How lame is too lame for retired horse?

I have two wonkies, the 5 year old did it messing about in the field, and is lame and painful with weight on her back. No weight and she's sound and has some very fancy footwork! The 14yo lad I bought as a companion already retired due to navicular. Turns out there's a hell of a lot more going on with him, and the fat he's lost was actually hiding a lot of muscular atrophy and a fracture callous across his withers... He was dosed on Bute to be kept hunting until that didn't work any more, then he came to me. I have him on NoBute, as he will not touch anything with Bute in is he can smell it (wonder if he associates the smell with remembered pain, as he also sweats and breathes heavy when he smells it?), and he has physio every 8 weeks. He's quite happy, he's actually at a stage now of having a hoon and a bronc with the girl when the mood takes him, and he can shift! I'm very prepared to call it a day when he says it's time, I'm hoping it's not for a while yet though as he's coming out of his shell and moving so much better than when he arrives 18 months ago. I may speak to the vet at some point about alternatives pain relief if he looks like he needs it, but I've had others on low dose Bute for years to be comfortable with no adverse effects
 
I’d block the leg and x-ray hoof if it blocks to the hoof. Just to rule out laminitis. Probably blood test for ems and cushings also. If all clear and something higher up, I would bute and evaluate again at next physio. If still tight and uncomfortable on Bute would pts. If improved, carry on until that changes.
 
maya2008 said:
I’d block the leg and x-ray hoof if it blocks to the hoof. Just to rule out laminitis. Probably blood test for ems and cushings also. If all clear and something higher up, I would bute and evaluate again at next physio. If still tight and uncomfortable on Bute would pts. If improved, carry on until that changes.
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Thanks for replying. I think it's a good idea to do nerve blocks. My guess is it's in the hoof or pastern and has been brewing for good while. Interestingly, the frog on that front foot is noticeably weaker than the other one. I'm not sure what that means though! Hoof tested her and she doesn't seem to have an abscess. I don't think she has thrush and certainly my excellent trimmer has not suggested thrush. Vet coming on Tuesday.
 
Marigold4 said:
Thanks for replying. I think it's a good idea to do nerve blocks. My guess is it's in the hoof or pastern and has been brewing for good while. Interestingly, the frog on that front foot is noticeably weaker than the other one. I'm not sure what that means though! Hoof tested her and she doesn't seem to have an abscess. I don't think she has thrush and certainly my excellent trimmer has not suggested thrush. Vet coming on Tuesday.
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Look at the opposite hind to the "bad" hoof. If it's been a long term issue the opposite hind will show changes [from bearing more load].
 
Marigold4 said:
What sort of changes would I be looking for please?
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So if the off fore has a smaller underdeveloped frog and is slightly more upright you'd expect to near hind to be flatter, have a big frog and perhaps some flare.

I had a mare who'd had surgery on off fore pastern. The near fore and hind got flatter from compensating and her off fore more upright.

Current gelding has slightly smaller frog off fore and flatter near hind. Vet, physio, trimmer can't find any reason but there will be an underlying reason. He's sound so not an issue, for me it's just something to be aware of when assessing and evaluating him and how he moves.
 
TPO said:
So if the off fore has a smaller underdeveloped frog and is slightly more upright you'd expect to near hind to be flatter, have a big frog and perhaps some flare.

I had a mare who'd had surgery on off fore pastern. The near fore and hind got flatter from compensating and her off fore more upright.

Current gelding has slightly smaller frog off fore and flatter near hind. Vet, physio, trimmer can't find any reason but there will be an underlying reason. He's sound so not an issue, for me it's just something to be aware of when assessing and evaluating him and how he moves.
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Thanks. I'll have a look tonight and maybe take some photos.
 
UPDATE: the vet was out today. Horse is sore in both fronts, and hoof tests sore at the toe but not elsewhere. We xrayed her feet and she has a moderate amount of navicular changes but no sign of any laminitis. We are going to put her in hoof boots for a while, put her on bute and see how it goes. She was so well-behaved for the whole thing and enjoyed the attention! I wonder what caused the navicular - she has never been shod and only briefly in work.
 
Marigold4 said:
UPDATE: the vet was out today. Horse is sore in both fronts, and hoof tests sore at the toe but not elsewhere. We xrayed her feet and she has a moderate amount of navicular changes but no sign of any laminitis. We are going to put her in hoof boots for a while, put her on bute and see how it goes. She was so well-behaved for the whole thing and enjoyed the attention! I wonder what caused the navicular - she has never been
shod and only briefly in work.
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I think navicular charges can occur when they carry themselves in a compensatory manner? My first heart breaker had navicular, a year later found he had horrendous kissing spines, if she has an old injury perhaps she is compensating and it’s causing it? It has been years since I’ve dealt with navicular so I’m not up to date with the ideas!

She’s very lucky to have landed with you bless her! Personally I had a sick note (see above) and I rehabbed him from ulcers, navicular, kissing spines, suspensory ligament, hock arthritis over the course of his 5 years he ended up just being my pet and I rode him maybe 6 times after the initial navicular diagnosis. I called it quits when my vet came to see us for a new issue involving him throwing himself over if I used a head collar which was extremely out of character for him, and she just hugged me instead of suggesting any diagnostics and brought up something I’d asked her when she diagnosed his KS which was to always be honest and tell me when she thought it was enough. Heartbreaking as he was 12. He was already on bute twice a day for maintenance, herbal options didn’t work for him years before. Based on my experience I did wait 6 months to long in hindsight and I regret he was unhappy for a bit too long. But as long as they are happy, grazing, exhibiting natural social behaviours, and you can financially and emotionally support her? Nothing wrong with letting her live on with your support. When the discomfort is chronic ie every phiso it’s getting worse, behaviour starts to change and she doesn’t respond to bute it’s time to let go. But that being said you’ve done very well by this horse and no one would blame you if you drew the line, you’ve given her the greatest gift of all already by taking responsibility and care for her. 😘
 
4Hoofed said:
I think navicular charges can occur when they carry themselves in a compensatory manner? My first heart breaker had navicular, a year later found he had horrendous kissing spines, if she has an old injury perhaps she is compensating and it’s causing it? It has been years since I’ve dealt with navicular so I’m not up to date with the ideas!

She’s very lucky to have landed with you bless her! Personally I had a sick note (see above) and I rehabbed him from ulcers, navicular, kissing spines, suspensory ligament, hock arthritis over the course of his 5 years he ended up just being my pet and I rode him maybe 6 times after the initial navicular diagnosis. I called it quits when my vet came to see us for a new issue involving him throwing himself over if I used a head collar which was extremely out of character for him, and she just hugged me instead of suggesting any diagnostics and brought up something I’d asked her when she diagnosed his KS which was to always be honest and tell me when she thought it was enough. Heartbreaking as he was 12. He was already on bute twice a day for maintenance, herbal options didn’t work for him years before. Based on my experience I did wait 6 months to long in hindsight and I regret he was unhappy for a bit too long. But as long as they are happy, grazing, exhibiting natural social behaviours, and you can financially and emotionally support her? Nothing wrong with letting her live on with your support. When the discomfort is chronic ie every phiso it’s getting worse, behaviour starts to change and she doesn’t respond to bute it’s time to let go. But that being said you’ve done very well by this horse and no one would blame you if you drew the line, you’ve given her the greatest gift of all already by taking responsibility and care for her. 😘
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Thank you! She has the loveliest nature. She is a half sister to Future Gravitas and VERY beautiful. I'm disappointed not to be able to ride her but love looking after her. Let's hope our plan works and she feels less sore soon.
 
Marigold4 said:
Thank you! She has the loveliest nature. She is a half sister to Future Gravitas and VERY beautiful. I'm disappointed not to be able to ride her but love looking after her. Let's hope our plan works and she feels less sore soon.
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UPDATE: vet has been again and she has had a basic lameness work up. She is inconsistently 2/10s lame on fronts when lunged on a small circle on a relatively hard surface and after flexions. Vet felt she wasn't lame enough to make nerve blocks useful as a diagnostic tool. She feels pretty sure it is the navicular changes noted on the xrays last time that are the issue, as well as thin soles. She is to have a series of Cartophen injections and I am to start her on Boswellia and see if that helps. Vet doesn't think she is lame enough yet to warrant anymore than that - she is likely to get worse so we will still have injections into the joint available if and when that happens. I'll keep putting on the hoof hardener and using hoofboots to counteract soft soles.

Just updating in case anyone else finds themselves in the same situation. Info on treatment plan might be useful.
 
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