How do I handle this?

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Crazy_Caz

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Ok basically I have two ponies out on loan - the history is one is homebred and one I bought at 4 (a rescue !) they are like two peas in a pod..... Both my daughters have outgrown so rather than sell them I loaned them both out with solid loan agreements together... Just before Xmas one of the loaners wants to move one of them and for good reason (he has bone spavin and needs regular exercise and the new yard has a sand school etc., so I visit the yard and agree in writing.... So all is fine and I go and visit them today (after 2 months) and to my upset (and my daughters) find he is very underweight and quite skinny) I talk to the stable girl there (he is on full livery) and am told he is on Happy Hoof! (our loan agreement states he should be on nuts, chaff and sugarbeet! and that she has noted his weight loss and has upped his feed! (well I have never used this feed so look on the internet and its made by spillers and is for laminitic ponies so no wonder his is skinny!!

I will call her tomorrow and have a LARGE word in her ear as she has offered to buy him but he is not for sale so how can I be ? pleasant about it?

I will say that tomorrow first thing I am calling the livery yard and getting him off the Happy Hoof.... I didnt realise at the time what it was but now I do I cant believe she put him on it....

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Does she know you went to see the pony - you obviously have that in your contract that you can just turn up?

It is winter so she could be running him lean over winter in anticipation of spring, but if he is VERY underweight as you say, request from Immediate effect that she feeds him what you have requested - Or that she ups the happy hoof and adds sugar beet. As if it is just normal leisure mix type nuts and normal chaff then there will not be that much more energy than happy hoof.
 
Hello and thanks for replying... I informed her I was coming up today and she had to leave due to family comitments.

It states very clearly in his loan agreement he is to be fed pony nuts and chaff with sugar beet and to be honest I thought the Happy hoof was to do with him having the bone spavin but reading up on the internet it is only for laminitic ponies which (he has never ever been overweight!) I have to say in all the years I have had him (some 10 years) I have never ever seen him that skinny bless him! even when I rescued him..... I am very distraught that she thought this was what he should look like when fit!!
 
Talk to the livery yard and get them to change the feed. It may be that he was getting to be too much as so they took his feed down too low.

I would suggest that you talk to them and see why they did what they did and don't move too quickly or rashly, they may have thought that they had good reason (even if you don't agree with it) and talk to them about it and hte problem of moving him off his normal feed.

About them maybe wanting to buy the pony I would explain to them nicely that he is NOT for sale and will never be, sorry.

Good luck
 
i had a pregnant mare on happy hoof (vets idea) she was a little overweight and it is full of all the right balance of vitamins that she would of needed . it is not just laminitic ponys who are on it. she was a 16.3h wb. and my friends 15h cob was on it as she was prone to weight gain. i would find out why first from YO there might be a good explanition. Also it is not cheap to buy so she is not cutting down on expense.
 
I have a horse on loan myself and wouldn't think of doing anything that wasn't stated on the loan agreement without consulting the horse's owner. She may well have his best interest at heart and think that she is doing her best for him so try not to get cross with her (even though thats really difficult and I can totally see your point of view), just remind her of the situation and that you are the pony's owner and that you always will be, and that the conditions of the loan agreement are there for a reason.
As for her offering to buy him, why has she done that? For me, I decided to loan because I'm not ready to buy a horse, loaning is like a sort of 'safety blanket' and I like being able to speak to his owner if I have any major questions..apart from that I treat him as my own.
 
Sorry to hear he's looking a bit thin. Just wondered, with him being on full livery does she actually know they are feeding him Happy Hoof or have the yard put him on it?

If she did change his feed she may have thought there was good reason at the time. Also, the yard may have recommended it and like you she might not realise what HH is for. I would ask why and then say the new feed regime is not suiting him so please put him back on feed as per agreement!
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Hi all

Well it would appear they she asked the yard to put him on Happy Hoof originally..... So I reminded her that it stated in the loan agreement his feed as being chaff, nuts and sugar beet.... but she still disagrees that he is underweight.... thinks he is fit and even the yard manager and two of the A.I's at the yard agree with her.... So I asked if she had weigh taped him recently and on Monday he measured 295kg! When I had him and he was in work he was around 318kgs so thats quite a bit of weight loss....

I asked how much hay he was getting bearing in mind he is a 12.3 welsh sec c who is 15 years old and he is only getting 2 1/2 sections of hay at night and 1 section in the morning - he has a blanket clip and only wears a fleece and turnout rug with no neck cover....

So I am going up to see her at the weekend armed with pictures of him - how he should look as well as nutrition info and info sheets detailing how you condition score a horse etc.,

What I really don't understand is how the yard manager and the qualified staff think he looks fine....

I can see her point re Happy Hoof - I spoke to Spillers and it is defo full of good stuff except it has no sugar, no starch and has no calorific content whatsoever and as he is being worked almost every day - the weight is obviously just falling off him (especially as he is also supposed to be getting 5kg of forage everyday)

I dont want to appear heartless as I have no doubt she loves him but I will tell her she has a month for him to show improvement otherwise I will remove him.... also his loan agreement was only for a year and it runs out in May so I may not re -new it anway.

If anyone wants to see piccies of him then and now - just pm me your email addy and let me have your honest opinion...
 
TBH the weight loss is probably due more to the lack of forage (Hay) and poor rugging than anything else. My Cob competes (inc. 10mile Sponsored rides) on Hi Fi Lite and a Mineral Supp. (equivalent to Happy Hoof). Can you see his ribs, hip bones????
 
Yes you can - I have gathered some before piccies from before.

also his shoulders are prominent and he now has no neck - in the piccies I took it looks like he has a ewe neck and he is a welsh!

I defo agree with you regarding the lack of hay and poor rugging ..... Reading on the happy hoof spillers site there is no calorific content in it i.e no sugar or starch which is excellent providng they have good grazing and plenty of hay... When I had him he was only on pony nuts, chaff and sugar beet but loads of hay...
 
Happy Hoof is chaff, better than chaff I would think.

Perhaps he needs more hay. I wouldn't have any problem in feeding a pony Happy Hoof.
 
Happy Hoof is for laminitic ponies - that is what it is designed for in reality...No Sugar, No starch and No calories... It is defo more than just a chaff - its also very expensive...

Im not against Happy Hoof providing it is being fed for the right reasons and in this case it is not.

 
This is really difficult without photos. In general it is always better for a pony in particular to be a little light, rather than heavy, and what you were feeding before does sound like quite a lot of food unless this pony is a particularly poor do-er.

As others have said, I am sure the changes to diet were made for the best of reasons, and if it appears that others at the yard agree that the current condition of the pony is not bad then you may need to reassess your own perception of what good condition is. speaking as a person who feeds almost entirely fibre the only change I would make might be to increase the hay/haylage available as Happy Hoof should be an adequate complete diet (plus hay/grazing) for a small native, as long as fed in recommended amounts - although this is an expensive way of feeding fibre IMO
 
Hiya

If you would care to pm me your email addy - I can send you the piccies for your opinion.... would be helpful...

I dont doubt the change to diet was made in her opinion for the best reasons but as stated above he is not laminitic and it clearly states on the loan agreement what his feed should be - she should at least have confirmed with me what she was thinking of doing. I normally visit him once a month but thought that up until now he had been fine so would leave it 6/7 weeks or so - so the weight loss was quite a shock...

Look at the photos and let me have your honest opinion..
 
Right, I have looked at the Photo's. (He is V.cute btw).
He looks adorable int he "before" photos, nice and round and bright eyed although for a section C. This is how I would like him to go into the winter looking, although I would want him a little leaner as the new grass comes through.

In the "after" Photographs, I agree he looks lean. I definitely wouldn't want him to loose any more. But I don't think he is extremley thin. Infact , my vet would love it if my pony looked like that as he is a laminitis specialist and loves to see them lean. I do agree with the comment you made on him looking slightly Ewed Necked but i don't think this is due to weight loss. More muscle tone. Does he carry his head quite high? Just a thought, Does he eat from a Haynet which is tied high? I noticed when my boy was eating from a haynet, the underside of his neck started muscling more than the top. He now eats from the floor.

I think we all have our own ideas of what they should look like, i love mine with a nice covering but definitely not fat. I think your pony could benefit from a full nect turn out, and trade the fleece for a poly or such like. He has a line where he looks a little tucked up and this can be caused by cold.
The problem is, you don't want to feed him protien and sugars just as the grass is starting to come through, as you are opening yourself up for laminitis. Happy Hoof really can be useful for the natives. It provides them with the fibre they need wothout exposing them to Laminitis.
It's a bit of a catch 22. You can't risk overfeeding as the grass will come through earlier this year, but you'd like more weight on him. I would ask for some more hay, and a warmer rug and see how you go. I honestly don't think the Happy Hoof is the problem. More likely that he is cold.
The weight loss is probaly a shock to you as you're used to seeing him rounder, but i don't think it's a major problem.
How often is he ridden?
 
Ok, firstly can I please just say again that this pony has never ever been laminitic or had a problem with his weight at any time whatsoever. In the first photos you will see he looks round because he does grow quite a bit of hair for the winter and I did not expect him to carry on looking like that after being clipped and ridden.

He is currently ridden up to 5 times a week (lessons x 1 hour) and lunged in addition to this.

You will note from the pictures that this pony has no topline and no muscle along his flanks or over his stomach. I agree this is no doubt due to under rugging and obviously not enough hay.

The Happy Hoof is a feed designed for no weight gain and unfortunately at this time of year and with the lack of hay and proper rugging this has without a doubt contributed to his poor appearance.

As his owner I am unhappy to see him looking like this and the fact that his feed was changed without my agreement despite it being in the loan agreement.

I am visiting him tomorrow along with the loaner, the head groom and the person that gives the lessons and in no uncertain terms I am going to give them a month to increase his weight and to work him correctly so that he develops his muscles in the correct places.

To be honest as the loan agreement ends in May - I am now seriously considering not re-newing it. At the end of the day I only want what is best for the pony and I have to say at the moment I do not feel that he is in the best place for him.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Happy Hoof is for laminitic ponies - that is what it is designed for in reality...No Sugar, No starch and No calories...

[/ QUOTE ] Can I just correct something - whilst Happy Hoof is a LOW calorie feed, it is not a NO calorie feed! It actually supplies 8.8 MJ of digestible energy per kg, whilst is very similar to Spiller's Horse & Pony Cubes which contain 8.9 MJ of digestible energy per kg.
 
Yes I stand corrected - it should have read low calorie.

It is actually supposed to be used for weight control provided the correct amount of forage i.e: hay and grass are fed also.... I agree it is full of the right vitamins etc., for a laminitic or good dooer...

In this instance it would appear that the hay and poor rugging are contributing to the weight loss..and with the low calorie Happy Hoof - this is allowing him to drop the weight.. which I might add has occured over the last 6 - 7 weeks (so it has been quite fast)
 
Happy hoof is designed for lami's - like dengie good doer is but that doesnt mean it isnt useful for other ponies.

i feed my pony good doer because she is just that, a good doer - she has never had lami. but she doesnt need the calories of a higher nutrional chaff - it would be a waste and i would have to feed her less. i prefer to feed a lower calorie chop and be able to feed her more, enabling more gut action.

happy hoof is chaff - if in the contract you just stated "chaff" then that is not very specific, if you specifically didnt want him on a low calorie chaff you should have stated so.

its hard to tell without pics. weight isnt everything, condition scoring is more important IMO.]

quote"I asked how much hay he was getting bearing in mind he is a 12.3 welsh sec c who is 15 years old and he is only getting 2 1/2 sections of hay at night and 1 section in the morning - he has a blanket clip and only wears a fleece and turnout rug with no neck cover.... "

well if is a HW rug he's wearing a can't see a problem?? depends what sort of weight the rug your talking about it.
what is the grass like there and how much t/o does he get?

my mare is coming up 15 so around the same age - and as you are familar with her you will know she is of the welsh type. she has 2 sections of hay a night and then is out from 7-4.30 on reasonable grass. she gets a small breakfast (2 handfuls gooddoer, 1 hand ful pony nuts, baileys lo cal) and when she comes in some Just Grass and for tea a proper dinner (3/4 round scoop good doer, 1/3 scoop pony nuts) she looks in good condition on this. she is fit and lean - well for winter anyway, she will look better in a few months.

as soon as the spring grass shoots up she will start to wear a grazing muzzle a few days per week. the weight can pile on v quick and at her age i dont want any extra weight on her joints.

maybe a balancer would help?

At the end of the day like you say its your pony and you know whats best for him.

Just a thought, was the moving yards recent - maybe something there is stressing him? the change in routine? a bullying horse perhaps?

can you post up pictures?

if your really upset about the chaff thing just ask her nicely to change it - im sure they will be reasonable - and if they dont TELL them to. it is your pony afterall.
 
Hi Vicki

this pony has always been a good dooer and never looked as lean as this...

His loan agreement stated chaff, nuts and sugar beet and this in itself is not a particularly fattening combination. She changed the feed without my consent so I have told the yard and her to change the feed back...

I am in no way knocking Happy Hoof if that is what people feed their horse - that is their decision. In fact I was not aware about Happy Hoof but now that I have looked into it - its not a bad feed providing you feed the correct forage with it.

The problem here seems to be the lack of forage i.e: hay and possible grazing (he is turned out with 8 others)... His turnout rug consisted of a fairly light weight rug and fleece despite me providing him with a h/w rug and poly warma rug which I have asked the yard to put on him when turned out... We are going up tomorrow with a combo rug as well as a separate neck cover.

The Watcher has seen piccies of him and made a valid point in that

"I think he looks light but no badly so. What does strike me is that he appears to have lost muscle tone in the correct places, so his rump is looking lean and not muscled and his back has lost topline. That isn’t about weight so much as correct riding and schooling (as I am sure you know) – he has the appearance of a pony that has been allowed to go hollow – so if you have an issue with the loaner it is not so much about the quantity of feed (although if he is working and grazing is poor I would be increasing the hay and maybe adding a little oil) but the quantity and quality of work that he is doing so that he builds muscle along the top of his neck and along his back, and defines the muscle under his belly. I think if he was working properly you would not think he looked so poor."

I think the whole problem here is a combination of lack of adequate forage i.e: hay, poor rugging and the work he is doing....

This now has to be changed and that is why I am allowing her a month to rectify the solution. Believe me when you see the pictures you would not like your pony looking like this ....
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ok my absolute honest opinion is this - having seen the pics...

he isnt looking as tip top as he perhaps could.

However - the pics u sent me for comparison as you have said are years and years apart! as you said your daughter is a kid in them and is 18 now! to make a really fair comparison [if im being picky, which i'm so good at lol!] i would prefer to see a photo in the last 1-2 yrs of him being with you from the same time of year i.e cold winter.

i dont think he looks skinny or awful. he looks lean and definately wouldnt want him to loose any more. you can see his ribs in some of the pics which suggest he's a bit too on the thin side - however it is winter and if i stood willow up with no clothes on she would tuck up and look terrible so its hard to tell.

The Baileys website weight guidelines for a 13hh pony is 290-350kgs - i think you said earlier on he is in this bracket? sorry if mistaken. as he is a sec C so will have more bone than a lighter type 12.3 pony if he was mine i'd want him around the 290-300kgs mark and see how he was looking. i wouldnt want him any heavier especially at his age.

agree with you about the rugs. i am a real softy though.

if it was me personally the happy hoof wouldnt be bothering me - i dont think that is what is making any difference at all. And as long as the grass isnt terribley poor i think he is getting enough hay.
i think the problem is IMHO ... not proper rugging and perhaps not proper work/fitness. and the fact he is getting older and taking the winter slighter harder than in previous years - perhaps more so as he is not being molly coddled quite as much as only owners do.
 
quote "he isnt looking as tip top as he perhaps could".



Vicki - my point exactly...

found this on the Baileys website also:

Low calorie
A "low calorie" feed should provide a balance of nutrients (protein, vitamins, minerals) to promote good health with a reduced calorie content. Formulated to be fed in small quantities, the calorie contribution to the overall diet is minimal so these products may help to prevent weight gain or aid weight loss.
 
Exactly. thats why i feed the dengie equivalent. i can feed her bucket loads and dont have to worry about her waistline - really handy for when she's in as she can have 3 feeds a day etc etc

Maybe the loaner's arent doing as much work with him due to the naff weather lately - but they dont want to admit it to you. that could contribute to poorer condition than previous to the winter season.
 
I think the problem is that they are using him more but that the person or persons teaching the child are not teaching them very well as you will have seen from the pictures the underside of the neck has musled due to him hollowing out and there is no visible top line as stated by The Watcher....

Combine this with lack of enough hay and rugging and there is your problem... As you state myself as the owner would molly coddle him but I would also expect the loaner to do the same!

Will have to wait and see what we agree on Saturday....

Watch this space...
 
if they havent owned before i would probably suggest they are trying their best and dont have a clue about topline etc so dont realise anything is wrong - so it might be a case of educating them.

i remember when i loaned and the difference now im an owner. worlds apart. i didnt really have a clue what i was doing apart from the obvious basics - i didnt know how to condition score for example, i know it shouldnt be different but when it comes to the knowledge side it is, all a learning curve for them so if they do end up keeping pony maybe keep a closer eye
 
[ QUOTE ]

... As you state myself as the owner would molly coddle him but I would also expect the loaner to do the same!
...

[/ QUOTE ]

As somebody who has loaned as well as owned - I have to say i am much more scrupulous about those on loan (not that I am careless with my own, but I can please myself how much or little I do) a loan horse gets the back person/vet/whatever they need at the first sign of any concern as I feel I have a responsibility to do the right thing by the owner, as well as the horse.

I do think that a lot of the issues here are down to ignorance, and as i said to you I imagine your loaner would be mortified to learn that anything they have done is not in the best interests of the pony - and it is worth remembering that in your approach when you see them.
 
Whilst taking all your comments on board - can I just confirm that the person that is loaning this pony has in fact owned her own horses before and possesses her BHS stages and can teach......

This pony was loaned out as a childs pony for light use due to his bone spavin..... and was fine until moved to this yard...he is now on full livery...

I have no doubt that she has my ponies best interest at heart as do I....
 
Just an update:

I met with the Loaner, her husband, and the yard owner yesterday. In his defence (the yard owner) had been led to believe that the pony was laminitic (which he has never ever been) he did confirm that he thought the pony had lost quite a bit of weight and had instigated more rugs etc., which he had supplied to the loaner and had increased his feed (which was Happy Hoof as instructed by the loaner) I confirmed to him that the loaner had broken the agreement in not first seeking my consent to change his feed...

I can also confirm that with his diet changed to what was actually stated in his loan agreement and the 100% increase in hay - he had definately already started to look better.... and I confirmed this in our discussion. But the loaner still disagreed with me that he was looking poor.... I even took my sister who had not seen him since the day he had left and she confirmed that he was worringly underweight for him...

I felt I was happy for him to remain with the loaner for a month as he had already picked up and I could therefore see no good reason to remove him. They had changed his feed and increased his hay as I had requested and had agreed to use the additional rugs I had provided.

But unfortunately as we were on the way home and despite all this - the loaner rang me and said "I want it gone!"

so today I went up to collect him. - at a time we agreed...and she unfortunately wasnt there....
 
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