How far in dressage can an ‘average’ amateur realistically get?

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maya2008

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Discussion with a friend prompted this. Average ability, lesson once a fortnight, at work in an unrelated job during the day, one horse owner that has perhaps competed at prelim and maybe novice to date. Budget enough for a nice youngster but not endless for upkeep, lessons etc. The situation most people are in....
 
Medium is a very realistic goal, but not necessarily the end goal if everything else aligns.

A good run of luck on soundness and sufficient desire/self-motivation then PSG is very do-able.

But there are always examples of people who do more, some of who are on here.
 
I've always done dressage on a shoe string, non warmblood horses, lessons when I can afford it, usually once a month. I have taken two horses to Medium, an Arab x ID and my current quite crippled Connemara. If you have something that is naturally althletic and not idle then I can't see why PSG is not ultimately doable.
 
Too hard to quantify IMO. What is "average" for starters? I know that might seem pedantic but I've see people out at BE that can't do the basics and others that's "only" ride at home so are looked down upon yet they can't half train a horse and get a tune out of it.

Everyone also has a different natural ability/feel/balance etc and some of that can't be taught no matter how much is spent on horses or lessons. I guess that relates back to "average". Some people can have one lesson a month and either A) pick everything up immediately and/or B) be able to focus and work really hard in between lessons to make progress themselves.

Mindset and attitude plays a big part too, again IMO. If someone approaches anything thinking that they aren't good enough/don't belong/are at a disadvantage because they aren't a millionaire/etc then they are unlikely to succeed or progress in the same way that someone with a positive/can do attitude would. Then there is the motivation aspect of training/success too. I'm sure they'll pop up on this thread but I follow people on FB who are out riding in freezing temps at sparrow's fart before doing a full day of work and then riding/training/teaching/learning at nights as well as caring for their horses/yard. I don't imagine for one minute that it is "easy" per se but if you are driven and have that mindset it might not seem like that exhausting chore that it could be seen as.

Differences in mindsets and attitudes are clear when there are people up at 4am to do A, B & C then work all day and do X, Y & Z at night. We all (to a point) have the same number of hours in a day. To achieve certain things are goals for certain people and they know they have to put the work in to achieve it. To other people that isn't what they want and to do those hours seems like craziness. Both are ok!

Then there are external factors like time, facilities (for horse keeping and schooling), the "team" (trainers, farriers/hoof care, vet, saddle fitters, EDT, physical therapists (equine and human)) that can be stumbling blocks or a leg up too.

I would imagine rather than "how long is a piece of string?" type question if this is something that you or your friend want to pursue then pick a goal e.g. medium and work back to what you have to do to achieve that. Make medium the long term goal and put a date on it, then set medium term goals that are on the path to the end result and break it down to short term goals like training X amount of times, learning Y skills, riding Z tests and scoring certain %. It might be a tad laborious but it should be possible to cost it all out from now to the date of the end goal with the number of lessons/competitions/travel/farrier etc cycles within that timescale.

This is also a very long way of saying I have no idea and nothing of worth to contribute but I'm throwing in my worthless 2p anyway because I need to look busy while waiting on a PM to go over things and typing this helps make me look productive :p
 
It really is how is a piece of string... I took a non-purpose-bred native pony to medium largely from first principles, with a lesson on average once a month once he was already competing at elementary, and none beforehand. Not hugely successful competitively because I don't compete much or enjoy it, and I couldn't afford to keep doing it given how little I got out of it, but a few good scores when we did go out, and the horse was positively regarded by some decent trainers. That spanned a few years, before I reached a ceiling and moved on - but I suppose with a greater will for it, or the inclination to buy another horse, I could have gone further. If you look at the likes of Milliepops, the heights you could get to, if you're really dedicated, just keep creeping higher and higher :eek:
 
I agree with TPO, I think "how long is a piece of string" is about right.

I started off as a groom and a backing rider, barely any formal tuition, lots of unbacked and tricky horses to ride, parents who are totally unhorsey, and I worked in a dealing yard. Fast forward a few years, some horsey, some not, and I came back to horses by buying a 10yr old failed eventer for 2K and I also got two saddles chucked in for that price. This was a very difficult mare, I spent a useless year trying to make her event again, and failed, then decided at the very least I could try and improve her hideous flatwork, at that point I'd ridden a handful of BE Novice tests and a couple of unaff prelims and novices, and I had two non horse related jobs. I had the immense good fortune to have an amazing trainer come monthly to the yard across the rode from me, and I had monthly lessons, my mare was still tricky and she found competing too much for her funny brain, so I stopped competing and just trained instead. Within seven years the mare was at GP, and I could ride her through both the GP and the Special in front of my trainer as complete, correct tests.

So, its possible to go as far as your horses body will allow. Looking back, I consider myself immensely lucky, firstly to have such an outstanding trainer, but also for this to have been before social media, so I wasnt put off before I started by reading about others with super expensive horses etc, as I think this would have put me off before I even began. I think it was also lucky not to be competing, so I could just focus on the training and not get diverted by the requirements of specific tests, and watching others with so much more than me. I had no concept of how far I could go, and I certainly didnt have a plan, I was very committed to doing my homework, and reading, watching videos etc trying to learn as much as I could, and I just followed my trainers why of steady, systematic training, (based on the scales of training) and it worked. I also had no real concept of what my crazy mare and I had achieved, and that innocence really worked in my favour, as I thought everyone could do it.

Since then I have trained two more horses to GP, and these two compete, and now I realise how hard it is!
 
I'd agree that medium is very realistic for a sound horse and a committed rider.
I'm a very average rider, most of my riding life I've only had one very average horse to ride at a time, I am now able to have fortnightly lessons and I make big sacrifices to keep them up but did a lot with either very sporadic ones or none at all, just watching other people ;) I work full time and have my horses at DIY livery...

I think getting further than that depends a bit on luck and a bit on how much you really want it. Because learning and training a horse around other commitments when it's not your main job is hard, and sometimes people get stuck learning the changes, especially the first time round.
If you can get them easily, then AM is really "just" medium but with fancy bits, and then PSG is super fancy AM... I personally found the step from PSG to Inter1 not too bad because I found riding 2 tempis easier than 4s, though it does start to come pretty thick and fast by that stage. But now there's a big gulf to Inter2, I hope we can cross it.

I think you have to ignore your inbuilt limitations of being a hobby rider and having a cheapo horse, because if you start to think that way you won't ever try. Even if you have a fancy horse you still have to train it ;) I think it's more important to have really good training because that stays with you for every horse you ride, it's a better investment for those of us on a shoestring than one nice horse that wipes out your training budget.
 
I think you have to ignore your inbuilt limitations of being a hobby rider and having a cheapo horse, because if you start to think that way you won't ever try. Even if you have a fancy horse you still have to train it ;) I think it's more important to have really good training because that stays with you for every horse you ride, it's a better investment for those of us on a shoestring than one nice horse that wipes out your training budget.[/QUOTE]

MP is so, so right, learning how to train a horse is an invaluable investment, and way more important than buying the fancy horse.
 
daffy44 said:
Looking back, I consider myself immensely lucky, firstly to have such an outstanding trainer, but also for this to have been before social media, so I wasnt put off before I started by reading about others with super expensive horses etc, as I think this would have put me off before I even began.
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I'm not usually one to whine about what other people put on social media, but I do think this is a good point.
I have a few friends on FB who I have met via BD team comps etc and some really do seem to have it made. Amazing horses, amazing lorries, they do horses as a full time job yet seem like my peers... there's no point comparing yourself to them but it's human nature to do so. It's almost a different sport, what I'm trying to do with my freebie feral welsh in my free time, compared to their beautifully bred WBs. BUT I'm teaching her the same things, we have to ride the same tests.
Periodically I unfollow a few people to save myself from the mental torture!


I know they come under fire for having a championship for everyone but I do think BD have done good things with the associated champs etc to give the underdogs a really nice thing to aim at that is properly inclusive.
 
I know you dont think that MP!!

But I do think it makes a difference, I am old enough and ugly enough now to not let that sort of thing bother me, but even so, sometimes it requires a little effort to shake some things off. I think learning without social media was a huge benefit, as I think I could so easily have tormented myself and believed that I couldnt do anything before I even began. I do struggle at times with my self belief, and learning in the fabulously isolated way I did was fantastic for me, and I think a big part of being able to achieve what I did.
 
IMVHO Dressage is a journey not a destination so to me the question can't have an answer because there are too many variables. MP says she's an average rider but if she had my horse she's be doing med and working towards AM on her, whilst I am still struggling to get the basics consistently. People who know even less than me, think you buy a good horse and you buy success, that's not been my experience, the bigger moving, more talented the horse, the more skill it takes to ride it! I'm sure there are absolute saints out there but they are few and far between, generally not for sale and if they were they would be out of most people's price range. Any sound well trained horse with a reasonably competent rider should get to medium, even I managed that in test rides with a decent score and was schooling at AM at the end with Mr B but you may not score highly if the horse doesn't have good movement and you will get beaten every time by a better moving horse doing a probably slightly less accurate test. The first horse I had that I took out locally to UA dressage comps used to do quite well up to Novice often scoring in the low 70's. I now know he wasn't in front of the leg, not round enough, not supple enough and not though but he was a kind (mostly) obedient chap who could flick his little toes and look the part and i knew no better! Dressage is both difficult and demanding, but so very rewarding. I haven't answered OP's question because there is not answer, I just try to enjoy my lovely horse.
 
A bit of a side question but for those who have produced their own horses to GP, how long did it take? Did you start at 4-5 and went up a level every year or was it less gradual?
 
Palindrome said:
A bit of a side question but for those who have produced their own horses to GP, how long did it take? Did you start at 4-5 and went up a level every year or was it less gradual?
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Clearly I've never done it but having watched lots of riders who are on that journey, they move on at the pace that is suitable for the horse, there is no set pattern. some horses that go to GP never do well at the lower levels and therefore never appear in young horse classes. Others do stunningly well in young horse classes but never make it to GP. Once the tests require more collection and self carriage, they require more strength and for many horses that requires more time to mature. I'm sure others who have been on that journey will add to this but what I've learned is that if you don't establish the basics, you get found out every time you go up a level.
 
oldie48 said:
what I've learned is that if you don't establish the basics, you get found out every time you go up a level.
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Still a long way off GP but this is very true!
The other thing is you can feel like you've done a thorough job on your basics at one level, then try to train up a bit and realise it STILL wasn't thorough enough ?
 
I've taken my native from unaff intro to BD ele but it's getting tough now and I'm getting a bit tired of constantly being beaten by wealthy people on fancy horses. I've reached a point where I can't take it much further with my budget and time constraints. I work full time, horse is on DIY livery with pretty poor facilities, and I can only afford 1 lesson a month if that. I think someone who is more resilient than me could go further with the same limitations as me, but I'm starting to feel it now. I'm surrounded in my classes by the majority (not all!) of people who are in a far better position financially, have more time to train and compete, and/or work in the industry so are riding and competing a string of horses. I might be able to squeeze a medium or two out of my horse before I totally run out of steam but I think that might be it. At my age, all the 5.30 am starts to ride before work do begin to catch up with you.
 
Palindrome said:
A bit of a side question but for those who have produced their own horses to GP, how long did it take? Did you start at 4-5 and went up a level every year or was it less gradual?
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In my experience its a lot less linear than that, going up a level every year is maybe the ideal, but not very realisitic. As I said in one of my earlier posts, the first horse I took to GP was 10yrs old when I started with a lot of bad things to unravel, it took seven years for her to be GP, the first few years were slow, the last few were fast.

The next mare was a just backed five yr old when we started together, she got to GP at the age of 13, again quite slow at the start, then she got very stuck on the changes, so when we didnt have a reliable, clean change each way, we did have a pretty good piaffe and passage. It took this mare almost two years to get a really secure change each way, then the 4s, 3s, and 2s came really quickly, but the ones took a long time again, so the progress was anythng but linear, but she got there and was a reliable, secure, correct GP at the age of 13, so it took her 8yrs.

The next one was very easy both mentally and physically, he was backed at the start of his 4yr old year, and did his first GP at the end of his 10 yr old year so it only took 6yrs for him. I think it was quicker for him because I knew more, and also because he is very talented and has had no real issue with anything, so he probably was roughly a level a year after doing his first Novices as a 5yr old.
 
So for the people on here, who got further than Medium, did you have a fancy warmblood? Medium is my goal with coblet - he’s sound, young and enjoys his work. He’s the first one since my TB who I can really get lost in while schooling, as he’s with me 100% of the way. I love how the world fades around us and it’s just the two of us, concentrating on whatever we’re doing. My old TB with locking stifles, no facilities and all, made it to Elementary before I ruined our chances of getting further by getting pregnant and then having too many complications from all that to ride properly for 4 years.

Friend was musing about getting further, but said she’d not be able to ride a really fancy youngster capable of going all the way up, so Medium was probably the ceiling for an average person like her. So I wondered- is it?
 
Oh god no, look at MP or Diamonds in the Rough they've ridden all sorts through the levels!

Even myself managed to get the bonkers cart horse to PSG! From starting dressage at 10 we did our first PSG this year so 6 years of training, but she is fairly bonkers and the changes were tricky!
 
maya2008 said:
So for the people on here, who got further than Medium, did you have a fancy warmblood? Medium is my goal with coblet - he’s sound, young and enjoys his work. He’s the first one since my TB who I can really get lost in while schooling, as he’s with me 100% of the way. I love how the world fades around us and it’s just the two of us, concentrating on whatever we’re doing. My old TB with locking stifles, no facilities and all, made it to Elementary before I ruined our chances of getting further by getting pregnant and then having too many complications from all that to ride properly for 4 years.

Friend was musing about getting further, but said she’d not be able to ride a really fancy youngster capable of going all the way up, so Medium was probably the ceiling for an average person like her. So I wondered- is it?
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I think this mind set needs to change.
We are talking ‘average’ here not highly placed national championship material. The latter I agree helps if you have a purpose bred horse and the funds/ability to train it.

The former, id go as far to say, are probably better off not buying the Ferrari. They need a horse that’s reasonably well put together, is forward thinking and is trainable - one that fits into their lifestyle. Getting that type into the Medium-PSG bracket is simply riding/training and staying sound. Granted you might not be consistently on 70%+, but you can have a damn good stab at the level.
 
yeah I was thinking about this earlier today. As an amateur with a pretty rubbish horse for dressage (difficult brain and wrong body type!) I have my own assessment of what success means. For me, my horse is a pretty reliable mid-60s horse at all levels and that has been enough to qualify us for regionals and area festivals at all levels, but we won't ever make it to the nationals. I'm fine with that, we are still producing correct tests at the higher levels and I am getting a lot of experience and satisfaction from it. I'd rather do a mid 60s small tour test on her than still be trying to get the 75% at elementary ;)

Do I wish I had the ferrari? Yeah sure! Would it be as fun? Maybe, maybe not. I am quite happy where I am tbh, my last horse was from a rescue centre, this one (native) was a gift as she was ruined, the next project is a freebie ex racer and there's a lot of personal satisfaction to be had from training a horse that no one expects to be any good.

Moaning that you can't achieve things because you're a hobby rider and you don't have a posh horse will get you nowhere. Getting out there to see what you CAN achieve with the horse you have got, is much more likely to yield success :)
 
maya2008 said:
Discussion with a friend prompted this. Average ability, lesson once a fortnight, at work in an unrelated job during the day, one horse owner that has perhaps competed at prelim and maybe novice to date. Budget enough for a nice youngster but not endless for upkeep, lessons etc. The situation most people are in....
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I have taken my horse to unaffiliated elementary dressage in a GP saddle without having lessons. I just cracked on with it which is my philosophy in life. It would be exactly the same when I have another horse eventually. I will be out doing some sort of competition within a week, two weeks max. It either works or it doesn't, we either get placed or we don't. I never used to get stressed about winning at any of my chosen disciplines. I was happy if we got round safe and lived to see another day :)

I also did a BD Novice class on a day ticket and we came in the first half out of a field of about 25 which proved that we were performing well enough!

Its always a bit of fun for me, never really serious. I prefer it that way, its stressful enough! :)
 
milliepops said:
Sounds like the OPs friend has aspirations a bit higher than that though, which will require a lot of work and training, even on the top bred WBs you still need training to get up the ladder! ;)
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I am sure they do. But what I am saying is that the vast majority of people I know would still be kicking around at prelim level and not go up a level for fear of making a fool of themselves or their horses. Stuff that I say.
 
The only reason my highland "stuck" at medium is because I'd accidentally trained him not to do something I later wanted, and I didn't successfully manage to change that in the arena, and when I got out, I didn't have the will to go back to it. It's something that has been partially fixed out hacking, so if I went back to dressage and invested in good training, I'd expect him to step up a bit more - although very much not at a competitive / high scoring level.
 
I have two friends that have gone pretty far as average riders on average horses. One did PSG on her welsh cob at around 60 %, the other starts Inter I consistently around 67 % on a warmblood-type with unknown pedigree. So it is doable, but it definitely takes a lot of effort and diligence.
 
I'd definitely agree that once you leave the lower levels you really do need some instruction from someone who knows the higher level stuff, as if you've never done it before it would be crazy hard to do it alone!

I got Topaz to around medium level (still with lessons mind), but once I started training with a GP rider our progress was so much faster! Medium to Advanced in about 18months I think. Never underestimate how much the right trainer can help, even if it's just giving you the support to keep on keeping on!

It's also important to know what you want out of competing, if you want to win and win big on big scores then that might be harder with something not bred for the job/ not having loads of lesson/ etc/ etc. But if you get satisfaction of knowing you trained that horse to that level and can be proud of that 60's% score, then it's really do'able even with something not bred for the job.

Though we have managed to win a few classes, win a sash and even get through to the Petplan finals a couple of times (right place, right time and Topaz being ever so brave for those few minutes lol), but they were the exceptions for us not the norm.
 
I took my "broken down" ex-showjumper to compete at (the equivalent of) medium dressage (I'm in France), and she had an "interesting" physique - she looked a bit like a cut-and-shut, sickled hocked. On our last outing, she won with over 70 per cent and I decided to stop there (she was 16) as it was just such a wonderful moment for me, I was so proud of her.

I was lucky enough to be able to ride one PSG horse and two retired GP horses (I know, so lucky) while I still had that horse. It gave me a taste for the higher levels, so when my horse needed a quieter life, I scraped together enough money for a talented warmblood four year old ... And completely overhorsed myself. I ended up selling her three years later and now I have a Heinz 54 and am finally enjoying riding again.

The thing about the "fancy" warmblood was that she was not particularly difficult for a warmblood and I have been riding for nearly 30 years, but having spent a lot on buying her I didn't have enough money to transport out for lessons regularly enough or to have someone else ride her often enough. I could only manage one lesson a week and have someone else ride her once every two weeks or so. Plus I have a busy job and sometimes all I had time for was for a short walk hack.

All this was fine with my previous horse, but not enough for her. I think we would have been fine with two lessons a week, plus being ridden once or twice by my trainer, as her brain needed to be kept a lot busier than I could manage on my own. She was never nasty, but the power and athleticism could boil over that much more quickly.

I also learned something quite important about myself in that what I really loved with the first horse was the journey of learning and the competition wasn't really the goal itself, just the icing on the cake. It is also really important to me that I can get out and bumble round the countryside if I've had a stressful day at the office or just go and stuff the pony full of carrots and leave her to eat grass. I can't and don't want to commit to having to train super seriously every day, although I do take training seriously when I do do it.

Everyone is different though, I don't mean this to be a cautionary tale!

I have a friend who's taken her horse from a four year old to GP, but she did invest a lot of money in training and is self-employed so can move her schedule around - she is also much braver and more talented than me :)
 
I think it's easy to fall into the trap that moving up a level is about the horse being able to do the required movements but it is so much more than that ie the frame from prelim to Novice to elementary etc changes, a horse competing at prelim might be able to move sideways but may not be able to maintain the rhythm and required frame, a horse may show the ability to lengthen strides but lacks the collection to do it properly etc. I bobbled around quite happily UA and even did some elementary tests but looking back I realise that although in my head we were doing the movements, actually we weren't and a half decent judge, even UA would knock the marks down (but not always!).
 
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