How does a horse become "strong"?

only_me

only_me

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I have always wondered this!

Sorry for such a numpty question, but what makes a horse strong?

I am guessing and generalising that all horses are started off in a snaffle - therefore, how to they get to a point where they need a stronger bit?

Sounds very silly, but has always been a wonder of mine; all my horses have gone in snaffles (one in a mguinness) but what makes them strong?

Sorry if no one understands, and sort of related to competition as how do you make the decision to move up from a snaffle?

Another little question, sorry - what is the difference between a horse taking you to a fence and one that is strong?

I have never ridden one that is very strong, usually just needed a different technique of riding at fences!

gosh, just re-read that and I sound very stupid :o aplogies! I swear I am of normal intelligence!
 
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Great question.

I think that the horses I've ridden have been much like the horses you have ridden, so I can't volunteer a good answer, however (other than pondering that perhaps it's often more about the rider than the horse?)

That being said, one of my horses gets very strong hunting. To the point where he's a liability to take out so I just tend not to do it any more. Total fingertip control at other times/ great XC/ shows, etc, but the adrenaline involved out hunting with all those other horses just blows his mind. So, yes, at that point he becomes strong. However, as one of the seasoned huntsmasters mentioned to me, it's not about what metal was in his mouth, it was about what was going on in my horse's head. Maybe I could have worked him through it with enough time/ taking him out lots, etc, but I wanted him more for eventing than for hunting, so I figured better to keep him sound for what I want him to do.
 
Becoming excited - eg out hunting, the herd instinct takes over and they want to keep up with the rest of the herd.

Un-educated mouth - poor schooling or lack of.

Bad riding - rough unsteady hands.

Pain - teeth problems, bone spurs on the bars of the mouth, bit too large/small.

Inexperienced rider or rider over horsed.

Practise - allowed to race around

PAin in neck, poll or back.

Tension
 
So what about all the horses competing at a high level with professional riders and huge bits and various gadgets in their mouths?
 
Try riding my pointer- then you will understand 'strong'!
He is lovely in walk and trot, fine on the roads etc, get him in a field and he is very strong.
I think he has been schooled/ well broken when he was younger so goes in a nice outline in the school, different matter on the gallops.
He is a racehorse though.
My other horse is not strong at all, though if doing gallop work for the first time in ages he takes a 'hold', but not after a while.
p.s my pointer has had it teeth done, back done etc and is not in pain and his previous trainers said he was really strong, he just like that. He is currently galloped/hunted in a dutch gag, middle ring. Please shoot me!
 
With some horses, they are strong simply because of their size and that they have been allowed to lean on the hands. Many native breeds are built "downhill" so it is very easy for them to go onto the forehand and lean. They get out of work as the rider supports them so they continue to do it. When my Welshie wants to go, he puts his head right down and pulls me out of the saddle, even though I have never let him lean on me. It doesn't help that he has a neck the size of a whale!
 
Evelyn said:
Becoming excited - eg out hunting, the herd instinct takes over and they want to keep up with the rest of the herd.

Un-educated mouth - poor schooling or lack of.

Bad riding - rough unsteady hands.

Pain - teeth problems, bone spurs on the bars of the mouth, bit too large/small.

Inexperienced rider or rider over horsed.

Practise - allowed to race around

PAin in neck, poll or back.

Tension
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As Kelpie says, great question. Think I'm with Evelyn on this one; and would add to her comprehensive list, rider more dependent on hands rather than legs and seat.
 
Very interesting question.

It's one of those nature vs nurture things.

I believe some horses are just strong, always have done and always will be and the same for some horses that are snaffle mouthed always will be.

But with the eventer/hunters, song started off in a snaffle but the more he did the stronger he got, this was probably done to my lack of experience to start with but he is from a family of strong horses so maybe he was always going to be strong?

Buster on the other hand is a total snaffle mouth for everything including when fully race fit
 
I agree with you millbrooksong - I think some horses just are strong - we have a TB who events and it is definitely his adrenaline and his eagerness to get on with the job that makes him strong. You could hack him out in a snaffle but take hime to an event and it's a different matter entirely. When he has finished xc it takes him about 20 minutes to 'come down'
 
My horse was described as being 'strong'. He's nice and soft doing flatwork in a snaffle, but it would be flippin dangerous to take him xc in it! SJ we have a single joint 3 ring on 2nd hold down, as otherwise we don't have any brakes and I can't get him up and together. XC it has to be a waterford three ring on bottom hole or I go flat out into everything and create a health hazard!! I'd rather use a stronger bit and have proper control when it's needed (eg xc) than saw at his mouth. :) xxxx
 
My horse is strong when she gets excited, shes a tb polo pony, so hot blooded & gallops very fast! You can do anything in a snaffle as long as its quite, hunting - pleham with two reins, only bit she understands means stop when i ask her too.
 
whilst i agree that sometimes its down to poor schooling or whatever i don't think that that is always the case. for a lot of competition horses (thinking eventers and sjers here) - especially at the top levels- you need very precise controls- it could be that in a snaffle you might need to take two or three pulls (if the horse's adrenalin is 'up' they might not be fully listening) wheras one pull in a stronger bit would actually be better? (and safer?)

my 5 year old generally has a lovely soft mouth- however, i have now decided that he needs a stronger bit for XC. i can stop him XC but it requires a fair bit of hauling and i'd rather take one small pull... genuinely with him its keenness and adrenalin making him do this because the rest of the time he's not 'strong' at all...
 
For a supposed "numpty" question ,this is actualy hellishly difficult to answer. But FWIW I do have some theories. You need to start at the beginning ,with the young horse,. For him to round and carry himself is enormously hard work. The lack of toned neck and abdominal muscles.He will ,in order to ease the pain ,try to lean on the bit and poke his nose.If he is pushed too hard this becomes habit and a self defeating loop.The more he tries to ease himself,the less he uses the correct muscles.The rider looses the sensetive feeling through the reins and is working against a locked neck and jaw. Tired horses become hyperactive and coupled with poor head carriage they start to become strong. Add to this ,the fact that they are creatures of habit,it can also then become a learned thing. This is just my personal opinion ,but I do believe this is where it all starts.
 
diggerbez said:
whilst i agree that sometimes its down to poor schooling or whatever i don't think that that is always the case. for a lot of competition horses (thinking eventers and sjers here) - especially at the top levels- you need very precise controls- it could be that in a snaffle you might need to take two or three pulls (if the horse's adrenalin is 'up' they might not be fully listening) wheras one pull in a stronger bit would actually be better? (and safer?)

my 5 year old generally has a lovely soft mouth- however, i have now decided that he needs a stronger bit for XC. i can stop him XC but it requires a fair bit of hauling and i'd rather take one small pull... genuinely with him its keenness and adrenalin making him do this because the rest of the time he's not 'strong' at all...
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I totally agree with this. My own WB is fine on the flat and hacking. However he LOVES poles and jumping so gets excited I know some of it is my physical weakness (I have rhuematoid arthritis) But I cannot easily pull him up or half halt etc when his adrenalin is up, so I have just started riding him in a tom thumb with rollers and he is much better

I used a stronger bit with my old horse and once he understood what I wasn't strong enough to show him in a snaffle, he then came back to a snaffle and understood what I wanted.
 
TBH I think a lot of horses are strong just because they get really excited and want to do things (quicker!), can’t really expect them all to listen to our aids exactly doing everything and not have their own ideas about what should be going on… they are animals at the end of the day with their own minds. With some horses, say the ones that aren’t that bad, I reckon that good schooling just to teach them to be very obedient could help a lot as would not letting them race around – put myself and my horse into this category (i.e. he is quite strong but because I let him get away with it from young age). Others I think would just be strong whatever you did just because that’s how they are and they are very keen to do the job – I think this is the category the 4* horses you see looking strong fall into. Think it’s a bit foolish to say that those horses are strong because they have been ridden badly/badly schooled/in pain etc.. more likely that they just have to be a bit daft to consider going round a 4* course in the first place! Do also think some horses are strong if they are in a bit of a panic be it through pain/being over faced etc. So a few different types of strong really!!

That makes sense to me anyway!! With your question about what’s the difference between taking you into a fence and being strong.. will try to explain my thoughts.. Badger is quite normal most of the time and although he was wanting to go forward and accelerate into the fence, I am still able to steady him on approach to the fence and adjust his stride until I say go.. sometimes he’s a bit of an idiot, mainly XC, and he literally just wants to gallop as fast as he can, he’s not bolting because I can, just about, slow him before a fence but it’s really hard work, and then he’s wanting to be off again at the other side. He seems to have stopped doing it now.. yay!
 
Think anyone interested in this subject may find Mark Smith's riding methods interesting - he rides and competes in only a headcollar with reins, and no bit. He worked with a friend's tb several years ago, who pulled like a train. He had her galloping around a track eventually in just a headcollar (well, and a saddle!). He was so quiet and such a good teacher. I believe he's also known as a horse whisperer these days; but it's the bitless riding that I thought was so great.
 
With the drivers we find that they get stronger as they get fitter and ready to race - we actually look for it as a sign they're ready to run. BUT they all stop when asked vocally (Pad's been known to fire his driver out of the seat from stopping too quickly 30mph - 0mph in 3 strides - just on saying woah! :eek::p), it's more that they start getting competitive with each other and strive to be first and get their head in front. When they're unfit or just out for a jog they happily bimble along but as we start to do fast work they start to take hold more.
We're finding the same with the pointers we've got in for the winter, both started working out in snaffles now both in snaffle + dexter for extra help to control the speed on the gallop although they both pull up when asked if you sit up and relax the reins - even if the stopping distance is slightly longer now.
 
I think many horses considered strong aren't actually strong......

There are many different types of strongness and reasons for being strong.

Thinking solely about the horses I ride, I can think of one who is genuinely strong. She is a big heavy hunter type, built a bit on the forehand, and fairly opinionated. She can go nicely but her standard way of getting out of work is to become strong. When she choses to drop on the forehand and lean, or open her mouth and run through the hand, or just totally ignore you there isn't a lot you can do. Pop a pelham in and she realises that her usual evasions aren't going to work and goes very nicely. Under normal circumstances, you can ride her nicely in a snaffle, but you have to be pretty harsh at times to get a response. Personally I would prefer to be able to ride her in a stronger bit and just use a squeeze on the reins than use a snaffle and have to use a tug. SJ outdoors in a snaffle I do sometimes feel like anyone watching would think I'm an awful rider..... xc in the snaffle just gets scary, because she will just do her own thing. Luckily she is a talented and scopy jumper and can get herself out of trouble, but that also means that rather than back herself off and listen she will just go on a flyer which can be pretty alarming when she is taking whole strides out! It doesn't help that probably 75% of riders let her get away with ploughing along on her head so these problems become more entrenched.

Another mare I ride, also a chunky irish type, is considered by many to be strong, but it is just about riding her properly, a stronger bit would get you no where. If you try to check her with your hands she will come up against the bit and run through the hand and no amount of pulling will stop her. On the otherhand if you drop the reins, sit up and use your seat she will come back to you very reliably.

Others aren't remotely strong but they rush and people confuse quick with strong.

Some have a particular evasion and tackling that (with a grackle or martingale or whatever) solves the feeling of strongness.

Others lack education and generally don't understand what you are asking, especially asking an unbalanced horse to slow down.

Then there are the ones that are just plain exciteable and forget themselves when their blood is up.

They all need a different approach to the feeling of strongness, and some are caused by their riders/their schooling whereas others are just the way the horse is.

Personally I think a horse being "strong" is about the feeling the rider gets not the actual strength of the horse. Some very big strong horses can be very light and never feel strong despite them being quite capable of overpowering their rider. Other considerably less strong horses may give their rider a real feeling of being strong, like tiny ponies who become effective at setting their neck and/or jaw against their rider.
 
I would definatly describe Trig as strong. Sets his neck and jaw on a hack and you've had it. Slightly better in a waterford snaffle.

Henry was totally opposite, never strong at all, except xc, not half as strong as trig though! Put in a NS universal, had my nice horse back again!
 
I don’t think it’s a racing thing, my ex-racer has a mouth like butter, he takes a contact in company usually if he’s behind but I can still half halt his canter, if he’s in front or alone we can canter on a pretty loose rein. Took him out with a friend a few months ago and I asked to canter in front as he’d had a few days off, both started off and she shouted that she couldn’t hold her horse, so I slowed to trot, let them overtake at a gallop and resumed cantering at a steady pace! Not bad for a six year old IMO! I am very disciplined about cantering in fields as my old pony was super strong, so I always vary where we canter and never in the same place twice I also make sure that we vary walking and trotting in the spots where we canter so he doesn’t assume walking is slow and trotting is the precursor to a canter.

IMO I associate strong with cobs and less of a mouth thing more a case of using the shoulder against you and running on on the forehand.

There are times where we take a good contact but he doesn’t pull if that makes sense?
 
mle22 said:
So what about all the horses competing at a high level with professional riders and huge bits and various gadgets in their mouths?
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I've always wondered why this is. Its so rare to see any show jumpers or eventers competing in a simple snaffle nowadays which I think is sad. I try to keep all mine in as basic tack as possible - I event and SJ my horse in a dressage-legal Myler snaffle, with a plain cavesson noseband and no martingale. He never gets too strong, I think if a horse is well schooled enough and is started correctly it shouldn't need anything more.
 
only_me you know my OH - he would say that mostly horses aren't strong, riders are...

He takes most of the horses sent to him back to an eggbutt snaffle (and last season headed off around a CIC** track in a straight bar soft flexible rubber snaffle on a horse which came to him being ridden in a gag xc) - though there are exceptions to the rule, and when safety is considered (around a big xc track) he has been known to bit up too. The Olympic horse he had he described as almost a runaway xc and he had to have a pelham or he simply couldn't get him back and at 3* / 4* you can't just leave them to sort themselves out every time!
Nearly every horse sent to him as strong he rides it and makes it look like a pussy cat, he doesn't pull them and makes them balance for themselves and talks away to them so they don't rush and hey presto quiet horse no longer requiring 5th leg of riders hands...
Unfortunately, many people who come to ride his horses DO find them strong as they don't ride them the same way...
 
Two of my homebreds that have always gone in cavessons and snaffles and never pulled in their life both got "strong" when taken hunting for the first time this season (12 and 10 years old)

One reverted back to snaffle quickly (albeit still with the odd rear!) and the other is in a kimblewick, as he still gets quite excited running in a herd.

With correct training and never (ever!) leaving a school, I don't think its possible to have a strong horse. However they do love to run when let out!
 
I'd add tension and fear to the list of "causes" but, as many have said, it's impossible to say why - or even how - a horse gets strong in the hand. It's not even always a sign the horse wants to go faster! Some conformations definitely lend themselves to a "locked" neck and some horses are just harder to talk to generally. I will say I've never sat on a (mentally and physically healthy) newly backed horse that's tough in the hand and in discussion with people who have broken many more horses than I have, literally thousands, they concur. But horses do get excited and affected by adrenalin. Some horses would NEVER take hold, for others it's the first response. (I'm a bit less inclined to think many horses will do it randomly to get out of other work - it's quite hard work and uncomfortable to pull and implies that working properly is more uncomfortable for them.) It can be just a "thing", like bucking or rearing or any other behaviour, that a horse does to release/react to tension in a stressful situation.

So it's "life" that makes some horses strong. It doesn't mean it has to stay that way, although horses are very "situational learners" so it can be a trick, once they're trained - intentionally or otherwise - to go a certain way in a certain situation, to make a consistent, lasting change. (Although I'd say it's always worth it - anytime a horse is putting more pressure on any part of itself than is necessary it's increasing the potential for damage and, if it overwhelms the rider, compromising safety.)

The "big bits" you see on so many upper level horses now are at least partially a reflection of the margin for error and what's at stake. If a horse runs through the bridle even for a stride and has a rail, that can make the difference between a win and nowhere. Also, many of those horses school at home in less bit and would be reasonably ridable over less complicated tracks or in less high pressure situations. GP and 4* horses, almost by definition have to be a bit mad ;), so expecting them all, in the heat of the moment, to stay completely soft and attentive isn't really reasonable.

The one problem with increasing bits, particularly if leverage comes into play, is that you're making the horse inherently stronger. Leverage works by increasing force so the horse is pulling against more resistance . . .which is a time honoured work out technique. Worst case, if exploited, it can also teach the horse not to listen to a milder aid and even cause damage that makes it impossible for the horse to return to the previous level of lightness. Which isn't to say stronger bits don't have their place, just that they aren't without cost and it makes sense to weigh all the factors.
 
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One of the things I have found is I can pootle round intro and PN in a snaffle but then need to move up depending on the horse at novice because you need more speed and to kick on a bit and the horses get braver and adrenaline kicks in a bit more.

Interestingly our 20 year old hunter is getting stronger and stronger as he gets older. I personally blame my mother as I hunted him a couple of times and was really strict with him about what he was allowed to do and he got some big socks in the mouth every time he tried to piss off with me and he did actually become a lot more polite. My mother is not as disciplined and lets him get away with murder. I am also taller and I think I use my body weight far more than she does. I cannot stand hauling away at horses mouths and always try and hunt and do xc on a loose rein so they do not learn to pull.
 
My mare is only strong when she in underbitted.

When schooling & general work she is great in a straight bar rubber snaffle. If you jump her in a snaffle she tows you into fences & switches off, she also sets her neck & being down hill, you're on a hiding to nothing.

In a stronger bit, she is more respectful & isn't strong at all.

I think her enthusiasm is in part because I wasn't disciplined enough when she was young & allowed her to charge at fences.
Some of the charging was due to anxiety some to her nature which is to take over & be alpha mare (but the upside is that she often makes good decisions and gets us out of trouble).
Some of the reason she is strong is because she is naturally downhill & doesn't every really sit & engage.
Some of the reason she is strong is because she is genetically programmed to be that way, her sire produced a few nice looking but bullish and opinionated horses.
In part she is strong because I have a hot seat and most animals I ride are keen to a fence - I must prefer them that way, but I've never made one which is a stopper - so that's some consolation.
 
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