How far would you go to learn?

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Dry Rot

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In my youth, I hitch hiked around the countryside and worked in various establishments for free for the privilege of pushing a broom so I could learn.

OK, I'm male so hitch-hiking is not a problem, but these days even 17yos seem to expect a wage. One girl, on placement from the council, was going to be provided with a wage and a 10 mile taxi ride (at public expense), to and fro work, as they were worried she might be raped if she used (Scottish rural) public transport! Thank goodness, she decided to go into hair dressing instead!:D

Do you think things have gone too far or is everyone, regardless of age and experience, worthy of a wage?
 
i am 17 now - but female!

if i didnt have other ties (college/horses etc) i would be very happy to work for free in establishments in return for accomadation, food and decent learning. from what i have found very few places are unwilling to give teaching in all aspects of horsey stuff including riding! they want literally a broom pusher - but what do you learn from this?

it is also more difficult to live nowerdays, you can no longer live without money. and it is also more difficult to not pay any one.

if places of work gave better courses and really taught, rather than stay within governemnt red tape - which is the problem - more people would be willing to learn without pay as they could get excellent skills for free, bar working hard!
 
I'm sorry, but I am quite shocked by this!

In my book, if people do a job of work, they get paid for it, regardless of how old they are or how much they have to learn! If they don't/can't do the job then you pay them up and fire them.

I really don't see why anyone should work for nothing. They still have to eat, after all!
 
Weren't there a series of articles in the Guardian about this? The whole internship debacle,essentially limiting jobs in certain industries to people who can afford to work without pay for some amount of time.

I know it's business as usual in the horse industry. I did a stint as working student years ago. I'm trying to do some paid work now teaching and training and I'm finding no shortage of people who want someone to train their green horse for free.
 
Difficult one.

The first time I muck out a box for you, you're doing me a massive favour and teaching me a useful skill, and of course I shouldn't be paid.

The 100th time I muck out a box for you, I'm doing you a massive favour and certainly shouldn't need any more training and experience, and of course I should be paid.

Where does the balance shift?

The problem in the horse world is that a lot of the grunt work is picked up pretty quickly, and the value to the employer quickly equals or exceeds value to the employee / intern, which is when I think pay should kick in. Just because someone is learning in their role, it doesn't mean they shouldn't be paid - I'm still learning even though I've got Director in my job title, and I certainly think I ought to be paid :p

I don't think everyone is worthy of a wage, regardless of experience - but I do think we should pay a wage when it becomes fair to do so.
 
A new guy started at my (non-horsey) work four months ago. He's only just reached the point where he's learned enough about the network and the vast variety of kit we have in it that he can really pull his weight.

There's a learning curve in any job, and you still get paid while you're climbing that curve.

If it genuinely is a case of a working pupil - they're getting solid, definite training, preferably with some form of useful qualification at the end of it - then they should be treated the same as any other apprentice.

If it's the kind of 'working pupil' who gets trained on nothing more than how to use a yard brush and tie up a hay net, they should be getting at least minimum wage.
 
See, I think you should be paid, from day one. I manage an office, not a yard, but if I take someone on then I pay them from day one, and I expect to offer training if it is an entry-level job.

Shovelling horse **** I would class as an entry-level job. After a week or at most two, the trainee is worth at least what I am paying, so where's the problem?

Experienced staff are no good to me when they go on holiday, but I expect to pay them for this, too!
 
In my case, my passion was so strong I hitch hiked over most of England and Ireland to learn from those who had the knowledge I wanted and I believe I am better for it.

A lot of that learning was by sitting and watching and asking questions. I'd never have got that at college or from books or videos. Pushing a broom was just something that had to be done and we got on with it. Maybe we were mugs, but I look around today and wonder how much more ignorance there can be! Yes, I got paid, but not in money but in knowledge and that is beyond price. Looking back, I think I got the best of the bargain.
 
I'm baffled by this. Are you saying that at 17yo someone who does a job, doesn't deserve money. But someone in, say, their 40s doing the same job does? What an odd idea :confused:
 
Elsiecat said:
I'm baffled by this. Are you saying that at 17yo someone who does a job, doesn't deserve money. But someone in, say, their 40s doing the same job does? What an odd idea :confused:
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No, I think dryrot is saying that sometimes work should be undertaken in exchange for the opportunity to learn - much like helping at an RS in exchange for lessons / rides, which is certainly something I used to do (granted I was a teenager, but I don't think the age is the point - it's the level of experience, I was building up mine so I needed the opportunities to learn and did the work to get them). Much like you pay for a university education with money, you pay for a horse education with work. It's not always feasible in today's society, and attitudes do seem to be changing. People think they are entitled to everything regardless of the work they put in.


In a more literal answer to your question, I drove to surrey to watch a clinic, paid for the privellege and froze to boot. I didn't have to do any hard labour though :p
 
Ah I see now. I'm not sure how I feel really then. It would depend on the circumstances, the people and what actual new experiences people were getting from it!
 
Elsiecat said:
Ah I see now. I'm not sure how I feel really then. It would depend on the circumstances, the people and what actual new experiences people were getting from it!
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Very sensible, but it's not just new experiences - it's exposure to theoretical knowledge too. I'd happily exchange hours of work for the opportunity to watch certain classical trainers ride / hold clinics, even though I wouldn't be experiencing new things, only learning by watching and listening, were it feasible to do so. But then, I am the sort of person who learns by watching, listening, reflecting, mimicking, trying and applying what works. Other people prefer to learn by doing first, or being taught directly etc, so there is an element of horses for courses.
 
I worked at a yard for 8 months for almost nothing
Started from scratch pretty much though I had read a lot etc
Was a bit niave and slightly taken advantage of cause the deal was learning for the benefit of learning+also riding lessons (had about 3)
But after months of poo picking,mucking out,bringing in,feeding,grooming,washing,turning out etc etc I felt that I should have been given something resembling an hourly/daily rate
Did learn a lot though and don't regret it,we parted on bad terms but are talking now and I plan to visit :)
 
I spent a fortnight four summers in a row getting up at 6am to make breakfasts for 35, getting prune hands from endless washing up, helping cook lunch and supper for 35, making tea and finally getting to bed in my tent in the back garden around 1am after clearing up all the wine glasses from the inevitable evening party - all unpaid. What did I get in return? The chance to sit and listen to one of the best flute players in the world teach for 8 hours a day (and I was page turning for his accompanist, who became a good friend, so I got all his sotto voce commentary as well).
 
I agree that it depends on how much is gained by the person working unpaid.
As a teen I helped out of riding schools in exchange for a spot on the helpers ride at the end of the day,it was invaluable experience.
The yard got an extra pair of hands and I learned a lot,everyone was happy :)

However, if I had been there just to do the job without any new learning I would defiantly have expected pay whatever my age!
 
I used to anything to learn. When I was 15 I worked three days a week at a riding school for free just in exchange for the odd ride. I started at 7am and finished at 5pm on the weekends, just after school during the week, helping with lessons, mucking out, poo picking etc. Anything just to be around the horses and learn more. When I was 17 I went abroad for a couple of years, working for basically nothing. If someone would give me a room and food I would work for them! I had some amazing opportunities and learned so much. Rode some amazing horses and got quite far competitively. I had the best time ever, and the experiences I had were invaluable. When I returned to the UK I did another couple of years doing the same thing, where I could work I was there regardless of how crap the pay was. I did a lot of eventing during this time and loved it. Couldn't care less if I was dirt poor!

However .... I would never do this now. I learned so much, gained so much experience and qualifications and am far more expensive to employ now than free bed and board! Now I feel like I have something to offer a yard I am no longer free labour. I think many people are not willing to earn this right to charge for their service. After all, you do not get paid to go to college and essentially the four years I did working for next to nothing I would count as my education. Of course, you need to live but if you count up how much it costs a yard to house and feed and transport you, it actually works out as minimum wage often enough. There are too many young people expecting to walk straight in to a well paid grooms job who don't have the experience to warrant this.

From the other side however, there are yards who are expecting the world for pennies an hour. I refuse to manage a yard, calculate budgets, keep accounts, hire and fire, work out fitness plans and diet plans etc for minimum wage or indeed for a room in a shared house. My services are worth much more than that. This is one of the reasons I am now freelance.
 
Oris, those are pretty much my thoughts too.

Youngsters can be pretty clueless. Like, who washes down a sloping yard from the bottom up? Who carries an armful of straw across a nice tidy yard leaving a trail a mile wide? (And, more to the point, who tidies up when they've messed up?).

Clueless youngsters can be a liability or the law would not insist on employers liability whether they are paid or not. And they deserve paying as well? Come off it! If they don't like it, the door is exactly where it was when they came in!:D

The whole principle of a wage is that them that's employed turn a profit for them who employ, the employers. Not much profit following a dimwit around closing gates and picking up bits of tack left out in the rain because they can't be bothered to return it to its proper place. Ggggrrr!!!
 
Well I'm glad you're not my boss then, Dry Rot!

On this basis, no-one would ever be entitled to holiday, sick pay etc and heaven help anyone who got pregnant!

As an employer, you have to accept that if you want someone to do something for you, you have to pay them, and also train them.

If your experience is that young people are so useless, perhaps this is because the lack of pay doesn't attract anyone competent? As the saying goes, you pay peanuts, you get monkeys. So what do you get ifyoupay nothing at all?
 
I am a lot older than 17 and would happily work for someone for free if I was getting quality learning in return. I couldn't do it permenantly as I have to pay the bills. Money isn't everything, I think knowledge is far more valuable.


ETA, I work for myself so don't get holidays, sick pay or (god forbid) maternity pay!
 
nosenseofdirection said:
If your experience is that young people are so useless, perhaps this is because the lack of pay doesn't attract anyone competent? As the saying goes, you pay peanuts, you get monkeys. So what do you get ifyoupay nothing at all?
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I understand your point here, however there is a big difference between paying someone to do a useful job and taking someone on as a working student.

As a working student you should expect to be working to learn, not to earn a huge wage particularly if you are being offered a place to stay and getting fed which in my experience is what a lot of these positions offer. Of course the grooms or manager should be paid a decent wage, as you say this will attract the right kind of experience or qualifications.

I think the point the OP is trying to make is that working students can't demand more than pocket money realistically as they have nothing to offer a yard except a keen attitude and willingness to learn, which is fine but it requires some degree of skill to justify a proper wage.

The point I was trying to make in my previous post is that these working student positions are essentially a learning experience and as I said you don't get paid to go to college and train so why would you be paid more than a token amount to be taken on at a yard to learn how to be a groom etc?
 
Orls said:
As a working student you should expect to be working to learn, not to earn a huge wage particularly if you are being offered a place to stay and getting fed which in my experience is what a lot of these positions offer. Of course the grooms or manager should be paid a decent wage, as you say this will attract the right kind of experience or qualifications.
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I guess we have a rather different idea of what the role of a working pupil is.
My experience is that a WP does the job of a groom but takes a lesser wage in exchange for getting training during the course of the working day( a riding lesson and a stable management lesson).

In the situation above, you should most defiantly not be grateful simply to be allowed on the yard- you are doing a job first and formost and should be paid appropriately!


Orls said:
I think the point the OP is trying to make is that working students can't demand more than pocket money realistically as they have nothing to offer a yard except a keen attitude and willingness to learn, which is fine but it requires some degree of skill to justify a proper wage.
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Again I disagree.
Even basic stable management is valuable to a yard.
At a riding school for example, a few working pupils under the supervision of a senior groom can run the yard very well in peak times, leaving qualified instructors to teach.
That allows everyone to get on with tasks appropriate to their pay level and to maximise profits for the riding school.



Orls said:
The point I was trying to make in my previous post is that these working student positions are essentially a learning experience and as I said you don't get paid to go to college and train so why would you be paid more than a token amount to be taken on at a yard to learn how to be a groom etc?
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Because if you chose the college route you go purely to learn, you are paying for the teaching experience of the lecturers and their ability to help you pass you exams.

As a working pupil, you are at the yard to do a job and learn along the way.
 
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