How do you saddle a bum-high youngster?

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PercyMum

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I'm just curious really...

My young TB is still bum-high at 5 and his saddles keep slipping forward. They are fine when stood still and fit nicely but as soon as we start working they are coming forward and inhibiting his shoulder which is why I think that he isn't as forward as I would like.

I hasten to add my saddles have been fitted by a proffessional and I am not trying to do it myself!! I am now changing saddler as not 100% happy with the fitting of my current saddles.

I was just wondering what a saddler might do to rectify this issue, as clearly if the saddle is made tight enough to not slip forward, it will be too tight full stop, and I guess a front riser will make the saddle too tight also. Or will I get a wider saddle with a riser.

Just wondering really !! :)
 
Come on chaps. somebody must have some thoughts as to what the solution might be! I am really hoping the solution isnt a new saddle :eek:
 
I would have thought a wider saddle with a riser might be the way... I would ask the saddler what they think. I am surprised it was not something that was noticed when it was fitted? Or has it just been since then?
 
Well for me it would be with a flexible heather moffett vogue/fhoenix saddle. I wouldnt be putting anything rigid on a youngster anyway, they change shape far too much. If its slipping forwards it is unlikely its level to my mind, you can get a crupper strap but Im not convinced this saddle fits from the sound of it :(

Also if I was the saddler Id be looking at the rider to see if they are encouraging the movement.
 
Minstrel_Ted said:
I would have thought a wider saddle with a riser might be the way... I would ask the saddler what they think. I am surprised it was not something that was noticed when it was fitted? Or has it just been since then?
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The saddler di think it was tipping me forward a teeny bit when it was fitted and suggested putting a wither pad in, but he has since muscled up but the saddle is still going forward.

TigerTail said:
Well for me it would be with a flexible heather moffett vogue/fhoenix saddle. I wouldnt be putting anything rigid on a youngster anyway, they change shape far too much. If its slipping forwards it is unlikely its level to my mind, you can get a crupper strap but Im not convinced this saddle fits from the sound of it :(

Also if I was the saddler Id be looking at the rider to see if they are encouraging the movement.
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No, I don't think it fits either, hence change of saddler. I just don't get how they would sort the issue out. The saddle moves forward and impinges his shioulder - both his jump and dressage. I probably am encouraging the movement - saddle slips forward so I tip forward!!!
 
Yup treeless www.solution-saddles.co.uk

I do all my backing in them and they are fantastic for growing and changing shape horses - well, all horses really :) No rigid parts to interfere with the shoulders and because you can balance them without causing pressure anywhere there is less chance of them slipping forwards anyway.
 
PercyMum said:
Come on chaps. somebody must have some thoughts as to what the solution might be! I am really hoping the solution isnt a new saddle :eek:
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TBH, if he's bum high and still growing he should be left alone to mature naturally. To do otherwise is going to place strain on his skeleton, muscles and ligaments and is a veterinary case waiting to happen. He might be five but he's still growing, you really need to stop until he finishes if his growth spurts mean he is either up or down at front or back; it's not so bad when they grow levelly as you don't upset their balance so much.
 
I backed my very bum high exmoor as she just wasn't catching up in front so figured I should just get on with it. I found using a grippy pad stopped it moving forward. I used a pad similar to the limpet pad as her saddle used to majourly move forward as she had no withers as well as a bum 2 inches higher.
 
Forgot to say, I did start backing in a treeless (torsion) and it was so dangerous as it slipped forward loads (even with grippy numnah) but also to the side and meant I fell off several times simply because it slipped.
 
I'm with Maesfen on this.
If he is bum high and still growing, I'd personally turn him away to mature rather than keep working and create future health issues for him.
The growth plates in a horses spine are the last to close......from 5 years onwards. Is it worth risking his long term future health (we are talking potential degenerative joint damage to his spine here) for the sake of not riding him until he is level ? :) (Smile added to show I am not being judgemental but am genuinely concerned and trying to help :)).
 
Bee's bum high (5yo TB, built like that mostly, but as she muscles up it's becoming less noticeable) and she's in an Albion Legend 5000 XC saddle. Fits her well and doesn;t come forwards...
 
LittleWildOne said:
I'm with Maesfen on this.
If he is bum high and still growing, I'd personally turn him away to mature rather than keep working and create future health issues for him.
The growth plates in a horses spine are the last to close......from 5 years onwards. Is it worth risking his long term future health (we are talking potential degenerative joint damage to his spine here) for the sake of not riding him until he is level ? :) (Smile added to show I am not being judgemental but am genuinely concerned and trying to help :)).
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No, no, thats fine. I value any opinions :o. He is an ex-racer so I thought I was fine to just carry on riding him. I don't want to cause him any probs obviously! I have only had him 2 months and he is on 3 month LWVTB so turning away isn't ideal tbh at this stage. Maybe i should think about it. Will try and upload piccie to show how he looks.
 
PercyMum said:
No, no, thats fine. I value any opinions :o. He is an ex-racer so I thought I was fine to just carry on riding him. I don't want to cause him any probs obviously! I have only had him 2 months and he is on 3 month LWVTB so turning away isn't ideal tbh at this stage. Maybe i should think about it. Will try and upload piccie to show how he looks.
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Surely after two months already you know by now whether you want to buy him or not? If the answer is no then send him back now, if the answer is yes then you can give him all the time in the world he needs.
 
2 different saddlers seeing a similar chap at our yard have said to never, ever use a treeless saddle on a youngster. Can't remember why now, though. :confused:

There is one horse (cobby type) on the yard who uses a treeless - coincidentally (perhaps!?) the only horse with back trouble!
 
I had issues with this too, although mine wasnt a youngster it was just him! ;)

I bought a suber pad as he fluctuates so much from season to season and to also help him build up his back muscles instead of the saddle restricting the build up at either side of his withers, but it also solved the saddle slippage problem :D

Might not work for you but i can hack my boy up and down steep hills and even then the saddle doesnt budge, no idea why, it just seems to work.

http://www.davidahnequine.co.uk/
 
PercyMum said:
No, no, thats fine. I value any opinions :o. He is an ex-racer so I thought I was fine to just carry on riding him. I don't want to cause him any probs obviously! I have only had him 2 months and he is on 3 month LWVTB so turning away isn't ideal tbh at this stage. Maybe i should think about it. Will try and upload piccie to show how he looks.
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Do you feel after having him for 2 months that he is a horse you would like to own ? Ask yourself, "If he goes back tomorrow, will I be upset about it ?"
If your answer is "Yes, it would upset me. I want to keep this horse." Then there is nothing to stop you from not riding him at the moment. You could still do groundwork with him.....long reining, work in hand from the bridle, desensitising to anything that spooks him, leading over poles on the ground or even an obstacle course set up in the school (e.g. between fillers, over tarpaulins, etc), take him out for walks in hand, anything BUT ride him at the moment. This would benefit both of you as it will help to form a bond and trust between each other without puting any weight on his back while he is unlevel (bum high).
I have a 3 year old pony. I had thought about lightly backing her this autumn, BUT, she keeps having growth spurts and is bum high again now. IF, and only if, she was the same height at her withers AND croup, I wouldn't think twice about lightly backing then turning her away. I have a photo of her standing at the trailer at a show I took her to on 8th September. I noticed just HOW much higher she was at the back end from looking at this photo. I edited lines on to the photo to compare the height difference. I had one line along the ground in line with her feet, one in line with her fetlock joints, another line level with her croup at the highest point and one level with the highest point of her withers. I put a vertical line from the line on the ground up through the centre of the highest point of her withers, and another at her croup. Then, I put a diagonal line from the top of her croup to the top of her withers. The angle is quite a significant one.
In another photo, with her walking beside me, I edited lines on again to compare her height with mine. Using my own measurements at the points where the lines from her withers and croup crossed my body (yes, I stood in the kitchen with a measuring tape, spirit level and marked the "heights" on the doorframe !). I worked out with these measurements that my pony is 140cm at her withers and 148cm at the top of her croup. That's a difference of 8cm or 3 inches in height from withers to croup. The angle on an 8 x 6 inch photo was 4 degrees. I'm no good with maths or physics, but know enough to understand the concept of additional weight at that angle isn't a good one for my pony.
For the horse, this means that while there is such a significant height difference, more of HER weight will be on her front end right now. (She was a bit "flat" when trotting out in the showring). This will make it a bit more difficult for her to work from behind and be light on her forehand at the moment. Now, add the weight of tack and a rider to an already downhill horse/pony, and you can imagine the extra stress this would put on not only the front legs, but all of the supporting structures in the horse's muscloskeletal system. :)
 
stroppymare153 said:
2 different saddlers seeing a similar chap at our yard have said to never, ever use a treeless saddle on a youngster. Can't remember why now, though. :confused:

There is one horse (cobby type) on the yard who uses a treeless - coincidentally (perhaps!?) the only horse with back trouble!
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Well there's treeless and there's treeless ... and there is only one make of treeless that I would ever use on any horse.

In my experience (which is quite wide on this subject :)) the horses which have been backed, produced and ridden on in Solution saddles have superb backs, unlike the many horses I see which have been ridden in treed saddles. However any horse, whatever the saddle, will have some back issues simply by virtue of being sat on by a human being, having a fall, slipping, limb and foot issues etc etc - none of which may necessarily relate to whether the saddle has a tree or not :)

Whilst I would certainly give a youngster time to level out a bit if it was exceedingly bum high, if we never rode youngsters whilst they were developing we wouldn't presumably back them till they were at least 6!
 
Maesfen said:
TBH, if he's bum high and still growing he should be left alone to mature naturally. To do otherwise is going to place strain on his skeleton, muscles and ligaments and is a veterinary case waiting to happen. He might be five but he's still growing, you really need to stop until he finishes if his growth spurts mean he is either up or down at front or back; it's not so bad when they grow levelly as you don't upset their balance so much.
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^ ^ ^ ^

Just what I was going to say!
 
2 different saddlers seeing a similar chap at our yard have said to never, ever use a treeless saddle on a youngster. Can't remember why now, though.

There is one horse (cobby type) on the yard who uses a treeless - coincidentally (perhaps!?) the only horse with back trouble!
Click to expand...

Would love to hear the reasoning behind that - my sceptical side wants to say its because it would take business away from them.... I cant see the reasoning behind putting a fixed rigid object on something designed to flex and hollow - especially a youngster who will change shape a lot!

Rowreach said:
Well there's treeless and there's treeless ... and there is only one make of treeless that I would ever use on any horse.
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Exactly! A lot of people think because its treeless quality doesnt matter - they couldnt be more wrong. Pliance testing showed riding bareback to be the worst for pressure points, second came the cheap and nasty treeless saddles as these are basically shaped pads with stirrup bars, so all the weight hits the stirrup bars and isnt dispersed over a wider area.

Id happily use a Solution, but preferred the HM Vogue to ride in when I was originally trying saddles for my youngsters.

OP does the horse have atrophied withers? Now you've said he's an ex race horse its beginning to make more sense! Pics of his back side on and you standing on a bucket behind him with his head straight would be useful!
 
Rowreach said:
Well there's treeless and there's treeless ... and there is only one make of treeless that I would ever use on any horse.

In my experience (which is quite wide on this subject :)) the horses which have been backed, produced and ridden on in Solution saddles have superb backs, unlike the many horses I see which have been ridden in treed saddles. However any horse, whatever the saddle, will have some back issues simply by virtue of being sat on by a human being, having a fall, slipping, limb and foot issues etc etc - none of which may necessarily relate to whether the saddle has a tree or not :)

Whilst I would certainly give a youngster time to level out a bit if it was exceedingly bum high, if we never rode youngsters whilst they were developing we wouldn't presumably back them till they were at least 6!
Click to expand...

Agree with this.
There are a couple of treeless makes which are excellent and well thought through in their design - the rest are best avoided imo.
I use the same as Rowreach and daughter's old boy was backed in the original version of Solution saddles and ridden all his life in one.
He is 16 now (can't believe it - where did that time go!) and his back and paces are still beautiful.
I'm no expert, but I would worry about the 'mechanics' of a crupper. What is actually going on if you use the underside of the tail/ spine for weight bearing?
 
hey my tb is bum high by 1-2 inches and hes rising 8.... my saddle doesnt slip forward although the back is sligjtly higher than it shouod be so i use a half pad fitted by saddler which helps and have the girth as tight as u can but nt so ur hurting ur horse and the saddle shouldnt move....and before anyone says i shouldnt be riding him as hes unlevel im fine to do so amd wont affect him as hes matured well muscled and thats just the way hes built xxx
 
I have a 15 year old horse who is a bit croup high, I use a HM Vogue saddle on him with a Shires Jelly/Gel pad - BINGO - saddle stays glued in the same place. With the Soft Tree Saddles, there is no worry about the shoulders getting pinched or hit as it would with a treed saddle
 
I'm still waiting for my horse to level out, she's 14 and nearly 3 inches higher at the croup than at her (non-existant, totally round) withers. I've tried every type of saddle and pad, and a crupper, over the years, everything slipped forwards and/or rolled. So finally had a saddle made for her on a handmade tree with flexible points, it's wonderful and she's a happy bunny now.
 
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