How do I stop an 18month old from biting?

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MyBoyChe

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Brief summary: I am looking after an 18 month old welsh c gelding for his owner, he is in the next door stable to my TB so we have an arrangement, I do the work and he is my boys stable buddy, suits us both and is working very well, Since I took over his care in October he has learnt to tie up and be groomed, feet etc, will lead in and out quite nicely and I have gently bitted him. However, he bites, everything and anything, me included and is quite nasty with it. You can be leading him and the next minute his teeth are in your face, when tied up he will suddenly turn and try to bite and will snap at you over his door. I have never dealt with a youngster before and am not sure how best to tackle this. He doesnt scare me, I will stand up to him and make him repeat things until he behaves but this could be quite dangerous. I dont want to make him headshy by smacking him but tbh even if I do smack him or shout at him he just comes back for more!! I have tried carrying a short stick when I lead him and if he turns on me I poke him in the nose with it but he just tries to bite the stick! I think the biggest problem is that he is turned out alone, next to others, but alone all the same so is bored. I plan to start gently long reining him once he turns 2 in July to try and give him something to think about. He cant go in with my TB and his owner hasnt got anything else suitable so he has all day to amuse himself and then when I show up he thinks Im fair game. I know what I need to do but not sure how best to achieve it, company is not an option Im afraid (not my decision). Can you knowledgable breeding folk help please?
 
I agree its not an ideal scenario, however there are no other babies at our yard and he was getting into so much hassle in with the older mares he was moved for his own safety. He can see others and touch my horse over the fence so hes not completely isolated but I agree it would be so much better if he had a playmate. However, its not likely to happen so we just have to try and deal with the way it is. (He wasnt planned, long story but not mine to tell)
 
Ah, fair enough - seems sensible. It won't help with the biting issue though, I suspect. The sooner he has company the better.

As for biting when leading - keep a very short lead rope on him, so that he can't actually get his face anywhere near yours.
 
As I say, no experience with babies before, is the biting "a phase", something he would be doing with his peers, is it to do with teething or just baby play? Thats why I thought this bit of the forum was the best place to ask :) He doesnt seem to be playing, thats the thing, he has his ears back and pulls a mean face if you know what I mean.
 
if you watch this age group in the field though this is what they do to each other all the time. Best friends will do the ears back bite on rump bit - no malice intended but it is just what they do. Is there no chance at all he could have a similar aged play mate? It is a bit unfair to have an 18 month old just as a stable mate for another horse when their development is just as important.
 
I have had the odd extra playful 18 month old but not when being handled, just getting too much for his young playmates. They are usually geldings, the older fillies are always uber sensible. What I do with young geldings who don't know their place is to promptly put them back in with the broodmares for a few weeks. The mares "sort him out" and after a couple of weeks he can go back in with the other youngsters. You've answered your own question here; the youngster is bored. He needs to be able to play and lose some of his energy throughout the days. I don't know the exact situation you have there but is there any horse he could have as a companion and playmate on your yard?
 
MyBoyChe said:
I agree its not an ideal scenario, however there are no other babies at our yard and he was getting into so much hassle in with the older mares he was moved for his own safety. QUOTE]

did you remove him just as the older mares were trying to give him some manners, or was it more serious than that?
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Its difficult to be absolutely sure Lynne, but one of the mares is very dominant and protective of her group of girls. She in particular was getting very aggressive and it was leading to a lot of kicking, getting cornered and kicked and general nastiness within the group. I suppose it may just have been group politics but the owner didnt feel comfortable leaving them to sort it out for themselves so the little guy was removed. He is the only gelding, apart from my older TB so options are limited. He wasnt bought as a stable mate, its just that as he is the only other one coming in and out of this barn I thought it would make sense for me to do them together, rather than have different feed times etc.
 
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Sometimes one has to watch quite a bit of nastiness between horses before matters settle... I agree it's not fair to have an 18 months old by himself even with company 'over the stable wall'. He needs entertainment. In my experience, one key to boy-training is to prevent them from even starting to nibble on people. Once they've understood humans are not horses they often don't even start to go there (provided they have enough intra-species-interaction).
With mouthy little colts I've had the best experience with simply sticking your hand in as soon as they start the nibbling thing. Once they are at the point they actually start snapping it is very difficult to get rid of the behavior even with focused and disciplined approach :(
Is he still intact? Would the owner consider having him gelded? Because more often than not it is the high-testosterone ones that are more mouthy than others... Just a thought :)
 
MyBoyChe said:
Its difficult to be absolutely sure Lynne, but one of the mares is very dominant and protective of her group of girls. She in particular was getting very aggressive and it was leading to a lot of kicking, getting cornered and kicked and general nastiness within the group. I suppose it may just have been group politics but the owner didnt feel comfortable leaving them to sort it out for themselves so the little guy was removed. He is the only gelding, apart from my older TB so options are limited. He wasnt bought as a stable mate, its just that as he is the only other one coming in and out of this barn I thought it would make sense for me to do them together, rather than have different feed times etc.
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I would have removed him too.

So, how about him and your gelding going out together?
 
Amymay, I did give a lot of thought to turning them out together, as the only 2 boys on a small yard it made sense in lots of ways. However, my TB is 13, an ex racer and is Im afraid, rather spoiled and has got used to a gentler way of life. He likes his own company, is happiest in his own paddock, again within sight of the others but not too close for comfort! The young chap is just too much for him, mine doesnt like to play or run around, he likes to mooch and eat grass, so they're really not suited. In the end I decided it would cause more issues than it would solve. Oddly enough, this morning he was a little angel, let me do his feet, brush him and turned out without biting at all. Funny little guy!!
 
Depending how laidback your racehorse is, he might just ignore and gently put up with the youngster's behaviour, and half-heartedly join-in, and gently but firmly reprimand him when he gets too boisterous. If so, that would be really good horse manners for the baby to learn.

My 18 year old gelding has shared a field with a 2 year old gelding for the past year. The 18 year old's main aim in life is to eat, the 2 year old wants to play. It's amusing to watch them, the 2 year old does snakey-head bites, the 18 year old responds with a halfhearted snakey head, the 2 year old escalates and the 18 year old puts just enough effort into it while not wasting any calories. When the 2yo is rearing up to box, the 18yo's forelegs are just 6" off the ground. When the 18 yd has had enough, he lays his ears back and drives the youngster away. They then rejoin up and start grazing together.

When 2 yr first arrived (as a 10 mth old) was if the baby kicked out at the older horse, the older horse would rest his chin on the baby's bum and walk forwards for a few strides, so the baby got pushed forwards but couldn't raise his hindlegs off the ground to kick. Now, when I see the older horse drive the 2yo away, the 2yo will raise his bottom but not kick out.

Now they often stand like dopplegangers, the youngster adopting the same stance and resting the same hindleg as the older one!

Watching their actions and reactions has been really interesting.
 
Spring Feather said:
I have had the odd extra playful 18 month old but not when being handled, just getting too much for his young playmates. They are usually geldings, the older fillies are always uber sensible. What I do with young geldings who don't know their place is to promptly put them back in with the broodmares for a few weeks. The mares "sort him out" and after a couple of weeks he can go back in with the other youngsters. You've answered your own question here; the youngster is bored. He needs to be able to play and lose some of his energy throughout the days. I don't know the exact situation you have there but is there any horse he could have as a companion and playmate on your yard?
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I would do the same thing. We also have a retired 23 year old ex international show jumping gelding who disciplines all the young boys on our yard. All the colts and geldings get put in with Borane and he soon has them walking to heal :D

Horses need other horses to teach them equine etiquette, it doesn't work if a human tries to instil the rules, as it is usually done with a flick of the ear or a swish of the tail!!
 
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Backing cures biting!

Firstly don't get close enough to allow him to bite you (if at all possible)
Secondly if he does bite you just ignore it, a reaction with just cause him to do it more as he is getting a rise out of you
Thirdly teach him to back up, that way you will be able to keep him out of your space much easier and prevent him from biting you.

Once he realises that he is not gaining anything from biting you he will stop!! Believe me this stuff does work! I had a colt that used to bite and strike, but not any more :D
 
MyBoyChe said:
Amymay, I did give a lot of thought to turning them out together, as the only 2 boys on a small yard it made sense in lots of ways. However, my TB is 13, an ex racer and is Im afraid, rather spoiled and has got used to a gentler way of life. He likes his own company, is happiest in his own paddock, again within sight of the others but not too close for comfort! The young chap is just too much for him, mine doesnt like to play or run around, he likes to mooch and eat grass, so they're really not suited. In the end I decided it would cause more issues than it would solve. Oddly enough, this morning he was a little angel, let me do his feet, brush him and turned out without biting at all. Funny little guy!!
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I would try them together. :)

As others have said, older horses are often very patient with youngsters and they will tell them off when needed and this will make your life easier and the youngsters future more promising (think how many problems under socialised or hand reared horses have).

My poor old TB has been forced to nanny two young arabs. :( ;)

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Have to say try him in with SOMETHING, my yearling is a rude little shite with no idea of what personal space is. I tried to teach it to him but to no avail, so he went in with my 12 year old. She's a mothering sort and had him firmly in his place in about 5 minutes if that. She corrected him when he kept going into her space, reprimanded him for trying it on with me and generally has taught him some lessons in one afternoon. They aren't together overnight as he's not dropped but still a colt but are in with eachother when we are there.

She will teach him what he needs to know from another horse and we will reinforce that when handling him.
 
Thanks everyone, appreciate your thoughts. I know the ideal solution is to find him a field companion but I really dont think it will happen. Youll have to trust me when I say my TB wouldnt be a good match, it would just upset him too much as he can be a stressy sort if things dont go to plan, it has taken me 4 years to get his management right and I really dont want to risk that. He is a very confident young man which is why he was getting into so much bother with the mares, he just wont take no for an answer and they were really picking on him, as the yard is not always manned it seemed like an accident waiting to happen. I will persevere with his lessons taking on board your tips and see how we go. If he seems to be getting worse I will have another word with his owner and see if we can swap the herd around a bit to fit him in somewhere. Wish me and him luck!
 
I will have another word with his owner and see if we can swap the herd around a bit to fit him in somewhere.
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If there's the possibility of that being able to happen - I wouldn't wait. I'd see what you can organise now.

He ideally needs two companions.

Good luck.
 
I'll probably get shot for this but In the meantime carry a jif squeezy lemon. When he goes to bite a quick squirt in the mouth and he'll soon stop. No pain. No drama. Just a nasty taste when he's chops are flapping where they shouldn't be. I used to have to put my arms round a gate post to unlock a padlock. My youngster would take full advantage and bite my fingers. The jif lemon soon stopped it. Just be careful not to get it in his eyes but it honestly is a great deterant and cheap too :0)
 
i used Nipbuster for my youngster. He was nipping me whenever i tried to put the headcollar on him so it was taking ages as I was having to work round his mouth which was going at me like crazy. I bought nipbuster from a lady in the states after watching her youtube video. It's really easy to use and it actually fits onto your finger so horse cant see it and you dont have to worry about hanging on to it or dropping it. Bit like jif - you just spray it at them and they associate the rotten smell with nipping. Took 3 sessions with my horse and he doesn't nip now at all. I rate it and wouldn't hesitate to use again if i needed to
 
When he was in with the older mares, they were getting at him but only to discipline him in the way they do in a herd. It may have helped eventually to have left him out with them. Horses sort themselves out most of the time. He perhaps just needed the older mares to put him in his place. A friend of mine has a mare who foaled last year, the foal was very naughty right from the beginning and the mare just had a go at her for a few days, quite badly in fact. But now the foal is great towards horses and humans. She is extremely confident and the mare seemed to know she had to be put in her place. If he is entire he probably should be gelded. :rolleyes:
 
cruiseline said:
I would do the same thing. We also have a retired 23 year old ex international show jumping gelding who disciplines all the young boys on our yard. All the colts and geldings get put in with Borane and he soon has them walking to heal :D

Horses need other horses to teach them equine etiquette, it doesn't work if a human tries to instil the rules, as it is usually done with a flick of the ear or a swish of the tail!!
Click to expand...

I was about to post something similar then saw your reply. Our Shagya colt, had no companions of his own age but spent happy days with our now 33 year old gelding, who taught him manners.

In Hungary the National Stud at Babolna run herds of three year olds together. The Director told me that young stallions need to understand where they are in the pecking order or they can become difficult.
 
I agree with the advice you've been given, we never have a problem with biting because ours grow up in a herd and learn manners early on.
It's pretty unfair to expect him to not attempt to play as he's only doing what he would in the herd. Can he not go out with just a couple of the mares to teach him how to behave?
I once bought a three year old 16.2 hh from a neighbour, she was stabling it and feeding it four sacks of hard feed a week (yes FOUR). He was turned out daily but became agressive and eventually chased her up the muck heap and bit the side of her face badly. She asked me to take him to the nearest sales so I bought him.
My husband collected him in a chifney (he'd never had a bit in but we had no option) walked him home and he was turned out straight away with approx 25 others. He soon got the cockiness knocked out of him and within a week was grazing on the perimeter of the herd and able to be chased off by even the smallest foal who of course had it's dam as back up!
He never bit again, and went on to have a wonderful life, so please try and persuade your friend what they are doing is damaging to this youngster, he needs someone to play with...
 
A little update for everyone who was kind enough to reply before. Yesterday the youngster in question was finally turned out with a playmate, a 3 yr old filly. He has already had a couple of tellings off from her but they have settled down very nicely together. I walked through the paddock with the two of them in this morning, she came up for a sniff and a scratch but he stayed away from me and her! Lets hope that this is the start of some better behaviour from him. The longer term plan is to reintroduce the two of them to the larger herd once they have formed a bit of a bond as they are the most similar in age. I am so relieved to see him with a friend his own age, my own TB as I said, is grazed alone but can see and touch the others and is honestly happier like this, he is a bit of a wimp and prefers his friendships on his own terms In general Im not a fan of keeping horses individually but accept that they still need to be assessed individually, if that makes sense.
 
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