How do we stop these accidents please? ...

its the nature of the sport today sadly. we have to bear in mind that these 'safer' fences have to take some of the blame. in mrs greens day if you hit one that hard it would probably collapse. no chance of that now so the impetus is stopped very suddenly and either you are thrown clear or you are not. i agree with alot of what has been said and i do think as well that riders have a better lower leg these days (grillings from mrs green an influnce) so dont come off as easily but also many tend to ride a whole or two longer than they might and perhaps they should look at why jockeys are generally thrown clear ( traveling fast,shorter leather). some of this is ust physics and the laws of motion and leverage. people learnt to apply them without realising it in the hunting field in the past but thats gone now.
I just pray every time i see a headline that it is not a person i know and love really well. I do not enjoy the stress of watching xc these days which is why i am going to work for a showjumper.
 
the old hunting seat was lean well back - esp over drop fences - not seen so much these days XC but again - used to be

I also was thinking about why the jockeys get thrown clear SChase and not XC - agility springs to mind - these jockeys are 'taught' to fall and roll and get clear - as 'non-racing' riders we're taught to 'go down with the horse' - ie. stay on board if at all possible

with jockeys - there are no 'faults' for falling off - they merely lose the race (and a bit of a ribbing for 'unseated rider' from their peers)

with eventing the idea of 60 penalties for a fall means riders try to stay on - when if they 'ejected' themselves from the horse and rolled clear as it was going down underneath them the rotational falls might not happen to become so fatal....??

if that is a factor then surely the answer is to reduce the penalties for a fall to 20 and increase the penalties for a runout to 30 - the latter would have the effect of slowing people down and also make the less experienced riders more willing to take the longer alternative routes and get 5 time penalties for being slow (and clear as someone above said) instead of 30 penalties for trying to be clever beyond their abilities and going the 'quick' way. Slow and steady is better for inexperienced horses and inexperienced riders.
 
Have you ever seen a rotational fall.? I have had the misfortune to witness two fatal accidents, both with a rotational fall. It happened so quickly the rider would have had no chance of thinking about throwing themselves clear. It was over in a second. Sorry but I dont think riders have the luxury of choice about where they land and how they fall.
 
I am not very 'into' eventing but I seem to understand that there have been a lot more rider deaths in the last 12 months or so than is average. This seems to coincide with the introduction of the short format eventing. I think its possible that people are taking out horses who are simply not fit and practiced enough to sort themselves out and make it round a course safely. Also as the article in Horse and Hound said last week the fences of 'esteryear' were a little bigger and scarier though less technical and therefore the horse either said 'yes I'm going for it' or 's**t thats big, no thanks' wheras they dont understand that after this reasonably sized corner is a sharp left hand turn to a skinny followed by a drop....
 
yes - i have seen rotational falls - both at Aintree and other SChases and eventing - think of Beechers brook for those that haven't - the jockeys very very rarely get landed on by the horse they are on
 
Hi, don't post here very often, and not read all the posts... but here's my 2p's worth...
- Yes, horses tend to be overschooled and don't have that '5th leg' that those who've gone hunting develop. My parents' horses compete at top level, but also go hunting and jump out hacking etc..
- Don't think the technicality is the problem - fatal falls often happen over the more simple fences.
- agree, slow falls worse than fast ones - it's the slow ones that cause rotationals

..... but has anyone else thought it's the media that are making us more aware of all these deaths at foreign events? Just like everyone is now convinced there's a child molester on every corner, we are now hearing about every accident that happens. I lost a good friend at Windsor Horse Trials 15 years ago.... I had a very bad rotational fall that put me in intensive care 20 years ago (jeez didn't think I was that old!) Most of my friends have had near misses... it happens. That's eventing. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but it's a risk we take everytime we get on a horse, let alone jump at speed over fixed fences.
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I don't think its good enough to say "well thats the nature of the sport." We can do better than that its 2007! We all know the risks but we should not pay with our lives, and if we get to the stage where we accept that some competitors will die, I think thats the end of the sport which is trying to gain better recognition via the press. There is always the risk of an accident, I accept that occasionally there may be a fatal accident but these tragedies are no longer "occasional."

I do not think you can compare falls in horse trials with falls in racing, both sports are completely different, and whilst both competitors are jumping fences at speed, the level of technicality and give of the obstacle beding jumped is not comparable. I also don't think for a second, particularly in a rotational fall that riders have enough time or the slightest hope of throwing themselves clear.

Also, in my opinion the fatal falls are not related to short format, the number of deaths appears to be steadily on the increase since the tragedies of 1999.

They need to put FPs on every fence possible and perhaps think about the type of fence they are building and the speed allowed.

I don't know the answer but something has to be done.
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the old hunting seat was lean well back - esp over drop fences - not seen so much these days XC but again - used to be

I also was thinking about why the jockeys get thrown clear SChase and not XC - agility springs to mind - these jockeys are 'taught' to fall and roll and get clear - as 'non-racing' riders we're taught to 'go down with the horse' - ie. stay on board if at all possible

with jockeys - there are no 'faults' for falling off - they merely lose the race (and a bit of a ribbing for 'unseated rider' from their peers)

with eventing the idea of 60 penalties for a fall means riders try to stay on - when if they 'ejected' themselves from the horse and rolled clear as it was going down underneath them the rotational falls might not happen to become so fatal....??

if that is a factor then surely the answer is to reduce the penalties for a fall to 20 and increase the penalties for a runout to 30 - the latter would have the effect of slowing people down and also make the less experienced riders more willing to take the longer alternative routes and get 5 time penalties for being slow (and clear as someone above said) instead of 30 penalties for trying to be clever beyond their abilities and going the 'quick' way. Slow and steady is better for inexperienced horses and inexperienced riders.

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Reynold I think this is an excellent point and would go a long way to helping things. It would be very controversial to change the scoring system but I think this makes a hell of a lot of sense.
 
Everyone agrees that XC courses are now more technical, has the speed - metre per minute changed since the courses have become more technical at all? Are they still being judged at the same speed?

The reason that I ask is that you have to hook back to jump a technical combination or a corner, which means you have to push on to make up for the time you have lost doing this and maybe people are taking more risks as what they see as a more straightforward fence.
 
Exactly reynold, she exactly the same thing when I did one of her clinics about 3 years ago. After years of riding anything and everything round decent sized fences I realised that walking distances was a futile exercise, my horses are the sort, that jump off whatever stride they are on, the way I make sure we are safe is by keeping hold into the bottom off the fence, if its a showjump, yes we might have it down, but on a xc we are never in danger of 'taking a flyer'. If a horse is wrong it is better to be too close, it will either make more effort to get itself up and over (removing the speed which is part of the danger factor) or stop. Either is preferable to a kamikaze jump which at sometime will end in disaster.
 
I dont think the speed does make that much difference TBH, I have done some decent tracks on a couple of very average horses within the time easily (one was quite green), I just think that people dont understand still about riding xc in a consistent rhythm. Yes you have to shorten for the more technical elements, but the rhythm should be consistent all the way round, the sight of people hauling and yanking to get horses back, is not only unattractive it is very tiring for horse and rider and as we all know tiredness leads to reduced speed in reflex reactions!
 
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I dont think the speed does make that much difference TBH, I have done some decent tracks on a couple of very average horses within the time easily (one was quite green), I just think that people dont understand still about riding xc in a consistent rhythm. Yes you have to shorten for the more technical elements, but the rhythm should be consistent all the way round, the sight of people hauling and yanking to get horses back, is not only unattractive it is very tiring for horse and rider and as we all know tiredness leads to reduced speed in reflex reactions!

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Exactly and then they mess up.
 
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..... but has anyone else thought it's the media that are making us more aware of all these deaths at foreign events? Just like everyone is now convinced there's a child molester on every corner, we are now hearing about every accident that happens.

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i do also agree with this... altho something maybe needs to change!???
 
I agree totally with MDM. My horse like hers may not win a dressage comp as is fiesty but went round Blenheim and didn't touch a fence, even when I missed her at a hanging log drop near the end of the course. She sorted her feet out and stayed up becasue she is a seriously sharp thinking careful horse, unfortunatley the same is to be said of her performence in the dressage arena. I know at the end of the day if we are VERY worng into a fence, my horse has the self preservation to do the right thing, whatever that maybe, she wouldn't just jump regardless because I have trained her not to stop/ runout. She jumps between the flags because she wants to not because I tell her too. I think that is the most important quality in an event horse. IMO overtrained horses loose the ability to think for themselves
 
I have only recently - well in the past 5-7 years really paid attention to the actual riding on an XC course, and I think that riders are definitely riding more and the horse is not thinking for itself. There are a few that you can see the rider just getting effortlessly carried around the course, and you can see something in the horses, in the way they go, how they are thinking. I think that they are being turned into horsey robots, and that maybe too much is asked of them too young as well, horses are to precious, courses are too technical - it might work out all well in the riders head but like has already been said, how do you explain that to a horse WHILST it is cantering along? - and that inbred skills and hardiness are being taken away from them.

My horse is not v good at dressage, ok at SJ but when it comes to XC he is apparently a 'machine'. The ears go forwards and he takes over. He can jump off of awkward strides - but also if he knows that something just aint going to work he will get you out of there(with him not off him). He was - so I have been told - hunted after he was broken then came over and was being schooled in flatwork. So before he was ever schooled to work properly on the flat he was allowed to figure out how to sort himself out.

I do also think that modern kit has a bit to do with it to. Saddles that keep you more secure for example - these could keep you more secure at the wrong time.
And also what about rider error/fear? The sport is more open to more people, everyone is invited to have a go - obviously not at a high level - but so you could end up with someone who doesnt have what I would say was a 6th sense for it, they just maybe have a horse that is good and who they rely on, and then at some point the horse needs to rely on them and they cant handle the situation.

I am probably totally wrong, but thats just my thoughts, and also the reason I do not do XC cos I know that I do not have the courage to take control if my horse needed it - i rely on him to save me as he does sometimes when things go wrong with SJ.
 
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If a horse is wrong it is better to be too close,

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Sorry but i disagree - rotational falls occur from getting too close - not from taking a flyer. Taking a flyer yeh you might leave a leg and be sent into orbit but getting too close your horse has no chance of getting its front end out of the way and will risk a rotational fall which is potentially fatal.
 
agreed. Taking a flyer will more than likely result in a horse jumping the fence and pecking on landing (nose on ground job) and thus throwing the rider clear, if at speed.

Rotational falls occur when the horse doesn't get it's front end up and leaves it on the takeoff side of the fence. Cause - slow speed or the rider trying to fiddle instead of being bold and kicking for a long one.

Kicking for a long one, if the horse is wrong, will result mainly in the horse putting front legs on fence and then stopping as it cannot clamber over. The rider either takes the fence 'on their own' or stays on top with a stop.
 
I wouldn't agree with Mdm, Richard (he lived just up the road from us) died in 1996 at Southwell it was all over the regional news/local papers and in H&H, I think the key point is jocks are nearly alway thrown clear because of the speed the horse is travelling at. Jockey deaths are definitely reported.

Below is a list of deaths that have occured during races since 1980... Nowhere near as many as in eventing I don't think. 12 in 27 years.

July 3, 2005: Claimer Tom Halliday suffers fatal injuries in a fall from Rush'N'Run in a hurdle race at Market Rasen.

Nov 1, 2003: Irish apprentice Sean Cleary, 22, dies six days after a crashing fall from All Heart in a Flat race at Galway.

Aug 12, 2003: Jump jockey Kieran Kelly, 25, dies four days after suffering severe head injuries in a fall at Kilbeggan.

Oct 29, 2000: Amateur Trevor Radford, 64, dies nine weeks after collapsing with a brain haemorrhage after a fall on Landican Lane at Goodwood.

July 19, 1996: Jump jockey Richard Davis, 26, is killed in a fall at Southwell.

May 6, 1994: Flat jockey Steve Wood, 26, is killed when suffering internal injuries in a fall from Kalar at Lingfield.

Dec 27, 1991: Philip Barnard, 24, dies the day after a fall on Sayyure at Wincanton.

Aug 31, 1988: Vivian Kennedy, 21, dies two days after suffering head injuries at Huntingdon.

Nov 14, 1986: Jump jockey Jayne Thompson, 22, dies six days after sustaining head injuries at Catterick.

May 10, 1986: Amateur rider Michael Blackmore, 30, is killed when kicked after a fall at Market Rasen.

May 1986: Amateur rider Jim Lombard dies three weeks after a fall at the Punchestown Festival.

July 15, 1981: Joe Blanks, 24, dies a week after colliding with a concrete post in a fall at Brighton.
 
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impressive list but were they rotational falls where the horse squished the jockey ?

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No. But the post was really in reference to Mdm saying racing deaths weren't recorded or reported - they are!
 
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No. But the post was really in reference to Mdm saying racing deaths weren't recorded or reported - they are!

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Not quite what i said..
I was answering someone who had posted in a way that sounded like they thought racing was a more dangerous sport than eventing.. I said hardly ever.. which compaired to eventing (how many this year alone?) you really don't hear of that many racing...
Anyway, this is pointless.

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Mdm this is worse than jockey fatalities and didn't used to happen...what has changed to cause this?


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well you heardly ever hear of jockey fatalities, so can't really compair to it..
 
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Below is a list of deaths that have occured during races since 1980... Nowhere near as many as in eventing I don't think. 12 in 27 years..

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And of those 12, 6 or 7 could have been over fences..
 
i just think horses are pushed far too quickly nowadays and to be perfectly honest i think it should be made tougher for people / horses to move up the grades. i think the whole sport and value of horses etc is just becoming so money obsessed that people are not really taking th etime to really hone theirs or their horses skills.

ive been involved in a rotational fall over an upright fence xc (helsinki steps) schooling george as a 5 year old and with hindsight (wonderful thing isnt it?) at the time i didnt have his full attention on the fence and it just wasnt 100% right for his level of training. i was very lucky get away with bruises even though i was landed on. i certainly learnt my lesson that day. yes accidents DO happen, its the nature of the sport but i bet with more thorough practice and training of xc a lot of them could be prevented.
 
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Below is a list of deaths that have occured during races since 1980... Nowhere near as many as in eventing I don't think. 12 in 27 years..

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And of those 12, 6 or 7 could have been over fences..

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But in 27 years thats not bad going is it, surely more jocks ride a race in a year than eventers go xc?
 
I think speed is a factor. You seriously have to motor nowadays at the top levels and even then, few make the time.

I'm still battling to make the time (and still haven't) at Novice BE! I feel like I'm going crazily fast round the course but somehow Im obviously not. Why be forced outwith your comfort zone? I think there should be a time limit but I do think it needs looking at. From novice BE onwards not many people seem to make the time. Surely this gives the idea that the speeds are too quick?
 
re: reynold's comment:
"comes back to what someone else said - Lucinda wanted to run a competition with no dressage phase. How many top class hunters would do a dressage in the 30s or low 40s - very few - but a bet they could given the right jockey get round a decent XC course"

i competed in that class that Lucinda Green dreamt up, Adv sj and xc only, and interestingly the winner (lucinda fredericks i think) was on a seriously good horse which would have led the dressage anyway! the sj had angles, a bounce iirc, skinnies etc, but the best still rose to the top.
i totally disagree about the second point. a friend (Master's daughter) had a hunting machine which would lead the field over every fence or hedge. she came to a hunter trial and got eliminated at about fence 4... the horse just couldn't cope with the technicality, and it wasn't anything like as technical as a BE course. it went straight out hunting again 4 days later, with her really worried that he'd bottled it, and led the field over 5' hedges again...

i totally agree with the points about horses not thinking for themselves any more.

ponyclubnicole, i think it's great that you're going out and getting clears, but it honestly is slightly safer, certainly at anything of N level or above, to go slightly quicker and more positively, if only because it lengthens the horse's stride and means that the width of the fences (from front to back) is less significant. i'd not really want to jump even a decent novice fence (which can be up to 2.10m at the base, 1.40 at the top) from a slow, sj canter, because i'd be making it harder than it needs to be. when i first did Advanced, i slowed right down in order to be careful, and actually ended up making things much more difficult for my (fortunately very very scopey!) mare... we had a much easier time when i kicked on a bit and got into a good rhythm, and she just took things out of her stride.
from a good, balanced, purposeful xc canter/gallop, a well-trained horse can lengthen and shorten, and a 'miss' isn't as dramatic as it is from a less powerful slower canter, or from a flatter, faster gallop stride. hope that makes sense.
 
if times were made slower then it would make it more of a dressage comp as gd xc horses who are bold and quick would have no advantage on the xc course but yet there dressage might not have been very good and so they couldnt move up many places at all.
 
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