellously stable to tow and the gooseneck gives invaluable storage. Lots of people prefer a step up over a ramp (especially western riders). Mine had step up to load and ramp to unload. I wish I still had it. I see step-ups gaining a bit here now.

I found it rather lonely in one regard; distances are vast and everything is spread out. Unless you keep your horses at livery with other people you may not see another like-minded soul for weeks. Unlike here where (covid aside!) I might bump in to someone I know out hacking or at the saddlery, over there I rarely did. Which is a pity because, generalising madly, I found Americans to be warm and friendly.

There are lots of pockets around the country where carriage driving is very popular indeed and competition fierce! Again, huge distances to travel, though, for much of it.

All in all, whilst I am more glad than you can imagine to be home, my time in the US was very different but very fun.

Sorry. That got a bit long!

May I ask where you lived? Quite opposite from my experience there re the property price, transport (everyone having their own) and disposable income.

I actually find it far cheaper to keep horses at livery or at home in the UK and Germany. I did luck out with good hacking at all of the yards I was at in the USA.

But again, the US is huge and there are definitely some more pricey and less pricey areas.

 

[Baroque]

Hi CC. I lived in six states in all. On the east coast, in the south and in the midwest (tornado belt. That was fun!!). Never been to the west coast or further west than Texas though, except to visit.

But as you say, the country is enormous and doubtless we could talk with 20 different people and get 20 different descriptions of what the country and its people are like. That is part of the fascination of a country so different to the UK despite (almost) speaking the same language Given what's going on over there at the moment I find myself thinking about it far more than I do normally.

 

[Caol Ila]

Yeah, property prices where I'm from are insane. Most people could not afford a two bedroom flat, much less horse property. There were a lot of boarding stables around, because people around the CO Front Range do have money, even if most of them don't have land.

 

[Tarragon]

Do they use blue for a First placed rosette and red for a second in the USA?

 

[GSD Woman]

Tarragon, yes, blue then red then yellow and finally white. I believe most horse competitions still give rosettes. Dog trials often give flat, bookmark type ribbons for placements. Given what entries costs and that rosettes cost I find that amazingly cheap of the trial giving clubs.

 

[Tarragon]

I wonder where the origins of the colours came from ....

 

[spotty_pony]

Feed wise I have heard they feed hay etc as a meal rather than ad lib. Not sure how true this is though.

 

[SBJT]

Feed wise I have heard they feed hay etc as a meal rather than ad lib. Not sure how true this is though.

Yup it’s true in a lot of places

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Yeah but that's true of many places in Germany too.

 

[SibeliusMB]

I know this thread has been quiet for awhile, but I'm SUPER bored (it's cold outside!) so I thought I'd elaborate and clarify a few things for anyone who is interested. The forum yelled at me for post length so I'm breaking this into three posts...

I was born and raised in the US, and lived with horses in New Hampshire, New York (state), Virginia, Nebraska, Maryland, and now in Kentucky. I grew up riding in the "hunter/jumper" world, but also hunted a few seasons in Virginia with the US's most historic hunts, and evented at Training level (3'5") for a season as well.

Horsekeeping
The most important thing to keep in mind, as others have already said, is how large the US is and how varied the climates and environments can be from region to region. There is no hard or fast rule that "all Americans do 'X' or 'Y.'" I can be completely different from one region or state to another, even very different within a state based on what riding discipline and horsemanship school you are in. I think based on what I know of the UK and what I've seen, horse keeping in most of the places I've lived is pretty similar to the UK, and probably has a lot more in common with the UK or Ireland than other parts of the US, like the southwest.

Where I've lived, we turned horses out (preferably in groups) as much as possible, tailoring it to the horse's needs. Most went out either during the day or at night, some lived out 24/7. While in New England and New York, the horses mainly went out during the day and in at night due to the generally colder environments (especially winter). In my experience in these locations, hay is fed either at certain times during the day as a regular forage, or horses have access to free-choice hay at all times. Haylage doesn't seem to be a thing in the US, but there might be niche groups that do feed it or something like it. Type of hay might be grass, alfalfa, or mix, depending on hay prices and dietary needs of who you're feeding. Horses that require additional calories that the forage (grass and hay) can't provide eat some type of grain (hard feed), that can vary a lot depending on the feed company and the horse's needs.

It's a big country, so lots of people keep their horses on their own property, and there is every combination of boarding (livery) arrangement imaginable (ie. DIY, part, or full board) too. I've always boarded my horses as it's easiest for me with a full time job. My current horse lives out 24/7 for part of the year and is currently in during the day/out at night to still maximize turnout. Some barns that have a resident trainer may require clients to be in some kind of training program (partial or full training) in order to increase revenue. There are still plenty of more laid back/boarding only facilities, but those requiring a training package in addition to board is increasing. Virtually no profit in board alone.


Handling/Groundwork
I would agree with others that there is generally a lot of emphasis over here on excellent ground manners and some type of ground work. Now there are absolutely half-feral horses and ignorant owners who don't handle enough or don't handle properly (and they used to pay me to deal with the problem they created ). I don't care for "natural horsemanship" folks as I find they (Parelli, Monty Roberts, Clinton Anderson) are mostly concerned with making $$$ and stroking their ego. I've seen a lot of Parelli and Anderson followers create absolute nightmares out of their horses because of those systems. I do love Buck Brannaman's approach (Tom Dorrance/Ray Hunt school) and Warrick Schiller (Aussie). Check him out on YouTube if you want some good nuggets of info to try on your own horses. I do a lot of groundwork with my horses and I've found it so useful and helpful for establishing communication and expectations. My horse is jumping liverpools and so much braver about life thanks to some groundwork clinics. It's also a great way to get to know how a young horse learns before swinging a leg over it. Good groundwork makes life safer and easier for both the horse and human. I insist on great ground manners and I've been able to achieve it largely through good, basic groundwork.

Training "Programs"
There is definitely a lot of reliance on amateurs and juniors on their trainer, in many disciplines. That said, there are still plenty of folks at all levels who are going it on their own, or occasionally take lessons and otherwise manage their own horses and schooling. So you will see everyone from those that never touch their horse and all care/grooming/tacking is handled by barn staff, to those who do 100% on their own, and everything in between. As I said above, there is little or no money in boarding itself, so more and more barns are moving toward that training program approach to increase revenue. Many adults like this because it's easier to fit riding into a busy schedule with work, kids, etc. Others have mentioned that some less ethical trainers sometimes encourage clients to buy a little too much horse, which then will require regular training, which keeps the client dependent on the trainer's program.

I think all around horsemanship is on the decline especially in the English disciplines, but it's definitely not dead. I just hate that more barns are moving to that full service model which only robs juniors and amateurs a chance to learn about actual horsemanship out of the saddle. I grew up a "barn rat," and spent every waking free moment at the farm scrubbing water buckets, mucking stalls, scrubbing tack, grooming horses, and watching lessons for hours. I still do that as an adult. I love being in the barn and riding is only one small part of it. But the expanding suburbia, increasingly crunched schedules, and some people's expectation of progression and showing are encouraging that rise of "fast food" model of riding/training/showing.

But again...still buckets and buckets of Americans who are perfectly capable of caring for, schooling, and competing their horses on their own or with minimal assistance from a professional.

 

[SibeliusMB]

(2/3)

Hunter/Jumper
So I've seen a few posts commenting on this and I thought I'd offer some more explanations to help folks understand it....there's a lot to unpack. What folks refer to as "hunter/jumper" (H/J) is actually an umbrella term for three separate disciplines (Hunters, Jumpers, and Equitation) that operate in the same world and at the same competitions. Some competitors specialize in one of those three disciplines, some ride all three. Some might have horses that specialize, or some might have a "three ring horse" that can bounce between any of them at a given horse show. H/J is not strictly American; the Canadians also have these divisions and judging standards so I'd say it's more accurately a North American thing.

Hunters
So...if you're used to Working Hunters over there, the North American hunter will probably make you crazy, especially how they've "evolved" into their current state. They make a lot of Americans crazy too, trust me. The original idea of the North American hunter was to judge on traits of the ideal horse for the hunt field (mannerly, quiet, excellent/safe jumping form, light ride, good/efficient mover, etc). The horse is judged on its way of going: it should be relatively flat-kneed mover with a free shoulder (not a lot of knee action = more ground covering stride), have a tight front end and use its bascule over the top of the jump, be exceptionally mannerly (stay quiet and maintain same rhythm around the entire course), and overall give the impression that it is an easy and relaxing ride. I don't know about you guys, but when hunting I do actually appreciate a horse I can ride in a relaxed two point crossing open country rather than one I have to sit and hold together for three hours. Riding a hunter well is an art...finding all eight jumps in perfect stride, maintaining perfect pace/tempo, making it all appear smooth. This video below talks some about the differences in hunters from the earlier days (1960s/70s, footage starts about 2 minutes in) and compares it to a round from a more recent top-level hunter.

Some examples of modern hunters in some hunter derbies. Derbies were introduced several years ago to try to get back to more "old school" hunters: more pace, bolder, etc. Derbies have high or low jump options (higher jumps = more points), trot fences, tight rollback turns, unrelated distances, and often call for hand gallops and even a walk transition to help demonstrate ridability. Out of these three I think Tori Colvin demonstrates more of a brilliant pace but not fast, and young Lillie Keenan (who now is successful in the Grand Prix jumpers internationally...she was 14 years old in that video) shows a bold hand gallop. If anything, remember that the jump quality, manners, ridability and "smooth" is most important in the North American hunter world.
Jacob Pope and Last Word
Victoria Colvin and Private Practice
Hunt Tosh and Flamingo-K
Lillie Keenan and C Coast Z

Now...modern hunters have taking those "ideal" hunt traits and dialed them up to about a 15 out of 10...they've gotten now to the point that they just don't look like they'd go out in the field because they're too idealistic and have twisted the original intent. The hunters over here in the 1960s-1970s look like they'd actually go out in the field: up in front and forward with an open/hand gallop step, look brave and bold but still a harmonious picture (meaning the rider isn't having to sit and drive or hold hard to a fence). Today, hunters often look dull by comparison, look very much on their forehand by comparison, and more emphasis seems to be on an almost robotic performance. The judging standards began to change when warmbloods became more popular and shows moved off the open fields/outside grass courses and into the smaller sand arenas. Horse shows became more "cookie cutter." They wanted more uniformity, and here we now are. They say they're trying to get away from that and award brilliance and get back to more of the judging of yesteryear, but we'll see. There is also an epidemic of ducking and throwing one's body over the fence in the hunters, which is stupid and unnecessary. This video below is from a top US hunter rider, demonstrating (and grossly exaggerating in some cases) the idiot riding trends we see in this division today and why some people do this crap:

My favorite part of this whole thing is when he says, "it's offensive."

So I know these overly dramatic and loose-looking hunter riders beg to be made fun of, but every discipline in every country has its problem riders. Most other jumping seats around the world tend to be much deeper, and riders that lack feel, timing, strength in their base of support often end up left behind over fences and hitting their horse in the mouth over the jump. Bad riding is bad riding anywhere.

And I will say: it is possible for these hunters to do the hunt field with a change in focus. I rode a brilliant WB gelding years ago in Virginia. He hunted first flight during the season and in the summer after a short vacation he was a reasonably competitive amateur adult hunter at the United States Equestrian Federation (USEF) "A" rated competitions (top level affiliated shows). He was well schooled thanks to his show career, which made him an absolute dream to hunt. He was extremely safe and capable field hunter even over the trappiest country and jumps. I had a LOT more fun on him and how relaxed the whole experience was than on one who was much more on the muscle and required a deeper seat and more managed ride. So, it is possible. It's just extremely rare these days for show hunters to ever actually step foot in the hunt field, which is how the division has moved so far away from it's roots....

Jumpers
This is just showjumping. No real difference here from what the rest of the world already knows.

Equitation
This also seems to be a uniquely North American discipline and in a way, is like a blend of the hunter and jumper ring. Like the hunter division, it is subjective and based on the overall impression. Except this is based on the rider's ability to execute the course. It is not solely judged on position, though position is part of it. Equitation (Eq) asks a lot of questions from riders: line/track, pace, balance, etc. Many equitation classes and what we call Medal classes also will test the top portion of riders. These tests might involve removing the stirrups from the saddle and jumping a course without irons, or demonstrating basic dressage knowledge such as counter canter/turn on haunces/turn on forehand/leg yield/half pass, etc. Courses and tests often have unrelated distances, rollback turns, bending lines like one would see in the jumper courses. Equitation is not judged on rails or speed, but rather how the rider determines how to ride the questions asked and how smoothly/perfectly executed they can get it. The idea of the Equitation division is to equip the riders with the skills and technical knowledge necessary to tackle big jumper courses, but with the smooth precision one would see in the hunter ring. This is often a big part of most junior riders' careers especially at the top levels. Most of the stylish US Grand Prix jumper riders folks admire were past Equitation graduates.

This video nicely breaks down rounds of past Eq winners and explains what is being asked/answered in these courses. I apologize for all the Bernie Traurig videos but he's the only one I've found thus far who has put this information together on YouTube:

American Forward Seat
If you've ever watched us ride and ask why Americans never seem to sit as much as what you might be used to, this is why. Many US riders that jump utilize the lighter seat and more forward style that was discussed in the above Equitation video. And we do sit deep when we need to, but in general the approach for many riders and horses is that of the "American Forward Seat." This video (again, Bernie...I apologize and please forgive the George Morris focus) is very educational and explains the forward seat's history and development over the decades and how it was well employed in the US when we rode mainly Thoroughbred and blood types:

 

[SibeliusMB]

(3/3)

Lastly...let me preface this with I have no experience with any breed hunters as I don't ride in breed shows and none of these are my "thing." These are totally separate worlds than what I grew up in with totally different cultures and approaches to training/showing.

Breed Hunters
Normally when we say "hunter/jumper" or "hunters" in North America, we talk about the types of hunters I spoke of above, the USEF and United States Hunter/Jumper Association (USHJA) type hunters. To further confuse everyone, there are other attempts at hunters or "hunt seat" from the many breeds we have here in the States. Each type assumes the qualities of that breed's standards and often looks nothing like the USEF/USHJA style hunters. I don't think these breed hunters are actually concerned with what is required in the real life hunt field.

Quarter Horse/Paint/Stock Horse Hunters
Us H/J types tend to call these types "Wenglish" (Western horses in English tack) because a lot of the times these horses resemble Western Pleasure horses. I believe stock horse associations like AQHA, APHA etc call these "Hunter Under Saddle" or HUS horses and they show at breed shows, not at the open USEF/USHJA competitions (two completely different worlds!). Stock breeds also jump and I think the hunters over fences and jumpers at these AQHA shows actually are much more forward and more off their forehand than the HUS horses. Stereotypically, the HUS horses' heads are very low and on a very long rein with almost no contact, they move very slowly and disconnected (not at all over the back), and on the forehand. I believe the AQHA is trying to move the judging standards closer to the USEF/USHJA type, but I don't know how far they've moved off the below stereotype:

Saddlebred/Morgan/Arabian Hunters
These hunter classes on the flat again mimic the breed standard and are almost the polar opposite of the stock hunter. These types of hunters, which like the stock horses above are unique to their breed association shows. Head is much more upright, and knee action is much more dramatic and movement probably more upright than out for many. By comparison, the hunter specialists of these breeds will have less movement/action compared to the saddleseat horses at the same show.

I can't speak about Western disciplines because I have next to no experience with any of them. We had some Western horses at my university, and I was once asked to warm up the pleasure horses for a Western college competition. I was eventually told I rode the horse "too English." LOL. Suffice it to say that was the last time I sat in a Western saddle.

Sorry for the multiple posts and massive amount of info, but I hope someone found it interesting or helpful. I look forward to learning more about horse life in the UK in the next few months so hopefully my culture shock won't be so shocking!

 

[splashgirl45]

thanks for that, all very interesting ....

 

[Spirit2021]

My friend lives in America there is big differences.

You pretty much be rich to own a horse in America because the upkeep and the cost of buying a horse.

horse aren’t turned out in grass they are turn out on send .

hay is very expensive and they are fed a lot of hard feed ( way to much)

natural horsemanship is very common especially in western riding.

cobs are very expensive.

If you want to keep your horse at a livery yard than you have to do lessons

 

[Caol Ila]

The only one of those things that is categorically true across the board (rather than depending on where you are and what you want to do and how you want to keep your horses) is that cobs are indeed very expensive.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Those are huge generalizations and inaccurate in a lot of places.

 

[SibeliusMB]

My friend lives in America there is big differences.

You pretty much be rich to own a horse in America because the upkeep and the cost of buying a horse.

horse aren’t turned out in grass they are turn out on send .

hay is very expensive and they are fed a lot of hard feed ( way to much)

natural horsemanship is very common especially in western riding.

cobs are very expensive.

If you want to keep your horse at a livery yard than you have to do lessons

...It's almost like I wasted a whole evening during bad weather writing out long posts just above explaining (in detail) all the reasons why almost all of this is almost entirely untrue across the US.

 

[Caol Ila]

But the wee black and white cobs are strangely expensive.

 

[Sossigpoker]

The thing I notice more (admittedly from watching Youtube/Vlogs) is how different the desired "way of going" is in US/Canadian show (and dressage?) classes. You rarely see a horse even remotely on the bit and definitely not behind the vertical.
To my (showing) eye they all seem strung out / downhill with quarters trailing behind, heads on the floor.
I guess to the US eye, our horses all look extremely upright/uphill and held together?
Can any US HHO explain why this is desirable please (genuine question not being nasty)
Also - WTF are the leather straps below kids knees in show classes? DO they not possess jodhpur clips?

This made me think of the American "working hunter " classes! Horses are so long the arse is in a different post code , on the forehand and not even heard of a contact. Looks hideous to me. And would be totally impractical and unsafe in the hunting field.