How do you find a suitable stallion in a rare breed?

Casey76

Casey76

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I have no real plans as yet - still dreaming... however I did buy my mare with the intention of breeding one foal due to the low numbers of fully papered horses. Last year there were only 62 approved stallions (there are more than that in actual fact, but each breeder has to apply for a license every year if they intend to breed). The number for 2016 isn't yet available.

As there is a limited gene pool, some common ancestors are almost unavoidable.

One of my issues is that it is very difficult to find good conformation photos available online, and the ones which are available are often from the 3yo gradings, so most of the horses haven't' yet attained their full growth and look rather light.

So, do you look for pedigree first, then conformation, or something else? Do you email the owners and ask for photos? Most of the stallions are over 12 hours away by car, so we would need AI, though I would go to visit first.

There is also the height issue. My mare is 141cm (13.3 and a bit!); if breeding my AI, how much taller is "safe" in terms of potential resulting foal size?

IMG_1369.jpg


Tartine is 10 next year, and it would be next year that I would do this, as my youngster can really start going out and competing.
 
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Try Googling "your breed+stallion". You never know, you might get lucky. Also, don't forget Google Images are sometimes easier to search. Breed societies? The problems of inbreeding are often exaggerated. The most important point is that neither side carries genetic faults. I'd rather breed close from genetically perfect stock than out cross to something dubious. But that is just a personal opinion!
 
Pedigree means diddly squat if the conformation is bad. Conformation and temperament must always be the first things considered, if they have a good proven line then thats a bonus. Usually good pedigrees have good horses, but not always. Some do breed on lines rather than the horses.

In terms of AI, the stallion can be quite larger because the mare will dictate the size in the womb, so unless shes grossly overfed the foal should not outgrow the mare. If your mares 13.1 i cant imagine any stallions of the same breed being much bigger though. What breed is she by the way?
 
Hi DR, actually the finding of the stallions isn't the issue. I can get a full list from the Haras Nationaux. I guess my question wasn't really phrased well. Perhaps "matching" a suitable stallion may have been a better word to use.

Using google images can be a bit daunting. Mérens horses are only allowed a small star and no other markings, so even if you search for a particular name, you still get other horses popping up, and at a quick glance, it's fairly easy to mistake one all black horse for another ;)
 
@equi She is a cheval de Mérens. The height issue is quite relevant. My youngster, same breed, but different breeding, is 162cm, as is his sire. Until the late 1990's Mérens were officially a pony breed and had a height limit of 148cm, to try and save the bred, this height restriction was lifted, and they were reclassified as a blood horse breed. Many of the popular stallions are about 155cm.
 
Are the stallions linear scored at their gradings?

When I was looking to breed from my friesian mares we went to the central stallion grading in Holland - a good opportunity to see all the top stallions in the same place and to hear judges comments. I went off which ones I liked the look of, then checked lines to make sure they weren't too closely related and then looked at linear scores to see which were strong where my mares were weak.

Going to the central gradings though was the most useful. We got to talk to lots of breeders, stallion owners, stud owners and individuals and made a reasonably informed choice based on all the information that we had.
 
Madlady, that is a great idea. The gradings are held in August each year at Bouan. However, like I said, the gradings are for 3yos, in which they have to show in conformation and gait, and competencies in dressage, sj, xc and driving to be approved. It's one of the reasons I had my youngster gelded, as I wouldn't start the ridden work early enough for him to gain any kind of competency in any discipline by 3 (given that his birthday isn't until June also!)
 
I think I would generate a short based on what I liked the look of/grading/quality of stock thrown- going to the gradings sounds like an excellent idea.
and then look at breeding coefficients and see how many that leaves.
 
Casey76 said:
Madlady, that is a great idea. The gradings are held in August each year at Bouan. However, like I said, the gradings are for 3yos, in which they have to show in conformation and gait, and competencies in dressage, sj, xc and driving to be approved. It's one of the reasons I had my youngster gelded, as I wouldn't start the ridden work early enough for him to gain any kind of competency in any discipline by 3 (given that his birthday isn't until June also!)
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I understand, that's a lot for a three year old to do.

You might find at the gradings that a few horses by the same sire catch your eye. You could then look him up to see if he suits your needs.
 
Casey76 said:
Hi DR, actually the finding of the stallions isn't the issue. I can get a full list from the Haras Nationaux. I guess my question wasn't really phrased well. Perhaps "matching" a suitable stallion may have been a better word to use.

Using google images can be a bit daunting. Mérens horses are only allowed a small star and no other markings, so even if you search for a particular name, you still get other horses popping up, and at a quick glance, it's fairly easy to mistake one all black horse for another ;)
Click to expand...

If by "small star' you mean Irish Spotting (called Irish because the genetics was first studied in Irish rats!), then (again personally) I wouldn't worry too much about it. The genetics is so complicated it is past understanding! But that again is just me. There are worst things in life than a small star and, if they err, they can be gelded.
 
The NF is on the endangered list now as the number of breeding mares has fallen.

I am keen to preserve old bloodlines and avoid line breeding. I spent (and spend) a considerable amount of time looking through the stallions and discounting ones that I considered over used and with more than a certain number of progeny already on the ground.

Colts are inspected and graded in spring and when I was looking for a potential sire I made sure I went to view. A 2yo caught my eye and I approached the owner.

Cara was born last spring! :)

In your situation I'd be looking at the list of stallions and their progeny. Contact owners of the progeny and then narrow your list. Do the breed society have the stud book on-line?
 
Dry Rot said:
If by "small star' you mean Irish Spotting (called Irish because the genetics was first studied in Irish rats!), then (again personally) I wouldn't worry too much about it. The genetics is so complicated it is past understanding! But that again is just me. There are worst things in life than a small star and, if they err, they can be gelded.
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Yes, it's true. One of the faults that is creeping in to the breed (mostly not full papered) is the odd white coronet or fetlock. My youngster has about 12 white hairs for his star - but he also has a tiny snip - only visible in his winter coat - and a tinier lip mark - again only visible in his winter coat. As he's getting older he is also showing the odd white hair on a hind coronet too - so while his pedigree is excellent, with sought after blood lines, I probably would have had him gelded after grading if I had decided to go down that route.
 
Peregrine Falcon said:
Do the breed society have the stud book on-line?
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If you have an account with the Haras Nationaux, you can get the pedigree of any horse you look up, back to 5 generations. this is my youngster:
Blitz%20pedigree.jpg


you can also get the coefficient of consanguinity, with the common ancestors highlighted
Blits%20coeff%20consanguinity.jpg


so it is fairly straight forward to look at the genetic side of things :)
 
That's very similar to what I spent hours browsing! LOL

I also use allbreedpedigree, although information isn't always correct. I treated myself for a milestone birthday, got given money. There were number of stud books starting with the first edition which I just HAD to buy.


Have fun selecting. :)
 
Casey76 said:
Madlady, that is a great idea. The gradings are held in August each year at Bouan. However, like I said, the gradings are for 3yos, in which they have to show in conformation and gait, and competencies in dressage, sj, xc and driving to be approved. It's one of the reasons I had my youngster gelded, as I wouldn't start the ridden work early enough for him to gain any kind of competency in any discipline by 3 (given that his birthday isn't until June also!)
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Very similar then to what they do with the friesians in Holland but at the friesian gradings the older stallions are also there for 'show' rather than grading as they are already approved.

Even as 3yo the conformation is there as is basic frame and movement (albeit not matured) - if you see a few 3yo that are all a nice stamp and are by the same sire then again it's an indicator that their sire may be the one to use!

The biggest problem that I had when trying to find a husband for Dandea was that all the stallions that I really liked (and that the judges liked) had the same grandsire as her! I eventually found one I liked but then he was on limited breeding until he was approved on offspring so I had to wait a year. The beautiful filly that she produced was worth it though :)
 
Casey76 said:
Madlady, that is a great idea. The gradings are held in August each year at Bouan. However, like I said, the gradings are for 3yos, in which they have to show in conformation and gait, and competencies in dressage, sj, xc and driving to be approved. It's one of the reasons I had my youngster gelded, as I wouldn't start the ridden work early enough for him to gain any kind of competency in any discipline by 3 (given that his birthday isn't until June also!)
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This is my problem with the French system of grading. Too much too young. However, my Shagya stallion who was graded aged 3, was NOT ridden but he had 3 years to fulfil his performance, in his case he did 3 x90km endurance, because it was a piece of cake for him. This was the Shagya grading system though. Now he is SJ and performing well.

You ask about in-breeding. I also have Cleveland Bays and we have a computer programme which showes the relationship between all registered CB's. It is possible to compare all mares against all stallions to see the result of the breeding in terms of kinship. I don't know if other stud books have such a service.
 
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