How far do you go?

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Holding

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Wondering if anyone has any opinions or advice as we are really struggling to make a decision.

Our 8 year old whippet has a tumour just under his ear - it has been removed once and come back and is now aggressive and late stage. Because of the positioning removing it would involve radical surgery and then a treatment of radiotherapy and chemotherapy to try to hinder regrowth. Alternatively it could be debulked and then he could have a course of lower dose chemotherapy which would hopefully slow things down and might give him a few more months to a year.

On top of that he has been diagnosed with a heart condition - he hasn't seen a cardiologist yet but he has a high grade murmur and they suspect it is a serious valve problem, so any surgery is very risky.

The vet thinks that left alone the tumour will likely ulcerate within the next few weeks and after that it won't be fair to keep him going, so if we are going to opt for treatment it needs to be asap.

So. Really not sure what to do and thought I would ask if anyone has had any similar experiences. He is still well and happy in himself, eating well and going for walks, although rapidly losing weight. It seems wrong to just put him down without trying anything, but equally if radio/chemotherapy is as bad as it is for people, I don't know if I would want him to go through it. Has anyone had any experience of treating a dog for cancer? At Newmarket they seemed to be more concerned about his heart and suggested seeing a cardiologist before anything else, so that's a consideration too. He is insured but everything is preexisting so won't be covered - it's horrible to have to think about but a full operation, heart treatment, ongoing drugs etc. could easily come to 10k and might only buy him a few months.

Any advice would be much appreciated at this point.
 
Hard as it is to even think about, if he was my dog, I would call it a day. The treatment for cancer for either human or animal is not nice, and you can't explain to a dog why he feels so bad. With the heart issue as well, I think you are only prolonging the inevitable. My main (only) concern for my animals is their quality of life. Length of life is irrelevant if it is not a good one. I would suggest that weight loss can either be a symptom of stress or pain - has your vet suggested why he is losing weight so quickly?

It's a horrible situation to be in - you have my sympathy
 
It all comes down to quality of life.
Will his quality of life over the next few weeks make it worth it for him to treat these issues.
Does he stress at the vets? Workup of a heart condition and a possible debulking surgery with radiation/chemo will involve a large amount of hospitalisation,frequent vet visits and blood taking...will be cope well with that or will he stress? Can he be medicated easily? Or will he want to hide from you as you try to get him to take medications? If hes a stresshead then it shouldnt really be an option .It wouldnt be fair on him to spend so many of his last days distressed in the hope of short term gains tiding off the inevitable...

Personally I would not pursue further treatment beyond palliative care with a dog with an aggressive recurrant tumour whos losing weight and has a heart murmur.....I would be trying to keep him as happy and as painfree as possible...and I would also try and let him go a day to early,rather then a day to late.
Dogs live in the moment.They dont hope and dream from the future. Sometimes the kindest thing we can do is let them go before they are suffering. His daily quality of life will decide everything.

But I've also never had a dog who could cope with the rigours involved in this sort of workup surgery and chemo etc so I am bias....I have seen the ones who weren't coping with it and its bothered me...most coped very well! but the ones who hated it made me very aware of the QOL issues.

Im sorry if my reply isnt what you were hoping to hear.My heart goes out to you.Its a horrible situation to be in.
 
Absolutely agree - if he were mine I would PTS immediately to stop any further suffering. I have been in a similar situation some years ago where my whippet was diagnosed with an inoperable nose tumour and it was very hard to make a decision when she appeared to be quite happy for quite a lot of the time - I am always incredibly glad I made the choice and had her PTS however, always better a day too early than an hour too late. You have my total sympathy :(
 
I think because GA would be so risky with his heart condition that I wouldn't treat in these circumstances. FWIW, I've never regretted not treating conditions and PTS (heartbroken, yes but not regretted) but I have felt guilty in the past for trying too hard with terminal illnesses if that makes sense?

So sorry you're going through this.
 
Aru said:
Personally I would not pursue further treatment beyond palliative care with a dog with an aggressive recurrant tumour whos losing weight and has a heart murmur.....I would be trying to keep him as happy and as painfree as possible...and I would also try and let him go a day to early,rather then a day to late.
Dogs live in the moment.They dont hope and dream from the future. Sometimes the kindest thing we can do is let them go before they are suffering. His daily quality of life will decide everything.
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agree completely and am so sorry you are going through this.
 
Totally agree with all the others re PTS and it would be done today, no question about it. Quality of life is all that counts.

Have you ever suffered from earache and can't do anything about it? Beside which, the growth you can see is only half of what is so invasive, it spreads so far. Just because chemo is available doesn't give us the right to put them through hell I'm afraid.
 
A good vet said to me many years ago that you know - there is a general deterioration but suddenly it goes downhill very rapidly. The trick is to catch it at that point and not leave it any longer. I have found this to be so true in very many cases
 
My heart goes out to you, what a difficult decision to make :( If you have a good vet and you trust their judgement I would try to be guided by them as to what is the best course of action.

I am so sorry you are in this situation.
 
i have personal experience with 2 dogs recently with cancer and the owners decided to go with the treatment as vets said it could give them another year, with luck....both of them only lasted 3 months from diagnosis, one was a flat coat retriever and the other a trailhound(different owners and different cancers) this has made my mind up that i wouldnt treat the cancer and as soon as quality of life lessened i would PTS....in your case i am afraid i would PTS...so sorry that you are having to go through this and good luck with whatever you decide...
 
I'm in the same boat as you right now, we've decided not to treat bar painkillers to keep him comfortable for as long as his quality of life is good.

He looks healthy, shiny coat, still eating/drinking and running around the place like a nutter.

As hard as it is knowing we could be treating it and that its spreading rapidly. Glad he's going to spend his final days as normal being spoilt. Once he starts to suffer we will let him go.

Vets estimate without treatment is 1-3 months without treatment, 6-12 with radiation therapy/chemo. If it could be cured we might have tried.
 
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spacefaer said:
Hard as it is to even think about, if he was my dog, I would call it a day. The treatment for cancer for either human or animal is not nice, and you can't explain to a dog why he feels so bad. With the heart issue as well, I think you are only prolonging the inevitable. My main (only) concern for my animals is their quality of life. Length of life is irrelevant if it is not a good one. I would suggest that weight loss can either be a symptom of stress or pain - has your vet suggested why he is losing weight so quickly?

It's a horrible situation to be in - you have my sympathy
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This 100%

Love and hugs.
 
Thanks everyone for all your advice and kind words. I also am leaning towards pts while he is still happy and not in any pain - our vet has offered to come and do it at home so he won't have to go through the stress of going in to the clinic.

It's good to get some other opinions though, as there's always the worry that you didn't do enough, and all of the vets we have spoken to have given us different answers to 'what do you recommend'. I think without the heart issues it might be worth trying to fight the cancer but it seems that the heart problems are more serious than we knew so I think that's the answer. Now we just need to choose a date when he can have a lovely walk, his favourite dinner, and go to sleep in his own bed.
 
TwyfordM said:
I'm in the same boat as you right now, we've decided not to treat bar painkillers to keep him comfortable for as long as his quality of life is good.

He looks healthy, shiny coat, still eating/drinking and running around the place like a nutter.

As hard as it is knowing we could be treating it and that its spreading rapidly. Glad he's going to spend his final days as normal being spoilt. Once he starts to suffer we will let him go.

Vets estimate without treatment is 1-3 months without treatment, 6-12 with radiation therapy/chemo. If it could be cured we might have tried.
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So sorry to hear that. It's so difficult knowing when to let them go when they are still looking and acting happy and normal.
 
I would lean towards Pts sooner rather than later especially with the weight loss you mention, I would be questioning whether the cancer has already spread or if the weight loss is due to pain. Weight loss is always due to something it does not just happen.
Tough thing to face and you have my sympathies.
 
twiggy2 said:
I would lean towards Pts sooner rather than later especially with the weight loss you mention, I would be questioning whether the cancer has already spread or if the weight loss is due to pain. Weight loss is always due to something it does not just happen.
Tough thing to face and you have my sympathies.
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Thank you. The weight loss has been slow but recently started becoming more dramatic - he is on double what he used to eat, divided into 5 or 6 meals per day; we were at the vet two days ago and he was 20kg and today he is 19 something so it seems to be dropping off him pretty quickly. At the hospital in Newmarket they wondered if the weight loss could be linked to the heart problem, but today the vet said it could be a sign that the cancer is spreading (although nothing else has shown up in the MRI or blood work). I really don't think it's pain related because he is a typical wimpy whippet - overreactive and whiny to any slight discomfort or upset, so I think he would be letting us know. Obviously impossible to know for sure though.
 
In my experience it is very likely that the weight loss is related to his cancer, and I agree with those who have said 'now' I'm afraid :(
 
The only person on this forum that knows your dog is YOU. If you think he's doing okay and not in any pain and that it's still a little early for him to go then do what you think is best for him.

But as others have said, a week too early is much better than a day too late. Perhaps book a few days off work so you can have a few amazing last days together before saying goodbye.
 
I called the vet the day we found out about Jake's tumours. Steroids might have reduced the size of the tumours, but it meant he couldn't walk. No life for a dog. I was really upset that the receptionist at the vet told me her dog had exactly the same issue, was defecating in his bed, couldn't get away from the mess, she tried steroids, kept him going for months til he eventually died. Bloody awful. Quality of life is paramount.
 
Holding said:
Thank you. The weight loss has been slow but recently started becoming more dramatic - he is on double what he used to eat, divided into 5 or 6 meals per day; we were at the vet two days ago and he was 20kg and today he is 19 something so it seems to be dropping off him pretty quickly. At the hospital in Newmarket they wondered if the weight loss could be linked to the heart problem, but today the vet said it could be a sign that the cancer is spreading (although nothing else has shown up in the MRI or blood work). I really don't think it's pain related because he is a typical wimpy whippet - overreactive and whiny to any slight discomfort or upset, so I think he would be letting us know. Obviously impossible to know for sure though.
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The weight loss is metabolic - its called cachexia and linked to the cancer usually (it's not always associated with anorexia/lack of appetite either). The moment it becomes evident is when I choose to put down. I'd rather not wait until the animal is suffering but catch it just before then and have them go happy and comfortable.
 
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