How do you deal with a horse that's just totally lost their head?

[sleepingdragon10]

Sort of similar I guess to the stressy horse post, but with a different angle.

If you're riding and your horse just loses it, and you KNOW that you are in the brown stuff, how do you deal with it/what do you do? Do you dismount and leave the argument for another day, or do you continue knowing full well you're about to hit the deck no matter what you do?
Was riding Naughty Pony yesterday and he got spooked by some sheep that were larking about. After that his head had gone, there was absolutely no way I was going to get any sense out of him.......he showed me his rodeo horse impression, his eyes were out on stalks and he was throwing a major tantrum.
I chickened out and got off. I sat his spook, and his bolting across the arena, and the rodeo act, but he was totally wired.

Would you have just grown a pair, so to speak, and carried on riding praying that he calmed down, or would you have saved it for another day?

Cheers

x

 

[Fairy Dust]

hhmmm.... I would normally try my best to sit it out as surely the pony will now know that he can get away with the naughty behaviour?? I fully understand why you got off but maybe next time you could try lungeing so that he can do the handstands and rodeo with you safely on the ground!!!

My mare is a rearer and I have only ever got off once as it just wasn't safe but put her straight on the lunge so that she still had to work! Maybe try a neck strap or something so that you feel more confident next time? Hopefully pony won't take too much offence to the sheep next session!

 

[sazzle44]

Get off and walk away. I had a pony once with some sort of seasonal disorder (I think that's what the vet said) and she would just go into one. Properly losing it, broncing, leaping, spinning, charging off. I was never scared when she was doing I but had soo many near misses and she never got better I just though 'is it worth it?' When I've got on horses since which I feel have 'lost it' as in, no awareness of what they're doing, just trying to get you off, I just get off at the first opportunity and leave it.
I suppose if I saw it as something which could be fixed I might work through it, but at the end of the day if I have an accident, I can't work and then I'm a bit screwed! xxx

 

[wellsat]

I ride through it, let the frustration of it give me the adrenaline to sit it out and then keep going until the horse has done at least something nice before getting off.

I've had several horses who were serious tantrum throwers with previous owners who learned that it didn't work with me because I didn't ever get off.

 

[spike123]

I'd get off and lunge them until they decided to start paying attention to me and then and only then would I get back on.

 

[kerilli]

it depends where it happens, really. at home i might be tempted to get off and lunge the high jinks out of them, but out on a hack (this happened to me 3 days ago, my saner young horse lost it three times running, at, respectively, a sparrow, a lump of turf, and then 2 ducks, span round and then tried to drop me each time because i moved!) and had me hanging out of the side door every time, the minx) i just managed to stay on somehow and then got on with it. i'll put them into a sort of 'full pass' if necessary, they tend to lose power going totally sideways, they can't engage both hindlegs to push if they're taking sideways steps (so far anyway.) if the horse starts high-blowing and utterly loses it sometimes a small circle, repeated calmly, will give them time to refocus... or me time to get my bum back in the plate, i guess... must admit, the air does turn a bit blue, and sometimes that seems to impress them into being good again!

 

[Firewell]

I sit it out but in the safest way possible lol. I go 'woah woah' in my best mother soothing frightened child voice, grab the front end and pull their head up as quick as poss, pull them to a halt quick as poss and sit very still and relaxed until their heart starts to slow down and their brain catches up with them! I usually face them to what they are spooking from so they can see. I pat them, chat to them and sit like a potato all heavy and relaxed!
Once they have calmed down I slowly carry on what we were doing before but I try to be very positive with a 'c'mon you've had a look now get on with it' attitude. That's with my TB's though who are sensitive and pull up easily, not sure what I would do with one that bogs off! Probably bail lol. I'm lucky in the fact that my method seems to work *touch wood!!!* and I rarely fall off. The only time I have ever gotten off was with a strange horse that felt like it really wanted to deck me, I jumped off in the blink of an eye I wasn't risking my safety lol! I don't do that with my TB as I know he is scared and he is not trying to dump me
Sorry I've waffled!!

 

[Firewell]

Forgot to add, I also wouldn't deal with a horse that loses it to the point of decking me! My horse can be razor sharp but with a half decent seat and a bit of common sense he is fine, he would be mortified I think if I fell off! I wouldn't ride any horse that didn't have that sense to listen even if they are frightened, it can take my horse a few seconds of exploding when he is terrified but he does listen and will stop. All my previous horses while sharp have that sense of responsibility. If a horse freaked out and made me fall of regularly I wouldn't go near it with a barge pole. Not worth it

 

[sleepingdragon10]

hhmmm.... I would normally try my best to sit it out as surely the pony will now know that he can get away with the naughty behaviour?? I fully understand why you got off but maybe next time you could try lungeing so that he can do the handstands and rodeo with you safely on the ground!!!

My mare is a rearer and I have only ever got off once as it just wasn't safe but put her straight on the lunge so that she still had to work! Maybe try a neck strap or something so that you feel more confident next time? Hopefully pony won't take too much offence to the sheep next session!

With hindsight, I really should have got the lunge line out and made the monkey work, then got back on, but, I didn't!

Pony is a bucker, it's his preferred mode of tantrum, and these tantrums have been a long standing issue.......if he doesn't want to work that day, he'll just chuck a strop.

I've been tackling this on the ground, long lining and lunging(although long lining gives me more control as he now thinks it's funny to spin round and naff off on the lunge). Yesretday was my second time back in the saddle since he did the same thing out hacking before xmas, only that time I fell off and ended up with whiplash.

He is rising 5, so yes, still young, but it IS time he started to knuckle down to some work!

 

[sleepingdragon10]

Forgot to add, I also wouldn't deal with a horse that loses it to the point of decking me! My horse can be razor sharp but with a half decent seat and a bit of common sense he is fine, he would be mortified I think if I fell off! I wouldn't ride any horse that didn't have that sense to listen even if they are frightened, it can take my horse a few seconds of exploding when he is terrified but he does listen and will stop. All my previous horses while sharp have that sense of responsibility. If a horse freaked out and made me fall of regularly I wouldn't go near it with a barge pole. Not worth it

See, once he loses it, that's it, there's no getting through to him. I'm hoping it's something he'll grow out of as he matures..........

 

[sleepingdragon10]

Kerilli, I suppose the one positive is that he always reacts the same way if something sets him off.......but on a negative note, he will always lose it totally, there's no middle ground. He went from being relaxed, bending and stretching etc to full on scary pony mode in a split second. Once he'd spooked, he was shaking and jumpy and generally being a prize t*t.

 

[mystiandsunny]

My philosophy is never to get into an argument I can't win. If I have a better chance on the ground, I'll take it, but will get back on before the end to reinforce that they need to behave and work nicely under saddle. Sometimes, with fear reactions, you are better off getting off, as your presence on the ground will calm them, then re-mount elsewhere/after the stimulus has gone away. Sometimes you're better off riding forward, away from the fear stimulus - depends on the horse and the situation. With 'high jinks', I tend to avoid my horse getting to the point where she really needs to let loose, and if she does, get it out by lungeing/jumping/going for a good gallop.

In your situation, would have sat the initial stuff, then put him on the lunge to get it out of his system, get a bit tired and calm down. Then would have got back on for a few mins and made him work nicely before finishing the session. Alternatively, might have exited the arena and found a friend to stand in there with me if that would have helped him (some horses it makes a huge difference to, some not at all). He needs to know that the rodeo, regardless of the cause, doesn't get him out of work, but you don't need to put yourself further at risk to calm him down.

 

[sleepingdragon10]

My philosophy is never to get into an argument I can't win. If I have a better chance on the ground, I'll take it, but will get back on before the end to reinforce that they need to behave and work nicely under saddle. Sometimes, with fear reactions, you are better off getting off, as your presence on the ground will calm them, then re-mount elsewhere/after the stimulus has gone away.

Thanks I hadn't thought of it that way.......I've had him since he was 11 months old, so almost 4 years, and he'll generally follow me anywhere, so it would make sense to calm him from the ground first.

Lesson learnt......stop being a wuss and get on with it!

 

[sleepingdragon10]

Forgot to add, turning him away from whatevers set him off is usually a bad idea, as he'll just blindly run. I need to have a toolbox of methods to work him through these moments so it doesn't become a learnt response and consequently end up being dangerous to even get on his back.

 

[kerilli]

hmm, well, i'd be very suspicious of his saddle, tbh, and definitely try him in another one, a trusted one that's the right size and width for him but not the same make as his usual one. most horses are pretty happy to work, it's harder work to buck like stink, so i'd be looking for physical reasons why he suddenly loses the plot...
with my mare, i know it's not physical, she goes along looking for dragons and then finds them (surprise surprise)... whipping round and running off because of a SPARROW fgs...

 

[clairebearnz]

Tally has two forms of tantrum. The first is his "make me!" tantrum, where he draws an imaginary line, and refuses to go beyond it. He will rear, and spin, and buck but he will *not* go over this line. With these, I argue with him until the cows come home, and do eventually win (he gets bored before I do, usually).

He also has the "MY MIND IS GONE!" tantrum (usually caused by other horses/lack of work/being chased by a duck etc...), where he will only buck, and he just keeps bucking until I come off, or manage to get him moving again. After, he's in full 'I'm an Arab and the world is exciting' mode with his tail up. If he starts this, I usually hop off, take him somewhere quiet with nothing exciting happening, and trot him in circles until he calms down.

He's had his back/teeth/feed/feet etc all checked, and it's just him. I think most horses grow out of these phases but he's...uh...16 (rising four) now.

 

[Orangehorse]

Is he always like this? Has he ulcers? I thought ulcers were very rare, but I spoke to someone recently who says the research is that even foals can be born with ulcers and in some classes of horse, TBs in training, the incidence is 90% and it is very high in all other sorts of horse too. It can't be cured by lifestyle, first it has to be cured with medication and then keep them differently so it doesnt reoccur.

 

[sleepingdragon10]

Kerilli, I appreciate what you're saying, and respect your opinion, but I honestly don't believe it's a physical problem. The initial spook/bolting was due to the sheep, and the resultant tantrums were because the YM's horse left the arena, and I managed to stop him naffing off again.........he tried to take me out of the gate, but I stopped him in his tracks, hence the broncing.

clairebearnz, that pretty much sounds like my chap......once he decides he's not doing somehting, it takes nothing short of WW3 to get him to go any further, and these are the issues that I'm tackling with him atm, hence my initial question.

Orangehorse, tbh, ulcers hadn't crossed my mind at all.

 

[outandabout]

Depends - When mine throws a tantrum (he's getting better and they are getting fewer!) I would normally try and sit it out and persevere until he has done something nicely, even if it is just trotting obediently in a circle. This has often meant totally re evaluating my aims for a schooling session, but I do try and finish on a positive note. Mine is the sort of horse that if you get off and put him away, he cottons on very quickly that bad behaviour results in him not having to do any work and he'll be worse next time out.

If we're out hacking, I just sit it out - same as before, if he gets to go home early he'll be worse next time. If it's getting dangerous (maybe he's kicked off in traffic) and I do have to go home, he goes straight in the arena to do some work.

I've got off and lunged him before when he has really lost the plot and you can't put your leg on without him exploding, but still got back on afterwards.

His teeth are up to date, his saddle is regularly checked by a Master Saddler and his physio and he is regularly seen by said physio. He gets no hard feed, just a little chaff, vits and his calmer <--- which seems to take the edge off the insanity, you can't imagine what he was like before I started feeding this!!

clairebearNZ - mine is a PBA and sounds exactly like your chap!!

 

[kerilli]

fair enough, OP. umm, in that case, i think i'd probably try to get someone like Richard Maxwell out on a 1-to-1 basis, see if you can find a way of getting through to the horse when he gets into that kind of mindset.

 

[siennamum]

I would do as others suggest, but would also ask why he has tantrums. I don't think they are normal. If I had a horse which was more than just silly some days due to high spirits, then I would wonder why. Especially if it were a pony or cob.

I would ensure no excess food (I'm sure you do anyway), I would turnout 24/7 if at all possible (sure you do). Most importantly really woudl be to ensure with a young animal that it does varied and enjoyable work. there's nothing like abored horse to find ways of enlivening a shooling session. I aim to have hacks as the bulk of their work, and for them to relax and enjoy their hacks. A young horse throwing a tantrum in an arena, could be protesting at the work.

 

[sleepingdragon10]

I would do as others suggest, but would also ask why he has tantrums. I don't think they are normal. If I had a horse which was more than just silly some days due to high spirits, then I would wonder why. Especially if it were a pony or cob.

I would ensure no excess food (I'm sure you do anyway), I would turnout 24/7 if at all possible (sure you do). Most importantly really woudl be to ensure with a young animal that it does varied and enjoyable work. there's nothing like abored horse to find ways of enlivening a shooling session. I aim to have hacks as the bulk of their work, and for them to relax and enjoy their hacks. A young horse throwing a tantrum in an arena, could be protesting at the work.

Hiya

He lives out most of the year, and is only on 1/2 scoop of alfa a lite for the purpose of his supps(he was on a full scoop but have knocked that down this last week).
He is by nature lazy, and as I've been quite soft on him in the past he just thinks he can chuck a strop and get out of working.

 

[SpottedCat]

I'm sure you realise this, but alfa a can make even the sanest horse loopy - my eventer can't tolerate it at all, but is fine with other products just with some alfalfa in. Personally I'd swap it to something like Mollichaff high fibre alfalfa and see if that makes any difference at all. http://www.friendshipestates.co.uk/vmchk/mollichaff/mollichaff-high-fibre-alfalfa.html

 

[sleepingdragon10]

I'm sure you realise this, but alfa a can make even the sanest horse loopy - my eventer can't tolerate it at all, but is fine with other products just with some alfalfa in. Personally I'd swap it to something like Mollichaff high fibre alfalfa and see if that makes any difference at all. http://www.friendshipestates.co.uk/vmchk/mollichaff/mollichaff-high-fibre-alfalfa.html

Yeah, I know some can't tolerate alfa a........and I do need to go to the feed store next week to get some more, so will have a look what they have instore and try him on something else, see if that makes a difference

 

[diggerbez]

my horse has tantrums too he only does it in the school at home and , after a lot of thinking and trying other things, have concluded that its because he is bored and entertaining himself. i try my best to ignore him (so i ride with ipod on and sing away to myself) and everytime he does something idiotic i try to do something that is hard work for him to try and get his attention back. having said that i got on today and it was like sitting on a bomb- he was trotting slowly round but you know when you can just feel that he is about to implode should something happen to scare him? i got off and lunged him for 15 minutes. that took the wind out of his sails

 

[Taffyhorse]

Mine never really throws tantrums as such but he can get himself into a proper tizz from time to time (he's a Sec D!). Once he's in that mode, its really difficult to shake him out of it as he just winds himself up more and more - generally this happens on windy days. I know a lot of horses are sensitive to wind and he has developed this to the nth degree.

He's never decked me in this mood but it is like sitting on an unexploded bomb and life can be a bit 'interesting' as he spooks, spins, is likely to shoot off and stop dead a few strides later. If we are out hacking, I normally sit quietly but keep him going forward, try leg yielding, shoulder in, anything to try and get him focussing on me and try and get back to the yard (pref in one piece!) and the school which is the 'safe' environment (and its rubber so if I come off hopefully I'll go boing rather than splat! Also its enclosed so don't have to worry about him escaping). Once in the school, I will work him as normal and if he feels a bit sharp will prob do a bit more canter work to burn off any excess but focus also on lots of circles, serpentines, changes of rein etc. I don't tend to do lots of transitions when he's like that as stopping and starting just sets him off, I just send him into a forward, working trot (using lots of half halts) and take it from there.

In your situation though - yes, I probably would have gotten off and then lunged or something before getting on again. No point in getting yourself into a battle that you're not sure you will win - I also find, if I'm worried about falling off (which I do cos I'm a wuss these days and don't bounce very well either), I tense up and although I try and relax and ride through it, the tension is in my body and he picks up on that - (he's also the kind that very much takes his cue from you) if I get off and lunge or loose school before getting back on, it helps to break the cycle - he can let off some steam and calm down and I can focus on relaxing and working him before I get back on him.

You have my sympathy though, its not pleasant when they are like that and sometimes its really difficult to know what to do for the best.

 

[henryhorn]

If you are in the arena get off and put side reins on, and lunge him until he is getting puffed. Then get back on (removing side reins first) and try again.
If you are out hacking divert his attention by asking for a small circle, some sideways steps etc, or just give a damn good half halt and say "NO!" firmly.
There is a vast difference between a few cheeky bucks and losing the plot, if this is a pony then really you should be able to sort him, he's taking advantage.
Look back at your basic breaking technique, have you been indulgent with him, or have you been calm and firm?
Look at his feed and regime, unless he's an incredibly firey type he should be capable of a schooling session without this nonsense.
To behave as badly as you describe you have either not got him understanding who is in charge or he's overfed/underworked. If he is kept in, try and turn him out instead.
If this isn't possible, lunge him for at least 20 mins before you get on board, and I mean work him not let him amble round trailing his back end!
We tend to rarely get off youngsters unless we can feel they are about to explode, in which case we do the above, work them harder to lessen the chances.
I would question sticking a child on him at the moment if he is likely to do this, sorry but you can replace him, not your child.
The trouble with baby horses is they learn incredibly fast, and by getting off you taught him if he explodes you get off and he doesn't get worked, so next time firstly prevent it happening, then make him tired enough not to feel explosive, then ensure your own riding ability is such that you can teach him what 's required.
Sorry if this is tough talking but educating a youngster has to be done correctly or you mis-educate them instead, creating ahorrible horse for the future...