How many bute a day is acceptable? - Am I being selfish?

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moneypit1

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Fly (as you may know if you have followed my posts) has severe high Ringbone. He is permaently lame atm and is now on 3 bute a day to no avail. I would say his lamness is almost un-noticeable in walk but very clear in trot (which he is quite reluctant to do). He has had the joint medicated twice (without much success) and an op to de-nerve will not go ahead as his ringbone is too high on the pastern. He is only just 15 years old and much loved. In himself he is fine out in the field to a point but still lame. In the stable he is grumpy, shifting from one front leg to the other. His other front leg shows significant ringbone too but as yet he is not lame on it. His arthritis has got rapidly worsened over 7 months and this shows clearly on the x-rays. Would it be so selfish of me to keep him like this knowing that he is getting worse week by week? In himself he seems fine when he is at grass but I hate to see him limping along. My question is how many bute/danilon is 'acceptable'? When do I stop, 4,5,6? I am beginning to think that now is the time to have him pts but keep whimping out week after week. Sorry to keep boring you all with the "Fly Boy Problem" x
 
I don't know about how many bute you can safely give to a horse every day, but extended use is not recommended as it has an accumulative effect which can lead to further complications.

For this kind of advice, I would speak to your vet.
 
It does sound as though you might be approaching decision time. *hugs* because it is not easy to do, especially when they are so young.
Have a good chat with your vet about it, they are the ones that will have seen many horses in a similar condition and will be able to make a comparison to how Fly is doing.
But if he is reluctant to trot and shifting weight etc then something needs to be done, either upping pain control or exploring the alternative.
 
NeilM said:
I don't know about how many bute you can safely give to a horse every day, but extended use is not recommended as it has an accumulative effect which can lead to further complications.

For this kind of advice, I would speak to your vet.
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Thank you, I have. Fly is on Danilon and he can have 6 a day as tbh he won't be around long enough for any serious side effects to show. His ringbone will make the decision for me probably within the next 6 months. What I really wanted opinions on was the fact that should I let him go now, before it gets to that stage? I wish I knew how much discomfort he was in, animals are so stoical aren't they.
 
Am I being selfish?

Horrid situation and I really feel for you, but being blunt, yes, you are.

He's in pain all the time going by what you have written, you suspect it's the right time really, it's the best and worst of being an owner, we are their god and have the ultimate say over their well being. Ironically, doing the best thing we can for them is the very hardest in many cases.

Do not, ever, feel guilty about making the decision to end his pain, it is a pity that we, as humane beings, can't do it legally for our own kind. A horse, I truly believe, has no sense of "today is the day then" they don't know anything other than they have a mouthful of perhaps forbidden treats.
 
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I am beginning to think that now is the time to have him pts but keep whimping out week after week
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Your post here is quite different from what you posted a fortnight ago.

To be blunt, I would have him put down Monday.

((((( )))))
 
Hmm, tricky one. Personally if he were mine I would give him the summer in the field and then maybe think about the alternative. If a horse is lame it is in pain. You know your horse but to be on 3 or 4 butes a day long term is quite a high dose, especially if you dont think it is helping.

However for what it's worth, the hard ground is not helping anyhorse at the moment, let alone those with injuries.
 
Personally if he were mine I would give him the summer in the field and then maybe think about the alternative.
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I'm curious, and not trying to start an argument, but why would you allow this horse to continue in pain throughout the summer TicTac??
 
Honestly? 3 bute a day is quite a lot and much more than horses working on a "maintenance" does require, leaving aside whether you approve of that or not. If that amount isn't really touching it, I'd say you have quite a significant problem. :( The fact that it is progressing so quickly is also a concern. Does your vet think it will fuse? What is the prognosis for his comfort and movement if it does? And are you really willing to put him through the time that might take?

Obviously a vet is the one you really need to speak to but I'd afraid my experience is ringbone in front is a particularly difficult one to manage - hind end problems, such as spavins, can be easier to keep under control, from a pain perspective, because they are not as involved in weigh bearing and the horse can limit the amount of pressure it puts on the joint. It can't really limit the time is spends standing up. Also, even though he is not obviously lame on the other leg, it may only be that the worse leg is so much worse he doesn't have an option. Have you blocked out the "bad" leg?

Absolutely, speak to your vet. But remember it's not your vet's mandate to TELL you what to do, only to provide you with the various pieces of information. You shouldn't put him/her in the position of making an ultimate decision for you and, indeed, most vets will shy away from doing so. This makes people feel the vet is "in favour" of continuing on when really, they are only telling you in their professional view of what the options entail. Their personal view might be different but unless you have a very close relationship with your vet he/she might be understandably wary of offering an opinion.

If the question is "now" or "later" . . . well, I think the horse is giving you his opinion if he's grumpy and obviously in pain. He's no less in pain out in a field and high level of NSAIDs have their own dangers and discomforts. I have a feeling you know the answer. Honestly, he doesn't care if he's in the field for the summer or not, it would only be for you. And if the ground stays hard it will be an even less pleasant option for him. If he's comfortable, there's no harm. If you can't keep him comfortable . . . sorry, an awful decision to have to make but it sounds like you've already made it.
 
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amymay said:
Your post here is quite different from what you posted a fortnight ago.

To be blunt, I would have him put down Monday.

((((( )))))
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I know, he seems to have got worse quite quickly. Sometimes I look at him and think he's not too bad, he seems happy enough and then I see him limping along. I am speaking to my vet later today about it all again. It's just when I see him grazing in the sunshine I think 'oh, he's ok, he seems quite happy', and then when he trots he is lame. I guess I have to do the deed for his sake. Thanks for your replies everyone, it is so bloody difficult when you just do not want to let them go. x
 
moneypit1 said:
I know, he seems to have got worse quite quickly. Sometimes I look at him and think he's not too bad, he seems happy enough and then I see him limping along. I am speaking to my vet later today about it all again. It's just when I see him grazing in the sunshine I think 'oh, he's ok, he seems quite happy', and then when he trots he is lame. I guess I have to do the deed for his sake. Thanks for your replies everyone, it is so bloody difficult when you just do not want to let them go. x
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You really, really do have my heartfelt sympathies. Seeing them look ok grazing etc. you can't imagine that you are considering the things you are.

Just remember, a day to soon is better than a day too late.
 
Tarrsteps, 3 bute is a fair bit I guess, though he is a big so and so! The thing is, I keep thinking is he in pain or discomfort? I keep thinking that my stepdad has arthritis in his leg and limps but he says he is used to it and it is nagging discomfort rather than pain. I know this is different but I need to be sure I am doing the right thing. My vet says that only I can make the decision as I know him best but I don't know, not really. One thing I know is that he will not go through another winter comfortably so should I deal with it now rather than let him get worse, which he will, or should I let him have the summer, albeit it buted up. I think I will have to let him go. Sorry to keep gong around in circles, I am so confused with it all so bear with my ramblings.
 
We were in almost an identical situation this time last year and were looking at a lovely summer and pts in the autumn. He was coping very well. Almost overnight he went hoping lame, looked sad and the bute did not touch him. He was 12 but with severe hind leg, SI and collateral ligament problems. We got some metacam and some fynadine(sp) and gave him 3 more really fab days with the sun on him being spoilt to death. He looked amazing being pain free and so happy and it was hard to pts but we did. My lovely vet was very supportive. Could you do something similar? Get some seriously good painkiller for a very very limited time so you can say goodbye? (((hugs))) it is so hard I know but I think it sounds as if his time has come.
 
amymay said:
You really, really do have my heartfelt sympathies. Seeing them look ok grazing etc. you can't imagine that you are considering the things you are.

Just remember, a day to soon is better than a day too late.
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Totally agree with Amymay and we both have had to make this decision in the past. Big hugs to you and Fly and hope you manage to come to a decision sooner rather than later for both of your sakes.
 
Poor you. You "know" don't you. I got tears in my eyes just reading your posts. I've been there and so have lots of other people on here. Give your boy a big kiss, say thanks for being the best and try and keep your chin up - you will feel better eventually xx
 
I can only comment if that was myself in the same situation and I'm sorry to say I'd have to let the horse go, if he requires that amout of bute on a daily basis and is still obviously in pain and lame he's not leading a normal life or even a healthy retirement.

Very much feel for you however (((hugs))).
 
Having had to pts my horse 2 weeks ago i thought nothing could be worse. However from reading post about people having to make the decision and choose the day i realise it could have been! Realy feel for you, be strong, youll know deep down when its time. xxx
 
Unless I've missed something, we don't know if this is a shetland or a shire!! 3 a day for shetland - very high. 3 a day for shire fairly low!!
 
God, I do feel for you as 15 isn't really old and i think that is what does make it harder especially when they seem ok in themselves. To be honest, I think if a horse needs more than say 2 bute/danilon a day for a prolonged period then it is not good. I am the first to want to give the horse as long as possible and i would keep the horse out 24/7 - I would not want to stable an arthritic horse at all really. However, when it gets to the stage where they cannot really stand comfortably then that is when there is not much more you can do. Also, if worse in one leg than the other he will favour that leg and that could then cause problems (abscesses/laminitis) in the other foot and really you would not want to let it get to that stage.

Ultimately only you can decide and I suggest you have a really good, long talk with your vet even if just to confirm to you that you have done all you can. People can say all they want on this forum but do not actually know the horse and cannot say what is fright or wrong, they can only advise. I am the worst for wanting to save everything but at some point you do have to realise when enough is enough.

I am sorry you are in this position.
 
aimsymc said:
Having had to pts my horse 2 weeks ago i thought nothing could be worse. However from reading post about people having to make the decision and choose the day i realise it could have been! Realy feel for you, be strong, youll know deep down when its time. xxx
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I, too, had my beloved boy PTS two weeks ago, and I so feel for you. Its an awful decision to make, and hurts like hell. My old lad, when he had the painkiller, looked absolutely wonderful, just like he used to be, as my lovely vet put it " you'll have your old Bob back for a while", but as it wore off, and the pain and discomfort started coming back, I KNEW I couldn't put him through anymore. Admittedly it was colic, and he was 29, a different scenario, but he had been so well up to then, and you DO cling to hope, I know. I'm sure you'll know when to let go, and my heart goes out to you. Like aimsymc says, be strong, thinking of you xx
 
I personally would have him pts now.
A couple of years ago, my 25 y.o who had arthritis started to look miserable and when I got him in one day and he couldn't put his head down to eat, I knew it was time. (I would add, that he went downhill very quickly, from a horse that cantered around the field for fun to within a week, a horse that couldn't put his head down)

When I spoke to my vet I told him that I'd wanted William to have one last summer.
His reply was that a lot of owners say that but in his opinion summers are nothing special. The ground is rock hard, the weather too hot and the horse is plagued with flies so why do humans think the summer is so great!

I'd never thought about it like that before but I think he was right.
 
Agree with Amymay completely, he has absolutely no quality of life.

For me, even one bute a day forever is one too many; like us, no horse should ever need permanent painkillers to not be sore; to give more to an animal is just to shut your eyes to their pain. I'm sorry, never a nice call to make but one that should be made in the best interests of the animal IMHO.
 
moneypit1 said:
I keep thinking that my stepdad has arthritis in his leg and limps but he says he is used to it and it is nagging discomfort rather than pain..
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The thing is when people have leg pain they can spend a lot of time sitting or lying down to relieve the pain, but that is not the case for a horse. :(
 
It's your decision so don't be swayed by posts on here and listen to your vet (and your head) instead.
BUT if he were my horse I would make the arrangements, fill him with apples, carrots and big hugs for a hour before then let him slip away at home with a kind vet doing the necessary.
Sorry it's hard for you :-(
 
As an owner I know only to well how we can keep kidding ourselves that things aren't so bad for our animal -and then all of a sudden several things crop up at once and they have to go on and then you wonder whether you were selfish or not in keeping them for those extra/days/weeks/months.

Personally I would have him euthanised. He is not going to get better only worse and the hard ground will not help him
 
Mitchyden said:
His reply was that a lot of owners say that but in his opinion summers are nothing special. The ground is rock hard, the weather too hot and the horse is plagued with flies so why do humans think the summer is so great!

I'd never thought about it like that before but I think he was right.
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Sorry to emphasise, given the nature of the discussion, but this is a very good point. Horses, in general, are not built to enjoy very warm weather (they deal with cold more effectively) and flies can be an absolute nightmare for a horse in pain because it's forced by the flies to move and stamp regardless of how uncomfortable that might be. Also, horses that lose mobility are then prone to all sorts of other problems. And the last thing you want is to be dealing with the day the horse goes down and can't get up or goes down somewhere you can't get to him easily. :(

As discussed, only you can know what's best for you and your horse. So much depends on the situation. But remember, he doesn't know what you're plotting and he's not worrying about the future, he's just living in the now and the now is uncomfortable. So if you can make him comfortable and it makes you happy to do that for a bit, have at it. But try to make a plan for when you will make the eventual decision, don't depend on a crisis to make it for you.
 
Don't be in a rush to PTS. My husband's HW hunter - then 19 - was diagnosed with high articular ringbone 4 years ago. Veterinary prognosis was 'guarded'. I did the following:

1. Put him on Riaflex Complete (he'd previously been on Cortaflex.)
2. Put him on SIX Danilon a day and worked him as normal.
3. Got farrier to shoe him with 'heels' - to help him stepping through.

After 5 weeks on this regime he felt sound as a pound and had reverted to bucking at the start of the gallops, so I started cutting down the Danilon! He stayed sound!

He has hunted for the last 3 years - one day a week - on one Danilon a day - and his Riaflex.

I suspect - now he's 23 - we might have to up the Danilon to 2 a day during the next hunting season - and 'save' the old boy for the easier days. I DON'T let him down during the summer - he is hacked daily 6 days a week. And he has a BIG stable with rubber mats!

I should add that Bruno is a 17hh HW. I'd be happy for him to have up to 4 Danilon a day if necessary - at 23, it's about QUALITY of life - not extending life (and he SO loves his hunting!)
 
JanetGeorge said:
Don't be in a rush to PTS. My husband's HW hunter - then 19 - was diagnosed with high articular ringbone 4 years ago. Veterinary prognosis was 'guarded'. I did the following:

1. Put him on Riaflex Complete (he'd previously been on Cortaflex.)
2. Put him on SIX Danilon a day and worked him as normal.
3. Got farrier to shoe him with 'heels' - to help him stepping through.

After 5 weeks on this regime he felt sound as a pound and had reverted to bucking at the start of the gallops, so I started cutting down the Danilon! He stayed sound!

He has hunted for the last 3 years - one day a week - on one Danilon a day - and his Riaflex.

I suspect - now he's 23 - we might have to up the Danilon to 2 a day during the next hunting season - and 'save' the old boy for the easier days. I DON'T let him down during the summer - he is hacked daily 6 days a week. And he has a BIG stable with rubber mats!

I should add that Bruno is a 17hh HW. I'd be happy for him to have up to 4 Danilon a day if necessary - at 23, it's about QUALITY of life - not extending life (and he SO loves his hunting!)
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Interesting point about the Riaflex. It seems about a million times better most of the joint supplements on the market.

I know you said you've tried the joint injections and they didn't work but has he had Tildren? My pony had that for spavins. It's a drug they give through a drip and it helps with bone regeneration. You can have a course of a couple if the first one works although it is quite expensive it worked really well for us.
It was about £500 a treatment.

Janet, I think you are talking a lot of sense about the bute.
 
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