How do you know when its time?

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Ahrena

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I have my retired first horse who has severe navicular. I've had her since I was 12.

Things are going downhill rapidly now. A year ago she was on/off lame in trot on 1 danilon a day, was occasionally well enough to go for a little plod. 5 months ago she took a turn for the worse and needed to be on 2 danilon a day to keep her comfortable.

Now she's always lame in trot and on/off lame in walk. We had the vet out today to do vaccinations and also check her as she's been quite lame in walk since she was shod on the 21st December. Our farrier came back out on xmas eve to check her incase he'd done something wrong or whatever and it was fine. I trust him 100%, he's shod her for 10 years and worked alongside our vets with remedial shoeing, discussing barefoot (which we decided against as she has terrible tb feet at the best of times).

Anyway, the vet was somewhat reluctant to give her her flu jab and said unless we particularly wanted to, it was almost pointless. I think we're talking weeks now..not years and IMO barely months now.

She's better once she comes in at night than when she goes out first thing so movement helps (can't have her out 24/7, she hates it in winter and she orginally started to go lame because of the nav. after she went out 24/7 in summer as she always used to), but still..quite pottery. She is very reluctant to let us pick up 1 of her front feet as bearing all her weight on the other is too uncomfortable.

Vet said she is happy in herself, bright and interested in things, eating well and in good condition so we don't need to do anything NOW and we would know its time. Also when she has more bad days than good...but to me it seems every day is a bad day now, for the last 2 weeks she's come out of her box lame every morning in walk, and I hate seeing her like that. BUT she is still happy in herself.

So how do you know? Its hard as she's my mums horse too, and my mum struggles with the idea of cutting her life short. Whereas I kind of feel..I'd rather do it sooner than later, I personally HATE seeing her lame in walk, as it does mean she is constantly in pain, and I don't want to wait for her to lose her sparkle. But is that unfair? Should I wait until she tells us she's ready? How do you know?

I don't know if I'm just being selfish, maybe that the fact that its invevitable that she'll be pts looming over my head just makes me want to get it over and done so I can grieve or what? I'm worried its going to cause a rift between me and my mum as she'd rather wait as long as possible whereas I'm reluctant to let it get that far if you know what I mean.

In all honesty, if she doesn't improve in the next week - 10 days I'd rather set a date, let her out on our best grazing (which is being saved for summer really) to stuff her face for a week and then let her go whilst she's still happy. But I know my mum wouldn't want to do that...Am I being selfish? I don't really know what to do :(
 
Only you can answer this. You know your Horse better then anyone.

I think if my Horse was going through that, I would let her go, sooner rather then later. I would rather she go when she is still having a few good days then none at all. As I wouldn't want her last couple of weeks alive to be in constant pain.

I'm very sorry you are going through this!
 
There is something in the eyes of the horses and dogs who've certainly reached their time, but I couldn't begin to describe.
I'm a strong believer in "better a month too soon than a day too late"

Very sorry for what you and your mum are going through but it's the most important part of horse ownership and the fact that you are thinking about what's the right thing, and talking to people means you'll make the right decision because you care.
 
Ah bless you, have a hug.

You have answered your own question really - it is time, but most vets will never make that decision for you. It's partly because they don't want to be accused of persuading someone against their wishes, and also because it is not really what they are trained to do - often they find it hard to say enough is enough and one vet I have will keep anything going for years - I was the one to say that's it, it is not in the horse's interest to be kept going.

It doesn't have to be this week or next, but equally I often find it is harder to plan it for a few weeks time. I have been quite lucky in that I knew my daughter's ex show jumper was having more bad days than good (navicular), I had planned it for a few weeks ahead, and then found I was dwelling on it too much so I rang Holts (our local people) and said please could you come now, and they did.

Lots of tears on the day, but a huge relief once I had done it. Hope that doesn't sound too brutal, but you have given her a fab retirement and you are only delaying the inevitable. The tricky part may be persuading your mum it is kinder to let her go before she is in too much pain. Perhaps you should get her to read some of the replies - horses are so good at hiding pain, and if it is now that obvious she is uncomfortable, then it is the kindest thing to do.
 
How are you being selfish? Step back - you're on a forum asking about it, you've said you'd rather take action. That's a caring owner to me!

I must repeat the "better a week too soon than a day too late" motto. Beforehand, thinking of letting them go *too soon* seems cruel, inhumane. When really, you sound like you're at the position of seeing the changes and you're questioning how much longer. Sadly I feel this is a sign that it is 'the time'. Though I can't comment on your mom, I find looking back in time after the horses passing,.you often see it was the right time, hard to admit but it is often easier to cope with once the "deed" has been done.

It is difficult when they are lame but thrilled with life. Can she still have a normal life in the means of rolling, socialising etc? how would you feel if you saw she had lost her sparkle, would you be able to cope with this afterwards? I'd perhaps ask your mom that and try to have a heart to heart.

It sounds like giving her a bit more time and see if there is any improvement might be a good idea. Does the Danilon no longer cover the pain at all or just intermittent?

Feom an outside point of view, I would say coming asking about it being time, means it possibly is. Having difficulties picking feet up etc and your introduction says it to me too. I would consider letting her go to sleep. She has no concept of time like us, she wouldn't know if it's a day too soon. Itoo have a veteran on close watch, he is lame at the trot but still manages to gallop and live a normal life, though I know it's just time with him too. I wish you best of luck
 
IMO, you do know, now. You are correct that is is always better a day too soon than an hour too late. I'm not sure why people prolong the inevitable when it is obvious that an animal is in almost constant pain, even with pain-relief. To me waiting until the sparkle has gone is waiting too long.
I'm sorry that you are having to disagree with your mum about this but IMO you are the responsible horse-owner in the family. I don't know what you can do about though, sorry, as I assume that she will be paying the bills. I can only suggest that you try to talk to her about it without getting too emotional.
 
Thank you.

I just feel personally....we're going to have to let her go sooner or later, thats no question, so I would much rather do it whilst she is still showing an interest in life rather than wait until she isn't.

I think my mum is still hoping she's just having a bad phase and will improve slightly (this has happened quite often in the past) but normally its due to heavy frost and only lasts a coupple of days..not weeks..
 
How old is she? If she is an old lady I guess there is not much point in trying Rockley but they have rehabbed horses who have been close to the end before so it could well be worth giving them a ring. My friend's horse was put down with navicular a few years ago and if I had known about Rockley then I would have suggested sending her, or at least calling them to see if they thought they could help. I know you said she has terrible TB feet but they do take TBs too I think it would be more to do with your horse's age and her exact diagnosis and I suppose you'd have to talk to them really, not some idiot on a forum (me) waffling on with most of the information missing. But probably worth one phone call to let you know you've done everything.
My friend put hers to sleep when she was lying down more, she felt that was the sign as the horse was a flighty Arab who loved to run. She buted her up for one last week together (with the vet's ok), took lots of pictures and videos then the horse went peacefully. But only you can know what's right for you and yours. Hugs xxx
 
LaurenBay said:
Only you can answer this. You know your Horse better then anyone.

I think if my Horse was going through that, I would let her go, sooner rather then later. I would rather she go when she is still having a few good days then none at all. As I wouldn't want her last couple of weeks alive to be in constant pain.

I'm very sorry you are going through this!
Click to expand...

^ This.

I'm lucky that OH and I are of the same opinion - better a day too soon than a day too late.
 
She still seems happy to go out, wanders about happily enough and rolls ect but I havn't seen her having a hoon and a buck for a while tbh. Not sure if its because the field they're in is quite small and pretty muddy or if its her feet.

Unbalanced - I've thought about Rockley. She's 16/17 so not very old but to be honest..Her body has aged quickly. She's got a little bit of arthritus and cushings disease, and she's lived in the same home for 10 years now so I don't really want to move her and risk stressing her at this point in her life. Also, I know they're meant to be fantastic with rehabiliating ect but when she was in work we used to have to be so careful with her feet, she had to have gel pads as if she trod on a stone she'd get a bruised sole and go lame right away, if lost a shoe she would need to be in and poulticed to avoid going lame ect so I just don't really feel its right for her?

Thanks everyone, I guess I need to sit down and have a good chat with my mum. She only wants the best for her too really.
 
Could you get the farrier to speak to your mum? Maybe suggest your mum calls him for an outside, unbiased opinion? Ime farriers are more likely to give an honest opinion than most vets on pts, but I'm guessing your mum will also trust his experienced view.
 
Good idea, thanks.

I'm seeing him later as my other horse has a loose shoe and he's going to take a look at Willow then anyway so will have a chat.

Please don't get me wrong, was quite upset when wrote orginal post, I don't want my mum to come across as a curle uncompassionate person, she's always said she'll pts when it has to happen and fully acknowledges that it will be fairly soon, but she wants to wait until she is truly 'ready' and not really happy anymore, whereas I would much rather do it whilst she's still completly happy so she doesn't have to suffer anymore.
 
Hi there, i have just been in your exact situation, my horse of a lifetime had navic for years and was put to sleep 2 months ago, she was 19.
I struggled so much with making the decision as she was happy in herself, eating etc but very lame and although some days were better than others the bad days were pretty bad, there was nothing that could be done in the end and i tried everything, and i mean everything.
I have never been more devastated than when she was put to sleep i was heartbroken but now 2 months later when i watch videos of her moving i know i did the right thing and dont have regrets, but i do miss her more than i knew was possible.
You will never know its the time without it being some dire emergency but in the end, the situation loomed over my head for months but because I had owned her since a baby she was more than just a horse to me, she was my world and it is beyond cruel that you have to choose to put them to sleep when they seem well in themselves.
You simply dont know what pain they are in day to day when they are lame like that as they are designed to hide pain from predators we just dont know what they are feeling. I made sure my girl had a few days in the field with the sun on her back, stuffed her face with treats and said goodbye.
 
I chose to have my old girl PTS at the end of October because I didn't want her facing another cold, miserable winter. She was eating well and happy enough in herself but she had been mechanically lame in front for a few years and I could see her hind end getting stiffer and stiffer. She found mud increasingly difficult and there was too much of that where I kept her in the winter, couldn't do frozen mud at all but had arthritis so couldn't be kept in. There were other problems as well which meant she was easily bullied and I felt that her good days just weren't good enough any more. She was an old lady whose body was just worn out and I know I did the right thing at the right time. My biggest fear was that she would find herself down (for whatever reason) but in a position she couldn't get back up from and be like that for hours before anyone found her. She deserved better than that. Yes, I made the decision before it was absolutely necessary but I don't regret it.
 
You poor thing - massive hug

Like every says, she'll tell you when she is ready... and when shes too uncomfy to wander between field and stable then she must join her friends of days gone by in the green valley...

Only one thing I might mention... Is there any way she can go into the summer field to see if the nice grass and change of scenery improves her at all without setting the date?

Only a last point with no real relevance - there was an OLD pony up our yard who I thought was going to die any day for about 3 years. Quite boney, thick almost matted coat even in summer, curly hooves, hopelessly lame but pottered about with our herd and was happy enough. I could not believe she wintered out rug-less (until we bought her a rug and also used to share our horses food) and still had this twinkle in her pokey out eyes....

I often thought is was better to put her down esp as her owner had long since cared - but she was happy until one day she really couldnt get up from the field and at that point she sucked on her last carrot with the vet waiting and peacefully past us bye with no drama...

RIP Rosey

Stay strong for you and Mum x
 
TBH, I would have done it a long time ago, as soon as she was constantly lame as her quality of life isn't there in spite of all the love and attention you give her. I'm sorry; I'm with your vet and would get it done ASAP. Surely your mother can appreciate it's not in the mare's best interests to be hanging on?
 
I had exactly this with navicular with my old mare. She pottered along quite happy for quite a while and then one day she pottered in head low looking like she was walking on broken glass. She looked up at me and I just knew by the look in her eyes. She went quietly after the weekend during which she was kept comfortable on increased bute and was spoilt by the whole family. I think you will know when enough is enough and as you have posted asking on this forum I think deep down you already know. Your mum needs to recognise it too and may take her a little longer but hopefully the farrier can assist you in helping her see. Hugs xxx
 
I'd also say the time is now, she is only going to deteriorate and you've got to question who you are keeping her going for, her or her human carers?
I'm sorry to sound so harsh, but it often isn't in the horses interests to prolong things and as you say yourself, why wait until she deteriorates to the point of constant pain/suffering.
I'd turn her out and make the call, if you're thinking it might be the right time it's because it usually is.
 
I've had to stop reading this before the tears spill over my eyelids! I am so very sorry to hear of you, your Mum and your horse going through this.

My two pence for what it is worth; I lost my boy three months ago; completely different circumstances, fortunately for me the decision was already made, he was in the best of health but a freak colic took him (he had never had colic in the 20 years that I owned him).

My point is that much as I would hate to make any such decision, I have comfort when I look back now, that he went out looking and feeling top of the world (I was still riding him). Much as the whole ordeal was agony, I think having a prolonged period of watching his light slowly go out would have been much worse.

Wishing you all the best. x
 
Can you sit down with your mum and have a discussion about where you think the line is? With our last two oldies we were terribly worried about getting the timing wrong but they did tell us and although we were devastated we knew the timing was absolutely right. I just hope the others make it as clear.

I did sit down with the OH though and we made an agreement with each other that if one of us thought the other was being too blinkered or dragging things out we would say.
 
I really do feel for you. Have lost both mine. Not going to go into details but the last one was due to lameness a few months ago. As soon as we found out there was no hope I made the decision with the support of my vet to have him pts two days later. My vet said to prolong the agony for both of us would destroy me. As others have said better a month too early than an hour too late. You have to ask yourself your reasons for keeping the horse alive.

Remember, it is the last kind thing you can do for them, it is a release, no more pain, they will always be with you. Oh ******, can't see for tears now.

Thinking of you.
 
Sorry to hear this - I've "known" about you and Willow and your other horses for a long time through another forum.

You know that your decision will be the right one but it's the concern of upsetting your mum that's troubling you. Have you talked it through honestly and thoroughly?

I let my old boy go when I noticed small but subtle changes and when I realised that every time I'd seen him for the past couple of weeks, something about his behaviour had made me cry. I was also due to go away for nearly a month and I knew I couldn't leave him how he was (not because I didn't trust YO but because it was my responsbility to be with him to the end and I dreaded that something might happen while I was away which meant the decision was taken out of my hands). He had a few days on lots of drugs and looked heartbreakingly well on the day he went.

Thinking of you xxxxxx
 
I think you know the answer to this if 'every day is a bad day'. If she is lame in walk she must be in constant discomfort and as owners we owe it them to PTS when their quality of life has diminished.
It's so hard, I've been there so I know what you are going through.
 
I don't know if this will help when you talk to your mum, but a couple of years ago I went to a talk by a director of one of the big sanctuaries about caring for older horses. He said that for a horse on long term bute they regard 2 a day as the limit before pts - short term crisis they will go over, but once they are on 2 long term it's time to evaluate carefully.
One word of warning though, if you make the decision your horse will immediately start to look better & have what look like good days. If you change your mind they will immediately seem to deteriorate - it's your conscience playing cruel tricks. I know a couple of people who cancelled the Vet & within a couple of days regretted it & re-booked & it made the whole thing a lot worse for them.
 
To be honest I think that asking the question shows that deep down you know the time has come. Huge respect to your vet who didn't just flu jab her for the sake of putting a few extra quid on your bill.
I think you need to keep in mind the often quoted phrase 'Better a week too early than a day too late'. You'll never forgive yourself if you allow things to drag on too long. Far better to let her go while she is still bright in herself.
 
Thank you all for your support.

I've spoken to my mum and i think she's now in agreement. The vet and farrier have agreed to write up letters for the insurance and once that is sorted out I think we will arrange it :(

The farrier checked her feet and said he was as positive as he could be that the lameness was caused by the navicular, he pinched her foot and the only place where she reacted was on the frog, and he said they would only react to pressure there in severe navicular. So yeah...

Mum has also admitted to thinking she has been a bit quiet the last couple of days (she handles her most although I always make sure I give her a cuddle and a fuss) so i think that pretty much sums it up.

Crappy day :(
 
Sometimes the people who are closest to their animals, both physically and mentally are the ones with the narrowest view. The opinion of someone who hasn't seen the animal so regularly is often much nearer the truth. We just don't notice subtle changes on a day to day basis, so I'm certainly not apportioning any blame. Close up my old girl looked ok, watching from a distance I could see how much she was deteriorating. My mum said straight away how much she had aged since last year.
 
Fatpiggy you are so right and sometimes a fresh pair of eyes see what you don't want to, because emotion is involved. I often think, if you are asking is it time, it probably is.
 
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