How do we stop these accidents please? ...

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ponyclubnicole

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I didn't even know eleanor or see her ride and yet I cried when I read about this tragic accident and feel so so sad for her family.

How do we stop this happening, it worries me to think I started eventing last year and at pony club we go on BE tracks which is great.

I have started at Novice level and the rules changed last year so that you don't get any penalties for being OVER the time so that people don't go mad round. But everyone still does and end up with run outs and penalties galore. My horse new to eventing and I were over taken on so many occasions, I was over by 4 minutes on my first run out but I ended up clear with no penalties because I took my time.

Could it possibly be about the time? Would people be more careful if the time didn't matter?

I'd rather take longer and be safe. I was over the time every single time and always overtaken and had spectators laughing at me when at Eridge I slowed my horse down to walk as it's very hilly and he got over excited. We still went clear we still had no penalties.

It is worrying the amount of accidents that could be avoided if we slowed down a bit.

I'm only young maybe i am totally wrong.
 
It's very sad when things like this happen and it is happening far too often too; one a year would be too many and how many has it been this year alone?
I'm speaking as a strict observer, I've never evented ever but my husband is a BE accredited course builder although he only does one course a year which does Intro, Pre and Novice (think I've got that right!) and we were talking just this morning about it.
He feels that we are asking far too much of horses nowadays, the courses are far too technical in a bid to find a winner and they are just not horse friendly any more. After all, horses weren't meant to jump huge corners or tables were they? Years ago, courses would be flowing and even if they were up to height they were built in such a way to be inviting to the horse but frightening to the rider which is how it should be to my mind.
I'm sure I am completely off the mark but it will be interesting to read any replies!
 
I have to agree, fences have always been huge but there was no comparison in terms of technicality in the good old days. Although it's simple fences which seem to cause the problems, I think the effect the technical courses have is in the training of the horses, they seem overtrained and unable to use their wits.
 
You might be young but maybe you have a very good point! Horses galloping in to fences are more likely to make a mistake than a horse going more slowly as they have less time to look at the jump, also if your horse does hit a jump it is more likely to flip over if it is travelling at speed than a horse going at a slower pace. Yes, I know for many people the whole thrill of going eventing is the buzz of galloping around a decent sized course, but are the consequences of what happens when things go wrong really worth it? It would be wrong to ride the xc phase of eventing as if it is a SJ course, but if people did take things just a bit more slowly maybe there would be a few less fatalities. Perhaps the times should be extended slightly at all levels?
 
He only builds what he is told to do, doesn't have anything to do with the design at all apart from sourcing natural timber, that is the course designer's job! Then, once when the course is finished, it has to be passed by the TD (technical delegate) as safe and to the standard for the class. I don't know who is responsible for the timing though, it might be BE themselves.
 
I have to dissagree on the whole time/speed thing!!
Most rotational falls are due to going too slowly (although someone has said that we're not seeing so many of these now?)..
As i posted in the other thread, my view is that horses are so over schooled, they're loosing the abality to think for themselfs!!
 
Iv just copied this from the other post, as its probably better off on this one!

MDM, have to say (although not an eventer) i do agree. For the horses to be working at a higher level in the dressage esp. if 4's are introduced the muscle is different. Just look at the difference in a horse competing internationally eventing to those dressage. They are not built the same. I do wonder whether the need for different muscle tone to enable the horse to perform these movements mean the jumping phases are a little tougher for the horse?!
 
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I think the effect the technical courses have is in the training of the horses, they seem overtrained and unable to use their wits.

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That I feel is part, a large part of the problems. A lot of horses just do not have the ability to think for themselves because they have never been allowed/encouraged to. I also think some of the breeding is not as compatible with serious eventing; they are only coping because they are being told how to do everything; if the rider has a blonde moment, they go to pot.
As OP says, speed seems to have a lot to do with it, perhaps at the 'simple' fences, the riders have relaxed just that bit too much because they class it as a simple fence?
 
I only thought this because my horse went clear with no penalties and went all season without a mark which I was so so happy I was laughed at but because we were new to it I wasn't taking any chances. We had plenty of gallops but I just prepared probably too far ahead for the fences. I understand that I am talking pony club novice and don't have experience of bigger tracks, the pony club open looked very big in my eyes!

I have to say about the horses my best friend is purely dressage and her horse is like a shot putter where mine is lean an athletic and her horse hates to jump and I imagine it's harder for him. I'd love to see a shotputter start hurdling! Maybe it's the same for our horses. The right athlete for the job.
 
i know this is a bit off the point but i wouldnt want to see XC courses made any easier and less technical...they may cause accidents but we all walk the course before we go and so know what we are about to do and if they got easier it might as well be a dressage and sj competition! also the thrill of when you have done a really difficult part of the course right is great.
 
Personally I think it could be due to the fact that now days we have these very manufactured canters coming into the equation when XC course riding. It could also be due to the way that the horses have been developed and bred. Also due to the increased technicality of both XC and SJ courses it means that a horse's canter is now completly different to that of yesteryear- and riders ride the canter differently.
Its the kind of canter where the horse is so collected and almost bouncing on the spot and this means that the rider is almost hooking more and always looking for a good stride all the time. Therefore things are not quite so natural and flowing. Therefore the horse is no longer thinking for himself. (kind of similar to what MDM was saying in another thread)

In the old days , or in Lucinda Green's generation, where they didnt have the technicality of courses or such high school dressage training- riders went XC far more naturally. Riders had all hunted and everything was jumped out of a much more long stride in canter. There was less technical riding involved and less of bringing the horse back to jump technical skinny fences etc therefore the horses were always thinking for themselves.Riders hunted them round the courses so the horses were always thinking forwards and had full focus and alertness for their job. The moment we started to bring them back for skinny fences the horse became in danger of being no longer able to think for itself.Because it is being told EXACTLY what to do- where to take off- from what pace of canter to take off- to jump round or flat- Therefore when a rider has a missed stride the horse has lost the independence of thought.

Not sure if that makes sense but hope you can kind of read around what I am saying!
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I have to dissagree on the whole time/speed thing!!
Most rotational falls are due to going too slowly (although someone has said that we're not seeing so many of these now?)..
As i posted in the other thread, my view is that horses are so over schooled, they're loosing the abality to think for themselfs!!

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I agree too. I am sure Lucinda Green said in one of her masterclasses that I watched that riders get crushed in rotational falls when they are not thrown clear from going a bit faster??

But then surely if horses are overschooled and so not thinking for themselves this is not just the fault of the level of dressage but also the fault of the courses being too technical with fences that need riding with a certain level of precision. Also, the falls are not happening as much at the higher levels and so the level of schooling at novice/pn/int etc is not as high anyway?

I think the fact of the matter is quite simple. 20 or so years ago, these accidents happened less and the courses were rider frighteners and less technical, so surely the fault lies with the courses?
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Just out of interest does anyone have any figures showing that serious accidents in eventing are increasing? I mean in terms of the percentage of people taking part. I'm not trivialising the issue at all and of course one death is one too many but I would be interested to know if the reason we are seeing more accidents is because more people are taking part. I read an article saying that eventing is more dangerous than Formula One racing in terms of serious accidents but it didn't seem to take into account that only ~22 people per year take part in F1 racing.
 
but it's not just the corner type and other fences. Badminton a couple of years ago a 'simple' fence of a gate caught out Pippa Funnell on both her horses - a case of light into dark. No complex turns, no skinnys, just plain hunting gates

Is this a factor that people have got such valuable horses now that they 'cotton wool' them and so now they don't go hunting the way the old days the horses used to be hunted AND do eventing - they learnt to 'find a leg' over the country.

also - the old horses that were hunted - you got far less wingeing about the 'state of the ground' - horses are 'too valuable' now - and so they aren't 'risked' other than at competitions.

That to me is also a factor with the riders - too much 'training' in artificial courses and not enough hunting over real country.

comes back to what someone else said - Lucinda wanted to run a competition with no dressage phase. How many top class hunters would do a dressage in the 30s or low 40s - very few - but a bet they could given the right jockey get round a decent XC course
 
We were discussing this this morning while you were all posting and came to a similar conclusion - there is more of a tendency to control striding and not allow the horse to think for itself - unlike years ago where horses were more encouraged to work it out for themselves.
My personal view is that breeding has changed too, and the hardy TBx that appeared to have a 5th leg and a sense of self preservation is rarely seen at the upper levels these days
 
I have always hunted mine......and will continue to do so as I think it helps so so much with the XC.

Althought I cannot hunt Dexter as he is a hot headed full TB and would just bolt!!
 
The best way to make a horse think for itself is to be a crap rider. My horse has too look after himself as I can barely sort out my steering let alone think about complex things like lines and pace. My horse is highly effective at chipping in extra strides, falling back to trot and finding a 5th leg. My horse is inadequately trained in dressage, never listens to me and is a terrible Sj because he has no discipline. But he is ace xc, looks after himself and will jump the biggest things out hunting with me just sitting there.
 
I havent read the other replies to your post but mine is...we all stop riding! Wherever horses are mixed with humans there will be the occasional tradgedy.If you think about how many people die every day due to road crashes etc, the deaths caused by riding accidents (all of them) are very few indeed. Its about time that we stop dramatising these occurences.Sadly, people die every day for even less. I send my condolences to the family and all concerned as I would in any such circumstance. We all have to remember that every time we approach our horse, pony or donkey, we are accepting the risk. Mairi
 
Ok HollyJ - as you hunt - how many other eventers do you actually see out hunting now ? or any other hunting/eventers ??

and do you think if you can comment that there are fewer hunting their horses now than they used to ?
 
Actually part of me agrees with you about hunting as in the past a 3yo was broken turned away and left till 4yo. As a 4yo it would come into work do minimum schooling and hunt then as a 5yo it would begin its education eventing as it would be strong enough and mentally mature enough. Now with 4yo classes they have to be a very high standard at dressage so are schooled earlier than ever. They never really learn to think for themselves as they become too valuable. I hunt my horse and he loves it.
 
I havn't read all of this but wanted to have my input - I agree entirely 100% with what MDM said - look at how we school our horses these days - all on a surface, always setting up for the jumps rather than letting them work out where to put their legs themselves - horses these days are so finely tuned in to the riders aids that they have stopped thinking for themselves.
I also think the lack of hunting has a lot to do with it - out hunting the horse learns to find a 5th leg but these days horses are taught to go XC by schooling in fields etc

I know this is GROSS generalisation and isn't relevent in all cases.

Also I think a lot accidents (once again not all) but particularly at lower level we need to look at horse and rider fitness - so many riders i see going round a novice XC track and by fence 10 are just a passenger they are so knackered - its asking for an accident to happen.

Just a few of my thoughts
 
saw a lucinda demo many many years ago when she was still competing at top level

she literally just 'threw' poles down on the ground in the arena - all odd angles, odd locations, odd distances and left the horses to work it out for themselves - literally did all her schooling with the poles littering the area all (individual poles, not 2 or 3 together) and the horses had to trot/walk/canter over them as and where they found them

it is still something I do loose with the babies to this day but not under saddle as I do't ride the youngsters any more and the riders tend now to take a pull and 'correct' the horse instead of leaving it to figure it out for itself.
 
Yep exactly what i'm saying!! I do that with any horse I have - If i'm doing pole work i don't particularly walk the distance i just throw the poles down and expect the horse to work it out - and they do and it teaches them to think about things for themselves rather than always working on the perfect stride
 
my sisters horse was an incredibly brave, bold, strong xc intermediate level horse and he was so so safe because he worked it all out himself, you didn't fiddle with him you pointed him in the right direction and hung on as he worked it all out himself even made the time at twelseldown (on his own).l Crap at sj and hyper in the dressage as he wanted out on the track. The tanoy set him off. He was irish and hunted but was a cross country machine. We were always told with him to let him work it out, get him there and he'll do the rest. He was so fast he made her eyes water but he knew what he was doing on only ever hit a fence (skimmed his knee) once. Off for two days and then fine. I don't think he could be ridden in a 'technical way' he knew his job and he did it. He only retired from high level comps due to tendon injury but today at the ripe age of 20 is so fit and strong and wins the xc still. He is a true beauty who does his own job. I can really see the difference with my horses and him. He's one in a million. Thank you all for responding as you are making so much sense I do feel better about going out again as i was really worried that i might not be good enough. I never fiddle with my horses and thought that I 'needed' to be more technical. Maybe letting them get on with it is the answer. It is only pony club level after all and i know you guys are talking about much bigger things but for now you've all made me happier. xx
 
My old intermediate horse sounds just like your sister's. He was awful on the flat and would regularly boot fences out SJ but was absolutely fantastic x-c, a true machine and if I had kept him sound a bit longer I had no doubt at all in my mind he would have gone advanced easily. On one occasion I remember him snatching the reins out of hands (coming into a combination at Milton Keynes Int) because I was fiddling with him. He was always having to put me in my place!
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He retired to the hunting field. (He is the horse in my avator).

On a separate note though, I mentioned to my trainer (BE accredited and a BHSI) that I wanted to hunt my 4 year old this winter for his education. He is sane and certainly not loopy and she was less than impressed with my suggestion, thinking him too valuable and me clearly mad! I think this has a lot to do with it, we think our horses are getting too valuable to hunt, which is surely counter productive!
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I still think they should be able to make all fences with a F-P.
I take the point that logs would be too heavy, but Corners could easily be constructed to have a top bit that fell a short way. The gates at badminton must weigh a fair bit, yet they still managed to put them on a F-P.
 
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