How do you encourage forwards

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Sammy1983

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I have started working my boy in the school and he is being incredibly lazy. I rode him last year and he was very good off the leg but he was owned by someone else in the last 12 months and I think he's just learnt to switch off. As long as I don't take a contact he will go forward from a light squeeze quite happily. As soon as I ask for a rounder outline he grinds to a halt I have to squeeze constantly to keep him going as soon as I relax my leg he slows right down. I've tried a schooling whip and backing up my leg every time but it only has an effect for about 3 strides. Has anyone got any other suggestions I'm currently asking for a very light outline with a very soft hand as I'm more concerned about getting forwards and off my leg rather than a true outline.
 
The backing up method is not great long term as it just desensitizes them to the whip. I would suggest getting off the horse and going back to basics, lunging with voice commands/clicks and using a schooling whip on the ground or with a flag attached (don't make contact with the horse if you can help it). That way when you get back on, you can back up a very light leg with a click and your horse will leap forwards. And I really do mean they will leap forwards. You need to lunge only and not ride for a little while but this pretty much always works to re-sensitise a horse. When a horse isn't responsive to an aid, the worst thing you can do is make the aid stronger and stronger - instead you need to find a way to make it as light as possible while eliciting the desired response and then re-establish the association between that light aid and the one you want them to listen to. Voice is really the best you can do there and then reestablish the link between voice and leg (and seat) later.

I should add that you want to be keeping lunging sessions short to begin with (like 20 mins) with lots and lots of transitions, including to halt. When your horse gives you a good upwards transition, immediately release pressure - so stop your forwards commands, whip voice etc and relax your body language - and then ask for a downwards transition after a few moments. You need to motivate them to want to respond sharply to your mild upwards transition commands so they need to believe that by doing what you want, they get to relax sooner. If the horse breaks out of the gait you want it at, get after it by walking towards it as you give the upwards command until it returns to the desired gait. Don't let the horse transition down when you haven't asked for it and keep the pressure on until it does what you want again. Then instantly relax your body language to reward. They learn really quickly but your timing is crucial.
 
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Have used a similar method to Barnacle, but with a rider on the horse and a separate person lunging.
Very important not to give stronger aids (as Barnacle states) or lots of repetitive leg aids, which as you state is probably what the previous rider did.
Kyra Kirkland uses a method involving mounted rider with whip taps; can't remember all the details off the top of my head, but you can probably find it on line. also tried this with one horse and it worked.
There was also an article recently in horse and hound with a similar method i think (about 3-4 weeks ago?). Perhaps someone with an old copy could give the name of the trainer and more details on it.
 
Hi many thanks for suggestions and they do make sense to me but my boy lunges like a dream he is absolutly push button all it takes is a click to get an upwards transition and a gentle whoa for a downwards but the voice doesn't seem to transfer to the ridden work. I wonder if I could try getting someone to lunge whilst I'm riding to see if that helps.
 
Just a suggestion I could be way out here but as your horse has been away with someone else and as all the problems are when mounted could it be a saddle issue or some other discomfort? Would they have had his saddle and back checked while they had him you know what it's like some people don't give it a second thought.
 
ghostie said:
Hate to cry saddle/back issues but the fact tht he is forward on the lunge and until you take a contact suggests a pain issue to me
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Yes, it could be. But it could also be that the horse has been conditioned to stop or slow down as soon as it has a contact (due to rider hanging on mouth) which is very very common, so I think Sammy needs to explore both options. I.e. check saddle etc. plus see if the horse will go using rider/lunger combination. Could also see if horse not showing the same signs when hacking or in a fresh environment, or even riding round its own paddock. Some horses are so bored with the school you can feel them droop as they go through the gate.
Lots of different things to explore and check to rule in or out the different factors.
 
I'm going to do something unusual on this forum and say it might actually not be back or saddle issues!!

When a horse is asked to work in a contact, in a proper outline, he needs to really work from behind and engage the hocks, and this is HARD. Sounds to me like your horse is objecting to working :) My mare does this a lot - she would happily trot round all day on a loose rein - ask her to work correctly from behind and she slows down immediately! I focus on a lot of transitions with her, which helps the forward - upward, downward, simple changes, direct, indirect etc.

How fit is she? Does she do this on one rein over the other? If she's not fit, or has not been worked correctly, this is probably totally new to her. I would suggest not worrying about an outline for now - get her going forward and work on transitions. Build up her strength behind by doing lots of hillwork, canterwork out hacking etc. I use hacks a lot to focus on forward and responsiveness to contact, as it's much easier to establish this in a straight line, than it is on a continuous bend around an arena. Once she has got this the arena work will improve.

No harm getting the teeth checked/rasped to ensure that she is happy to take a contact! How is she in her mouth? Is she fiddly at all, and what kind of setup have you RE bridle and bit?
 
Hi guys thanks for all suggestions. He is not very fit at the moment and has had a while off work due to various reasons. Here's my previous post for those who haven't seen it
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...rrival-the-story-now-begins-(I-rode-him-today!)
I am not asking him to work to hard but would like him to work correctly to help build his muscles. Back and teeth were both done a few weeks ago and he is currently ridden in an egbutt french link with a cavesson noseband.
He will work in an outline out hacking and is quite forward as well. I do feel that when he's been ridden in the school by previous owner he's been allowed to get away with not going forward and it's been boring for him it almost feels like he mentally switches off and use of leg to get him forwards only works for a few strides and then he switches off again I don't want to have to bag constantly with my legs to get forward movement and although I appreciate he should improve when fitter I don't want him switching off from my leg now.
He hacks 4 days a week and schools for 1 at the moment, I'm wondering if I should hack and then take him into the school for 10 mins and see if the hack helps with the forward movement and mentally stimulates him a bit more.
 
Is he responsive to your leg and willing on a hack?
Regardless or not of whether a horse is fit, it should still start off at an active walk e.g. if a horse had been out of work for a year (for non-injury related problems), i would only give it a short walk each day for the first week but i would expect that walk to be active and not having to nag it to go.
 
Sammy1983 said:
He is responsive to my leg and willing on a hack. As I said I'm not expecting him to work hard but I would like it to be correct and active
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I agree that it should be correct and active when asked, and it doesn't sound like you are asking for long periods so this, combined with the point that it is situational (i.e. only in school and not on hacks) suggests it is not saddle/pain related and that your first 'diagnosis' is the correct one. Am assuming the school doesn't have an unusually deep/slippery/uneven surface. I would try one of the methods for resensitisation to the leg, and would probably combine it with just schooling on hacks for a while until it is re-established.
 
Wkiki could you recommend a method as most people seem to suggest trying things on the lunge and I don't have a problem with him on the lunge. Many thanks
 
Sammy1983 said:
Wkiki could you recommend a method as most people seem to suggest trying things on the lunge and I don't have a problem with him on the lunge. Many thanks
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No worries, although it would be best if you found an instructor to help as sometimes different responses are needed depending on what the horse is doing at the time and there is not one simple set of instructions that would cover all circumstances.
I did suggest some methods at post number 3 (first page). I have used the lunge person combined with rider (me riding) with success. I always take the contact that i want (light, but definitely with a connection) and use very clear aids e.g. decide exactly what leg aid you are going to use and back it up from the person on the ground. This may be the way to go because he is so good to lunge. Also, have a very distinct aid when asking for softening of the contact and a change in the outline of the horse, so that it doesn't get confused and think you want slow down.

There was definitely a good article on it by a top rider in horse and hound some weeks ago, but i only read a friends copy and can't find it in the last few issues. However, the principle was that you apply the pressure you choose and the horse is expected to respond.

Take extra special care that you do not use a leg aid when you don't mean anything, or without backing it up with something. I was watching someone give a lesson the other day and the rider gave about 18 nudges with the heel for half a circle at walk, without realising it. The timing of reward is critical for any of the methods, as is being very specific with leg/hand positions and signals, and you must never ever block the forward movement with the reins as that would just confuse him.
 
Vote for a good instructor here! Having someone good on the ground has helped me enormously. After just our second lesson today my boy is much sharper off the leg and working nicely into the contact, although not consistent we are definitely getting there. With some horses (mine included) you have to shout before you can whisper. This meant a squeeze, kick, and tap with the whip, and leg off when you have got what you want (I was guilty of nagging) A good instructor will sharpen up your timing and thus increase your effectiveness.
 
I am currently reading an old copy of H&H and it has the article in which people have referred to. It is the 26th March 2015 issue and the article is by Richard Davison. You could try to get hold of a back copy from H&H.
 
If the horse either won't go forwards or doesn't understand you have to MAKE it go. This may mean more than a tap, and may include a person on the ground with a lunge whip. You also may need to look at your aids and refine these also. Instructor required perhaps.
 
My horse tends to be behind the leg so have done a fair bit of work to try and get him to be more forwards.

This week I did more stretchy work to help his back which tends to be tight due to a few previous issues, and hey presto, having done the stretchy work, he was immediately more forward and much quicker off the leg!

Undoubtedly this isn't the answer for every horse, but worth a try? - the article and video are based around horses with KS but probably v valuable for all horses! - http://horsetalk.co.nz/2015/02/04/help-horse-kissing-spine-goodbye/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnewAkqbZvg
 
What are you doing to ask him to come into an outline? Please don't be offended as I know nothing about your riding.

To put into context, I was an experienced (read old) rider but eventually found a trainer who explained my seat and my hands weren't allowing my horse to go forwards - I was blocking. Other trainers (good, experienced trainers too) had been very much of the 'he's not going forwards, make him" school of thought. I've spent a couple of years working hard to relax my legs and 'let go' of my back and now I have a much more forwards horse.
 
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