How do you know if a horse is being naughty or if its in pain?

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Hi all

I have had my Connemara gelding for almost five months now. Since he came to me, I have tried to have everything sorted and changed, because there were a huge amount of issues present:

1) He had been put in a pelham by previous home due to not being able to control him and he was very mouthy as a result, so I placed him in a simple and gentle bit. This helped massively. A visit from the dentist determined he had very sharp teeth and a lot of ulcers which have now been sorted.
2) He seemed stiff when working initially and not as fluent, the physio fixed the tightness in his chest/neck and along his back on her first visit.
3) I had him checked by the vet as he was spooky, we found that he had cataracts forming in one eye.

I still decided to buy him. I'm not rich, our yard's arena is questionable and I don't have my own transport (box), so I was hiring one every week to get him out going places/having lessons. I soon discovered that he was a nightmare to load (something else I wasn't told about). Despite this we were doing really well at shows and lessons etc, and then I hit a brick wall because, well...

The fitter he got, however, the more issues he displayed and he didn't feel as fluent as normal when I rode him, so the physio has been out several times and there is a bit of tightness in his back (saddle is fine), but nothing substantial. He became more stubborn and naughty, trying it on (or at least, that's how it appears).

He is terrified of whips and has a LOT of behavioural issues - plants his feet and won't move, threatens to go up if he doesn't want to walk anymore, or if he is frustrated/tired of waiting to do something. He broncs when going into transistions sometimes. He is anxious around people, for example my friend groomed him today and he kept flinching. I am of the opinion that he has not had the best upbringing (he's 8 and has had several homes in Ireland and UK).

Today I walked him for 15/20 minutes (a few weeks ago I had a fall at a jump, he slammed on out of nowhere and I ended up in hospital for the second time this year because of him) and since then I have only walked as I've lost my nerve. He began to get bored walking and threatened to go up with me; I don't think this is a normal response. My friend got on and he tried to bolt with her. She got off as she did not feel safe and we decided to see how he was on the lunge; he reared full height, bucked and ran away from her (she could not hold onto him). I caught him and he walked, trotted, cantered fine.

I am just so stuck on what to do, I am too scared to ride him myself. He seems to need constant work, which I haven't been able to do for a few weeks due to my accident; he was excercised by my YM during this time and I have lunged him once/ridden him twice before today (walk only).

I have just been told countless of lies since I actually bought him which ends up being twisted and somehow becomes my fault.. I've had the worst year ever with constant vet bills spread over 3 horses (my old horse who was pts in March, my old mare who was nearly pts in June and now my Conne).

Hiring venues every week is so pricey and I don't think its worth it now if I'm scared of him, and if he does have issues as we seem to have gone back to square one.

To be honest, I am scared of opening up a sinkhole of vetbills again, I know its part and parcel of owning horses but it has been EVERY single month this year. My old mare was diagnosed with cushings and tumours and was basically scheduled to be pts. It then transpired that there was actually nothing wrong with her and that cost me almost a grand to find out she was perfectly fine (obviously I'm happy she is but not at the point of wasting money).

He IS insured which is something.

My physio has suggested getting the vets involved to potentially do x-rays etc, but I'm just sort of dreading it. No, I AM dreading it. I've literally had the year from hell and it's affected my mental health massively.

Oh, and I found melanomas on him today, which is what my old horse died of.

I don't know how people ignore issues, I really don't.

My choices basically are treat/investigate his issues OR, assume his responses are due to naughtiness and get a professional in to help me, OR give up and chuck him in a field... I don't know how much more I can take to be honest. This year has been surrounded by death and losing my animals, losing friends and losing myself along the way. :(

I guess I just don't know what to do..

Sorry for the rant but I have no one else to talk to about this :( x
 
You sound like a really caring person and owner and the horse is clearly trying to tell you something.

I think you know really that you need to get a work up done to either rule in or rule out pain.

Could you honestly square it with yourself to send him to a pro for schooling without getting him checked?
 
Wheels said:
You sound like a really caring person and owner and the horse is clearly trying to tell you something.

I think you know really that you need to get a work up done to either rule in or rule out pain.

Could you honestly square it with yourself to send him to a pro for schooling without getting him checked?
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Thank you :(

I honestly couldn't. To be honest, after losing my old boy, I torture myself everytime something appears amiss and sometimes I feel like I'm too tuned in for my own good. My old horse's illness was really rare and tragic, something I blame myself for every day. I google literally everything which isn't really healthy.

Just feel so disheartened, I know horses are horses but I really wasn't expecting all of this. And the older I get the less willing I seem to be to bounce back.
 
If he were mine I'd get a work up done to investigate pain/lameness/other issues, might as well as you are insured. You can decide what to do after that depending on what they find.

I had a lovely horse who lost performance, after a work up we decided to PTS as he had several issues that would be ongoing meaning he would always be uncomfortable...I would never have passed him on, although many do cover up the truth and sell the horse on regardless of any issues - good luck whatever you decide to do.
 
Your own health will not improve by continuing with this pony without getting him checked properly, if he regularly has a tight back requiring physio there is a reason for it and that needs to be found because it is probably the root cause of his behaviour, along with a rough upbringing which will make him more reactive when he is not happy.
The last owners had issues and put him in a pelham for extra control without even getting his mouth looked at and caused him further pain so he is going to be defensive now however hard you try to help him without finding the main issue you will go round in circles and it will do you no good.

To be totally blunt he has only been with you a short time, he may require veterinary treatment after the diagnostics, then possibly a very long rehab and reschooling programme, not forgetting the cataract that may deteriorate, if you feel it beyond you then consider your options, you must take care of yourself and not dwell on what happened to your old horse when considering what to do with this one, we all have regrets, have made errors or mistakes but we must move on knowing we tried our best with what we knew at the time.
 
Sorry, I think I might be being a bit simple....what is it that he is actually doing? Hopping off his front legs when he gets bored and then if corrected he shoots forwards and tries to run off?

And then chucked in a dirty stop at a fence recently - has he done that before?

Apart from riding, is he generally ok to handle, just a bit flinchy to groom?
 
Horses are rarely naughty ... it’s either bad riding or pain... I think the lesson here is don’t buy a horse you know has multiple problems... and a horse that can’t see will usually struggle to jump... and how else can he tell you h3s in agony?
 
As already said you are obviously a caring and thoughtful person. Read Mark Rashid’s book Finding the Missed Path, The Art of Restarting Horses.
From reading you post it sounds like this horse has had a very poor start, not properly educated and pain issues ignored.
First step is investigating and eliminating any pain this horse may still have and then rebuilding his trust in humans.
 
I would have thought the physio should be working with the vet. Also where is the horse fllnching around the girth area? Have you had uclers ruled out. Hope you find the problem x
 
DabDab said:
Sorry, I think I might be being a bit simple....what is it that he is actually doing? Hopping off his front legs when he gets bored and then if corrected he shoots forwards and tries to run off?

And then chucked in a dirty stop at a fence recently - has he done that before?

Apart from riding, is he generally ok to handle, just a bit flinchy to groom?
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I think you are simplifying it and implying the OP is being over dramatic, it sounds far more than "hopping off his front legs" and even if it is not the OP has lost her nerve so needs some support and advice, the pony sounds as if it arrived with several issues, probably should never have been bought but too late to change that and now requires a full work up so it can either be dealt with physically or if not it can be sent off to a pro for some reschooling, whatever the outcome I think the OP is trying to do her best for what seems to be a pony with numerous issues.
 
TBH you don't sound in a resourceful state yourself. If I were you I would turn away for now, as long as he looks OK in himself. If there is something minor then this may resolve it anyway.

When you feel a bit more resourceful then I would take this pony as you find him. IME there is no benefit in trying to decide what did or did not happen to him before. It is about you and him.


As you have identified that your confidence is low, I would send him to a pro to re-start, after a vet check to ensure the pony is able to see, has sound heart and mouth, and is basically sound, including after flexion.


Let the pro do their work, and they may well not come across any problems. If they do, then they can help you make a future plan. This may mean investigations, treatment, schooling, retiring or PTS.
 
be positive said:
I think you are simplifying it and implying the OP is being over dramatic, it sounds far more than "hopping off his front legs" and even if it is not the OP has lost her nerve so needs some support and advice, the pony sounds as if it arrived with several issues, probably should never have been bought but too late to change that and now requires a full work up so it can either be dealt with physically or if not it can be sent off to a pro for some reschooling, whatever the outcome I think the OP is trying to do her best for what seems to be a pony with numerous issues.
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Um, no not implying anything, literally just asking what behaviour the horse is displaying because I couldn't quite get a grasp of it from the OP, and like I said, that could well be because I'm being a bit dim.

Sorry OP, it appears the only correct response on this forum to any behaviour issue is to state 'get the vet' and nothing more. I apologise for asking questions.
 
Often it's both: pain related behaviour scares people so they handle/ride tentatively which leads to learned evasions and eventually a horse who walks all over you - literally sometimes! Either way you are in no fit state mentally or emotionally to deal with him and in my opinion your health & wellbeing is the higher priority at the moment. There is no sign of anything urgently in need of veterinary attention - he's not lame etc. So I'd turn away for now to let him and you have a breather. Then restart with professional help in a few weeks time starting from the very beginning: desensitising him to all your tools, gentling him to touch all over, groundwork, long reining, lungeing, etc until you feel you have a really solid partnership on the ground. Only then would I consider getting back on again. If he has physical issues they should emerge during the phase on the ground. Good luck and take care of yourself.
 
be positive said:
Your own health will not improve by continuing with this pony without getting him checked properly, if he regularly has a tight back requiring physio there is a reason for it and that needs to be found because it is probably the root cause of his behaviour, along with a rough upbringing which will make him more reactive when he is not happy.
The last owners had issues and put him in a pelham for extra control without even getting his mouth looked at and caused him further pain so he is going to be defensive now however hard you try to help him without finding the main issue you will go round in circles and it will do you no good.

To be totally blunt he has only been with you a short time, he may require veterinary treatment after the diagnostics, then possibly a very long rehab and reschooling programme, not forgetting the cataract that may deteriorate, if you feel it beyond you then consider your options, you must take care of yourself and not dwell on what happened to your old horse when considering what to do with this one, we all have regrets, have made errors or mistakes but we must move on knowing we tried our best with what we knew at the time.
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I showed this answer to my Mum and she said your answer was really well written and kind - thank you. :)

DabDab - sometimes, he does hop up with his front legs but he threatens to go higher. When I'm working him, my instructor has suggested transistions to help but he tries to bolt into them and I have never used so much core strength before as I have with him! He's not done dirty stops before at a fence, sometimes he has ran out if I have not been putting enough leg on etc but mainly he has always been straightforward and enjoyed his jumping; he seemed to do better over logs though.. as for handling, he has a few bad habits, for example tacking up everything has to be done slowly and in a routine. Leading, he can plant his feet but sometimes I think he's just being a bit stubborn? I think its a combination of things sometimes.

Blitznbobz - I agree thats the sensible idea but I wasn't happy with how his old owner was treating him and wanted to give him a good home. He is a genuine pony and very sweet. My last horse had cataracts but he was an excellent jumper...that said, I've only followed vets/instructors advice etc as to whether or not I can jump Conne, and I've had the OK.

Ozpoz - thanks for the video, it was really informative and helpful.

Kaylum - he doesn't flinch around the girth, more over his shoulders and where the saddle sits. :

Thank you to everyone who has helped/contributed - I do agree that I'm not in a fit mental state, but I don't think its fair for him to be suffering because of my headspace.

Forgot to mention, Physio had suggested that vets may offer a bute trial to see if that eliminates anything.
xx
 
Well I'd get a second opinion on that saddle fit. Flinching over back when being groomed just isn't right and all the behaviours you indicate from bucking, rearing and stopping at fences cries pain to me. If not saddle then vet to check.
 
Quite often when a saddle fitter says that a particular saddle fits the horse, the horse doesn't agree. If your horse is flinching over his shoulder and where the saddle sits, I really think that the trouble lies with the saddle. In your position, I would turn him away to get over the bruising and any other damage that a n ill-fitting saddle (maybe a previous one) has done and then get a different saddle fitter to give an opinion. I found that a difficult to fit horse went very well in a treeless saddle. Mine is a Solution but there are plenty of others.
 
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