How is he looking? CC please.

[Tash88]

I've never done one of these threads before, but it would be really interesting to get some unbiased feedback and advice for my horse. He is a 16hh 6 y/o WB x TB and does mainly flatwork. I've had him just over a year. Constructive criticism appreciated. I'm struggling at the moment with developing his neck and back end, although I have just started riding and lunging in an EquiAmi and he now feels much stronger, so hopefully things are moving in the right direction.

Taken today:

And one from last spring:

Thank you in advance, Tash x

 

[CobsGalore]

I think he looks great perfect weight, just needs a bit more muscle as you mention, but that will come with time

 

[monkeybum13]

I think he looks great perfect weight, just needs a bit more muscle as you mention, but that will come with time

Same as this, weight wise he's fine just now needs more muscle which you are working on

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Does he always stand like that or did you just catch an awkward moment?

 

[piebaldsparkle]

Does he always stand like that or did you just catch an awkward moment?

I'm wondering the same.

 

[Tash88]

Thank you for the replies so far. I am just a little concerned that his muscles aren't building up as well as they should be, hence asking for some advice. He definitely feels stronger and improved, he just doesn't really look it.

Faracat and Piebaldsparkle - if you were referring to his front legs, he does often stand with them quite far apart, so that would be normal for him. I am not the best at taking photos and he rarely stands still, but I suppose, being honest, that is a typical standing position for him. I would be interested to know your thoughts.

Thanks again, Tash

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I mean the way that his front legs and hind legs are under his tummy - like an elephant standing on a ball. The last horse that I knew who stood like that had hoof problems/pain. Once sorted, that horse stood normally again.

 

[Kallibear]

My very first though was his stance too. It may well just be an unfortunate picture but he looks uncomfortable.

That way of standing is classic in a horse with bilateral heel pain: weight rocked onto his hind end and front legs tucked under so his weight is on his toes. Does he land heel or toe first when he walks? Is he a little slower walking down hill?

 

[thatsmygirl]

That's how my lad use to stand, taking weight of his heels.
Perfect weight

 

[Clava]

My very first though was his stance too. It may well just be an unfortunate picture but he looks uncomfortable.
?

that was my thought too.

his weight looks fine.

 

[thatsmygirl]

Dam phone hadn't finished
Kallibear has said what I was gona say, my lad stood like this and a problem wasn't found until he finally went lame. Toe first landing, heel pain and pedal rotation

 

[Tash88]

He does have a slightly dished near-fore foot - it is just visible in the photo. When he was vetted before purchase he gave a positive flexion test for two strides on that leg, but the vet still passed him. She thought that he would be fine providing that he was shod regularly. It has actually improved in the past year as well, and the farrier is keeping an eye on it.

When walking downhill he is slightly slower, although I am able to push him on. He doesn't shorten his stride to walk downhill. He lands heel first when he walks.

I am having the vet out for flu&tet at the end of Feb so will definitely ask her for more information on possible bilateral heel pain, even though at the moment he is completely sound *touch wood*.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I just though that it would be helpful if I stated what was wrong with the horse that stood in that way - she had laminitis in her hind hooves.

 

[philamena]

I mean the way that his front legs and hind legs are under his tummy - like an elephant standing on a ball. The last horse that I knew who stood like that had hoof problems/pain. Once sorted, that horse stood normally again.

I agree - I'd spend a bit of time looking at how he naturally chooses to stand, on a level surface. It may well be that you just caught him at a funny moment, but I'm now a bit obsessive about looking at how horses stand (cus I'm such a sad sack! )

I will tell you about what we've worked though with my horse, NOT to freak you out or to suggest there's something wrong with your horse, but just because if you find he *does* always stand like that and want to start investigating why, my experience might save you some time working out what it is. Sorry it's a bit of an essay, but it's taken us a while to work it all out! You'll probably find yours never stands like that normally, but you never know, our long and winding journey may be useful to you in some way!

It's something I didn't really notice until I started looking, but my horse had muscular problems along her back, struggled to work over it properly and to develop top line, and she would stand "holding herself" at the back end in a similar way (though not so marked as in this particular pic)... I make her sound like an obvious crock but these were really not obvious problems at all, barely noticeable! After peeling back lots of layers of issues (!) it seems for her to have been a combination of ulcer & hind gut pain interrelating with back muscle spasms (not sure which came first but they then probably exacerbated each other because chronic pain exacerbates ulcers, and sore guts can lead them to hold themselves again the discomfort, causing muscle spasms)...

Also gradually her back feet started to go bullnosed, which it looks like yours might be, though it's difficult to tell from that angle. I've had opinions from vets, osteos, chiros, physios, farriers and barefoot trimmers on whether her hind foot shape is a factor in her known back issues and schools of thought differed on whether the hind foot shape was causing the stance of her hind end because of how the foot was setting up the leg, as it were, and therefore causing the muscle discomfort... or whether the muscle / gut discomfort was causing the foot shape over time because of how she was holding herself meaning she was bearing her weight on the back of her hind feet and they were growing that way. We'll probably never know which came first because these were existing issues from before I bought her, but they certainly interrelated... Again, to reiterate, her issues were very subtle. She was not ulcery in appearance or behaviour, we were out winning dressage because her way of going meant we got away with looking correct when we weren't, and her hind feet are only very VERY subtley not quite perfect to look at.

Also I'd echo Faracat's point about possible foot pain. We've never been able to find foot pain in my girl's hinds, and I think the cause of her issue is further up as I mentioned, but next week she's having her shoes off in the hope that now we've hopefully got her gut and back discomfort sorted, she'll be able to start growing a more correct foot shape, which I don't think she'd do in shoes. I wouldn't be surprised to discover foot pain once they come off, to be honest, that's been masked by the shoes. I really hope not though!

Anyway, as I say, sorry to hit you with all of that. I'm not trying to say there's anything 'wrong' with your boy, it may just be an unusual snapshot, but if anything useful can come out of the long road we've had to sorting the various little things adding up to the beginnings of problems for my girl then I'd rather share it and help someone else get a head start!

He looks like a real sweetie by the way

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Very interesting post Philamena - thanks for writing it.

 

[thatsmygirl]

I agree a great post

 

[Tash88]

Very interesting post Philamena - thanks for writing it.

Agreed - thank you so much for taking the time to write it, I think that I will print it this thread out so that I remember what to ask the vet in Feb. I have to say that I am starting to worry now - Stanley moves (on the face of it) beautifully so it could be that he has a similar way of going to your mare - my dressage trainer thinks that he's wonderful and has never mentioned anything to do with how he is standing, and he is very particular.

I really appreciate that you are trying to help me, if my horse has a problem. I will just keep going how I am and ask the vet about it when I see her, providing that he doesn't go lame in the interim.

Good luck when you take your mare's hind shoes off next week as well,fingers crossed that she stays sound!

 

[philamena]

Thanks guys - took just 5 mins to write but about a year sloooooowly to learn!

Absolutely right Tash, it may well be he's completely fine. I've found it takes a lot of standing and staring to work out what's 'normal' for a horse - ha ha. People on my yard think I'm a bit nuts I think! Most of this stuff I just hadn't noticed, especially when you see them every day, you don't notice changes. But mine's very pretty, a flashy mover and has a naturally nice and rounded warmblood look. She got away with a lot tucking her nose in and looking fabulous, it was only really in teaching her the lateral work that we began to notice she wasn't using herself properly. And as we asked her to do more demanding stuff and she started developing the muscle to cope with it, those muscles weren't really in the right place.

Thanks for your good wishes Let us know how you get on!

 

[AmyMay]

How much roadwork do you do?

 

[Tash88]

I do one or two roadwork sessions a week - they are usually around 30-45 minutes and also involve some hill work. I also do some roadwork one or two days a week as I don't have off-road hacking. Schooling and lunging two or three days a week usually as well.

 

[AmyMay]

You'll get more muscle on the horse by doing more road work.

 

[kirstykate]

What are you feeding?

 

[JHC]

I had a horse that stood very similarly...

But at the same time was working nicely

Over a two year period he gradually got worse. Hooves falling apart (I now do think he had a lot wrong within his hooves that wasn't investigated at the time), sore/tense back, refusing to move forwards, napping, bucking and rearing...

Considering a 6 months before the first photo he looked like this

It turned out he had kissing spines and proximal suspensory damage (and goodness knows what was happening in his hooves).

Now whenever I see that stance, it shouts out pain to me. Yes the horse may be working well but a lot of horses have such a big heart that they will try so hard to work well for you.

 

[coffeeandabagel]

brilliant thread. All this coming from the way he stands - it scares me how much I have to learn.

If I even knew half of what I have learnt in the last 6 months I wouldnt have bought my current horse!

Lets hope this is an easy situation to sort out.

 

[Tash88]

Thank you for the replies. JHC - if you have time, could you tell me a bit more about your horse's story post-diagnosis please? Thank you in advance, I'm actually tempted to get the vet out a bit sooner. At the moment his feet are in very good condition, according to my (reputable and experienced) farrier.

 

[melbiswas]

My 21year old ex eventer started to stand like this last winter. I got the vet to check him out as I thought it looked like painful feet and he put it down to general stiffness from wear and tear. To be fair he stood more normally on that day; they do like to make you look like fibbers /overanxious owners.

He was put on Danilon which did not seem to change his stance or stiffness. Gradually it worsened and he began to lose weight.

Another vet saw him as the weight loss became very dramatic and to cut a long story short he was diagnosed with hind gut problems. As in Philamena's case he was very tender and sensitive over his back end.

The Danilon was stopped, his diet changed etc and he improved dramatically. Not photo savvy to show you the pics but could try once I have cooked tea and pretended to do some housework!

Just thought there were some interesting similarities to Philamena's symptoms/diagnosis to share.

 

[melbiswas]

Forgot to say the conclusion was that it had prob been started by heavy dose of antibiotics given for a persistant abscess (which had been excised in the Summer) and then worsened by the Danilon.

We had noticed him stiffening up and not working over his back as well and put it down to the time he had out of work.

 

[pinklilly]

Mine stands very similar ( much better atm ) he went in to vets with on going one tenth lameness in off hind and came out diagnosed with caudal foot pain in hinds caused by negative pedal bone angle and proximal suspensory damage in all 4 legs.

I find it's more obvious in photo's and tend to take some every few days then I can look back and monitor progress.

 

[nikCscott]

Weightwise looks spot on yes needs muscle but you're working on that so looking forward to next picture

He is stood funny - my new horse was doing this (described it like he was trying to fit all 4 feet into a small square) although it has improve over the last 2 weeks since I bought him it was still a concern- so I called the back guy out today and horse had a slight rotation of the pelvis and a couple of vertebras misaligned these were easily corrected so my hunch that there was some discomfort was correct- not saying that this is why your horse is stood like that as others have said could be a bad moment, but might be worth calling your back person out or start investigating with your vet....

I take loads of pictures of my horses almost daily as I think you spot things better in photos than in really life- both improvement and potential issues. Take pictures as you work on his muscle so you can compare.

Good luck with him he looks lovely such a beautiful head!

This was mine this morning. (Yes he too needs muscle and a bit of weight- only had 2 weeks and the improvement so far is huge- I'm just showing picture to illustrate the stance that worried me)

 

[JHC]

Thank you for the replies. JHC - if you have time, could you tell me a bit more about your horse's story post-diagnosis please? Thank you in advance, I'm actually tempted to get the vet out a bit sooner. At the moment his feet are in very good condition, according to my (reputable and experienced) farrier.

Just PM'd you