How important do you think an outline is?

[minkymoo]

I ask this question for a few reasons, the first is because I have a (dear) friend who is obsessed with getting a horse in an outline, and second because I don't feel that many people seem to know exactly how to achieve this.

I have had K since Feb and have worked really hard on my confidence and my riding as well as getting to know him. We entered our first prelims on Sat and I was thrilled as I got the result I wanted out of it and I did it.

My friend however has (almost) constantly told me I need to get him working on the bit and from behind. I know this but we have only been having lessons properly for a fortnight as I have wanted to enjoy my horse and hack him out and have fun.

Her yard is extremely 'dressagey', it is an Albion dressage saddle or bust, they never hack their horses and it just seems to me that they always tell her to get her horse on the bit. This seems to be achieved either by wiggling the reins or holding their hands down by their knees.

I feel however, as she is bringing her mare back into work, she needs to give both herself & her horse confidence in each other and restart from scratch almost.

There is more to riding than solely getting on the bit, getting your transitions right, getting your horse to listen to you and above all the pair of you enjoying it!

So, what are your thoughts? I do understand it is important, but it isn't the be all & end all of riding is it?

 

[chillidragon]

I do think an awful lot is made of it when, quite honestly, it's hard to achieve and yes, it may be wonderful if you decide that riding is simply all about performing the most magnificent extended trot ever known to man, but if that doesn't bake your noodle then quite honestly, what's the point? If the way you enjoy your horse doesn't cause it or yourself any harm then chuck the outline in the bin.

 

[flowerlady]

I answered over-rated. Unless you want to do dressage. If it's not the horses natural way of going and you have control (well as much as we can) and the horse is healthy and happy then don't worry. Just enjoy.

 

[L00bey]

Depends what you want to do. A fairly well known event rider in my area always said though "By getting your horse working correctly, you help elongate (sp?!?!) said horses working life."

 

[Bess]

I think you should concentrate on you and your horse and do what you want to do, hack, have lessons etc. but forget about her yard and what she thinks. Just enjoy yourself, relax and have fun.

 

[Storminateacup]

I vote its over-rated.

Watching old John Wayne movies with OH the past few weekends , it struck me that none of these superb quarter horses and the paint ponies ridden by the Indians were 'on the bit' but their hocks were beautifully flexed through the joints, and the hindlimbs properly engaged. They carried the weight on the hind quarters naturally. Now I know Quarter horses are renown for having this characteristic because they are terrifically powerful in the hind musculature.
But these horses are also seriously fit and hard, they do a lot of slow and fast canter and galloping work.
The horses were amazingly athletic and none of them seemed on the forehand even the the obviously plainer 'extras' horses. They were all light as a feather in the mouth, and turn and neck rein beautifully.

I have a sneaky feeling that 'On the Bit' and 'Rounded Outline' may soon be seriously out of fashion.

If you watch healthy, sound horses galloping about the field they only sporadically assume the 'on the bit' way of moving, they have lots of other ways of moving too, sometimes throwing their heads up, or away to the side opposite to the direction of travel.
I think expecting horses to always move with their heads down and neck arched in this artificial exaggerated way puts huge strain on the ligaments and tendon of the back and hind limbs.
I certainly don't expect this of my horse, but sometimes he chooses to carry himself that way, other times he has his head in the air.

 

[PapaFrita]

Useful, but not the be all and end all. I'm just a SJer though

 

[itsme123]

Terribly over rated. People seem obsessed, and then wonder why they have a constant battle with their horses. Unless you're doing dressage or showing, then what's the point? We should all learn HOW to do it, because it can be useful, but our horses should be allowed to carry themselves as naturally as possible for every day work.

 

[Bossanova]

You have to consider why working a horse in an outline was originally brought in.

It's not just to pose and look attratcive, a horse working in a correct outline is in balance and carrying its rider in the easiest way for its physique. Letting a horse slop along not in balance is doing far more harm than good.

 

[Bossanova]

[ QUOTE ]

If you watch healthy, sound horses galloping about the field they only sporadically assume the 'on the bit' way of moving, they have lots of other ways of moving too, sometimes throwing their heads up, or away to the side opposite to the direction of travel.
I think expecting horses to always move with their heads down and neck arched in this artificial exaggerated way puts huge strain on the ligaments and tendon of the back and hind limbs.


[/ QUOTE ]

A horse in the field doesnt have the weight of a rider to worry about. You stick 10+ stone on his back, centered over his front limbs then you have seriously altered his Natural balance.

Dont get me wrong, pulling a hors ein or riding it overbent is worse imo but you should always be striving for balance and that is acheived partly through having the back rounded and the head in the correct place.

 

[AmyMay]

Boss hit's the nail on the head. The other thing to consider though - and something that I find very interesting - is how horses naturally start working in an outline when ridden correctly.

I ride a lot of hunters - and most of them will not have been 'schooled' as it were. However, through correct riding most of them work in an outline, and work correctly.

 

[ann-jen]

I think it depends a little on how you define "outline" - to me there are different types of outline - long and low for example as opposed the very upright position I think you are probably referring to. To me this isn't just about the positioning of the head - it is to do with engagement of the hind quarters and looseness through the back. With my own horse I expect a completely different type of outline when I am jumping to when I am doing dressage - the horses overall shape looks very different - but I would still be working to achieve a horse that is working through from behind in both cases. Having had a few issues with my horse's back earlier in her career I would have said working on an outline was quite important (in the way I think about outline) - working long and low helped to build up the correct musculature to enable my horse to carry me more easily. As her work progresses she finds it easier and easier to stay engaged behind and work in a more upward frame - its something that has developed as she has become generally stronger rather than something I insist she does. For me working on dressage and outline has been crucial to enable my horse to carry out her main job (jumping) in as easy a way as possible for her physically.

 

[the watcher]

ann-jen, I agree.
The question here is whether the horse is working in true balance and powering through from behind. In more advanced horses this will result in the horse being higher at the poll with a more vertical head position, at lower levels the head will be carried lower and the nose will be ahead of the vertical.

I don't actually care too much where the head is - it is the final consequence of the rest of the horse working correctly and to an extent will simply fall into place.

So, outline is important - but forcing the nose down and in does not equal outline.

 

[hellybelly6]

There are two ways of getting an outline. There is the pull it in the mouth and see-saw method without engaging the hocks or back, or there is the 'classical' method of having a forward going horse working through his back and hocks and the outline will gradually happen.

It is not something I would ask of a horse who is unfit and unused to this way of going, ditto the rider.

I rated it as over rated.

 

[vennessa]

I am so glad this has been brought up. My youngest daughter has private lessons with someone who does affiliated dressage but is a very good alround instructer.
We took daughters new pony for her lesson last week - never again. Instructer insists on an outline and worked pony at it hard. Pony is only 4. It ended up bucking big time.
I am more gentle in working at these things and get there in the end. I also like to work horse forwards into my hand. Instructer does but also insists on a stron contact.
It works on instructers older horses - they know what is asked of them but Ester didn't.
I was very happy with lesson in most ways but felt asking of an outline so soon was too much for her.
She did do it which i think is why instructer was pushing it but found it hard.
Pony isn't going this week...or next

 

[minkymoo]

[ QUOTE ]
So, outline is important - but forcing the nose down and in does not equal outline.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is just what I think, I also agree with the above comment about working long & low (I warm up this way) being beneficial to the horse.

I guess the point I was trying to make, was not that an outline is not important, but why there is this obsession with it when most of the people I see just try to tuck their horses head in without actually doing it properly.

 

[Jingleballs]

I voted something we are working towards amoung other things.

I don't care about it in terms of aesthetics but more in terms of getting the horse to relax and carry himself correctly as opposed to being hollow and uncomfortable.

 

[saskia295]

I know a lot of dressage people that wrap their horses up in cotton wool, never turn them out, never hack etc. Their work is solely in the school.

However, there are SO many benefits to hacking the dressage horse. It keeps them interested, gets their fitness up, allows them to relax and have fun for once, and hillwork etc really builds up their muscles which helps to do more athletic movements, including piaffe etc.

If people want to stable their horses 24/7 and do nothing but seriousness in the school than that's fine, but I think their horse would be happier, healthier and much more able in a dressage arena by hacking them out a little.

 

[timmy1977]

i think having a horse going in an outline is an indication that your horse is relaxed and using itself properly. unfortunately nowadays far too many peope think if they pull the horses head down or constantly use draw riens to get this effect then the horse is going well when in reality it isnt relaxed at all. the idea is that if you ride the horse forward and in a relaxed balanced way the horse will relax through its back along its spine up its neck and its head will drop into that position that so many people try to achieve. so i think an outline is important but only if achieved in the right way, but an outline isnt the be all and end all after all a horse that doesnt go in an outline is very possibly going better and moving better than a horse that is being forced into an outline. as long as you enjoy your riding and your horse enjoys it thats the main thing.

 

[spotty_pony]

It's something I am working towards.

Tbh, an outline isn't that important and can only be achieved with the correct schooling. People love to see their horses carrying their heads prettily but that carriage of the horse's head should come naturally. You see an awful lot of horses working lazily behind but holding their heads beautifully. In order for the horse to be working in a true outline, it should be moving forwards, tracking up and working into the contact.

 

[MerryMaker]

Personally, I work my mare in an outline in the school but she works properly from a contact in balance, I warm up long and low, walk for 20 minutes before and after a schooling session and give her plenty of "breaks" if she is working particularly hard. She is working Medium level plus a few harder things, but she goes out in the field 13 hours a day, I make sure she gets hacked out at least once a week, and when we do hack I let her go along how she fancies as I beleive hacking should be a rest for them as well as us. (Though if she's being naughty she works round for a few minutes until we have got over the "phase, as it distracts her from being silly!)

I think it depends on what you want, if you enjoy hacking and having fun, great, it's not essential, if you do dressage or showing, an outline is important BUT it needs to be a soft, natural correct one, I hate nothing more than seeing seesawing on a horses mouth.

 

[Natch]

I voted for its something I use when schooling. I can't imagine schooling without working towards a horse truly engaged and using itself properly, because to get everything else (lateral etc) needs that as a good ground IMO.

If I slugged along with F not worrying about him being in self-carriage he would lean on my hands, tiring me out, or evade upwards and be really uncomfortable, not least to say he would almost certainly trip and fall over. I have to work him into a contact and bring him off his forehand out hacking for the same reasons.

I do however believe it isn't the be all and end all. If you're having lessons your instructor will be slotting everything into place piece by piece, so it will come when its right for you and your horse! I would question the wisdom of anyone who chooses to always school seriously and never hack out or chill out. That is how dressage horses have nervous breakdowns IMO.

 

[arwenplusone]

[ QUOTE ]
You have to consider why working a horse in an outline was originally brought in.

It's not just to pose and look attratcive, a horse working in a correct outline is in balance and carrying its rider in the easiest way for its physique. Letting a horse slop along not in balance is doing far more harm than good.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm with Bossanova on this one - I DO hate to see horses forced into an outline, but there is a reason for getting the horse to work correctly and in balance.

 

[alicep]

Its part of my schooling. i dont think its vital to work in an outline but i do think it helps build up the muscle tone correctly and steadily. normally i hack out most days on my loan pony but we would normally find a clearing to have a little school or use the beach. i would normally ask for some work in an outline at this point but we are not competing and he is really just a happy hack so i dont do too much.

 

[Parkranger]

Ok, my opinion, for what it's worth is that an outline is important for anything other than hacking!

For jumping, they'll do better if working from behind, for schooling it obviously makes a difference.....I used to have to ride a warmblood I had on loan in an outline or he'd spook at everything!

Oscar's back was a bit of a nightmare when I got him as he was good at hollowing his back and dropping his head.....but I could tell he wasn't in an outline and we're slowly getting there.

I think it's important that a horse carries your weight properly and the majority of them aren't going to work down and round unless you tell them to!

 

[little_flea]

I completely agree with Bossanova and Arwen - an "outline" or however you want to define it, really isn't about bending the neck - it is about achieving the most balanced way of going the horse can achieve based on its conformation and level of education.

And as someone else said, it certainly is about longevity as well - when a rider is on the horse, it carries a much higher percentage of weight on its front end compared to the horse just on its own - and if you consider that the front legs of a horse are attached by muscles, tendons and ligaments only rather than with skeletal joints, it makes it easier to understand why the redistribution of weight to the back end of the horse is so important.

 

[jellyshake]

it's over rated, or perhaps that should have been it's misunderstood, i think it's better for the horse to be encouraged to work correctly, thats what i aim for when i do school, which admittedly is not very often as i find it as boring as shell does lol.

 

[Gorgeous George]

I put over-rated, I understand why it is important to get the horse working correctly and in balance, but I find myself getting so hung up on the 'outline' that I forget to appreciate that I am actually lucky enough to have my own horse and just enjoy him!

So we work on it during our lessons when I have someone to ensure I am doing things 'right' and when I'm schooling I am now trying to just ride him forward instead of worrying about what his head his doing.

This is just my HO and I am a novice who just wants to have fun and dabble in the odd local comp - if I was competing seriously it would be different.

 

[bex1984]

I put over-rated. But then that is probably because I can't do it!!!

I would quite like it if my pony would go in an outline because I enjoy doing showing classes and he always seems to be the only one not in an outline

...but it's not the end of the world as I enter for fun, not to win. I do understand the value of it though....but Murphy doesn't!!

 

[trundle]

Yanking / tying the horse's head in isn't "working in an outline". A proper outline comes from the back end first, fiddling away with the horse's front end is just easier on the rider!

I'm getting a bit anal about this at the moment, as the Moose is just coming back into work after having a lot of time off with a muscle injury. A horse that works correctly, using its back properly, is less likely to hurt itself, and will better able to carry the weight of a rider. I want her to stay fit, so its importnant to me to get her working correctly.