How many colics is too many?

[SEL]

Does being on a track mean all hay and no grass? Is that because of EMS?

Hay is very bulky and the culprit of the ones where I've been walking around praying for poo - although that was with a poor drinker.

I wouldn't (& didn't!) PTS because of those but I did look at ways of getting more liquid in when hay needed to be the bulk of the diet at that moment. I did PTS due to his arthritis sadly before last winter.

 

[Birker2020]

Mine used to get them reguarly, at least every week when she first moved to the yard she was at almost since I owned her.All the colics at that time were spasmodic gassy colic caused by the grass and it was more noticeable after a period of rain and then mild conditions, although this wasn't always the case. It was easy remedied by giving her two or three bute in a feed (she would always eat a small feed) and putting her on the walker for 20 mins, back in the stable and watching to see if it got worse which it never did.

I must state that after the first half dozen calls to the vet with subsequent 'emergency' visits the above treatment was on vets advice. She never got scoped but one vet did suggest gastric ulcers could have been the issue but the vet partner disagreed - he said she was too fat and too 'well' to have them (which was the general thought back in 2010, obviously things have moved on since then and we now know this is not the case at all). It was an ex dairy farm and the grass was quite rich so we think this was the cause although it can be caused by multiple issues.

Then around 2014 she got a colic that was different to all the others, I walked her round the outdoor school and she kept getting down to roll. I knew this was completely outside the range of her gassy colics and that it was serious so the vet was out within 30 mins. It turned out she had left nephrosplenic entrapment also called left dorsal displacement of the large colon where the colin gets trapped between the spleen ligament and the gut wall. She was 'cured' by loads of left hand lunging, tubing, and pain relief and that was it for about two years. Then on a different yard she displayed the same symtoms although her heart rate and her resps were through the roof, this time I thought I would loose her, she was 17 by then.

Anyway the vet came out four times over a three day peroid, repeatedly tubed her and we gave her loads of left handed lunging as this is the best thing to shrink the spleen and when she was deemed 'safe' the vet told me to take her out for a bumpy trailer ride, so when you spend half your life looking to avoid pot holes and other bumps in the road I spent 20 mins twice that week looking for them!

If the colon hadn't gone back down then as a last resort we would have had to give her an injection of phenylephrine but this could bring on a fatal arrhythmia in a horse who had second degree heart block as she did so it would have really been a last resort. The vet reckoned she had a colon that sat higher than most horses and due to the gas from the grass it pushed it up into the space it shouldn't have gone, her shape being typical of WB breeding also meant she was the ideal barrel shaped size which also predisposed her as it can most WB's . Some horses who repeatedly get this can have the space closed somehow - not sure how, a fellow liveries horse was a candidate for this as he had it three times and was having this surgery, not sure what happened in the end.

In the remaining 5 years of her life she rarely colicked, I could probably count the number of times on one hand and although I took each one more seriously I felt relieved that she never got another displacement By then I had decided to give her very sloppy feeds and I used to scrub her water bucket in the field every second or third day in the summer, a practice I maintained with my next horse. I also strip grazed her quite vigorously (shhh don't tell the postage stamped paddock size brigade but sometimes we have to do these things).

I wouldn't have had her pts though. It didn't seem necessary, she was perfectly healthy other than the colics.

OP from experience gained personally, I would thoroughly recommend you scrub your water container in the field out replacing the water at least twice a week, there is little benefit pouring fresh on top of old water and old water can be a cause of colic. The same with your water buckets, a proper scrub everyday, I always found it incredible on a previous yard, when seeing other peoples water buckets in the washroom how they would have a layer of grey scum on the bottom! They wouldn't want their water bottles or drinking glasses to have the same, why would their horses want this too??

I would also strip graze if that is possible. I would also ensure you give plenty of sloppy feeds, maybe ask the vet if you can put her on a pre and probiotic, I think Protexin was the one I used, an initial small treatment over a few days followed by something else on maintenance was what the vet recommended from memory, the maintenance was pink powder. Also if your horse is diagnosed each time with the same colic type ask if the horse can be given bute and put on the walker or led around and monitored before calling them out, although I would stress that this would only be 'safe' if you are sure the colic is the same gassy colic, but ask the vet first. But like I did, you soon know if its something more serious.

Finally ensure you worm for redworm as this can be a major cause of colic.

 

[Julia0803]

I wouldn't put my horse through colic surgery, personally. But I have, and would continue to medically treat colic.

For the first 7 years of ownership, he never colicked once, and happily dealt with things that I think would now bring on colic.

He has colicked 4/5 times since 2020. All had a clear cause. Two were due to impactions (where I tried to let him have ad lib hay whilst on restricted turn out. He had no off switch and just ate till he nearly popped). The other 2/3 are similar in relation to his lack of self regulation, but were gassy colics... where he either got his muzzle off and stuffed himself silly, or my stupid error where I thought he would be ok without his muzzle on and he wasn't.

All were treated quickly and easily with Bute and buscopan, and walking every hour or so for several hours. I think he had one dose of liquids tubed for the impactions, but it was just the once on the yard. To be honest, the last one probably could have been treated without the vet, but when it started it was 3pm and I thought I'd rather not risk it, plus the out of hours call out etc. His 'tell' that he has colic is he lies down in his stable when there are people busy on the yard - something very unusual for him, and he doesn't immediately dive into his hay he just looks a bit quiet. The one where I had taken his muzzle off, the yard owner called me as it was in the middle of the day and she said he was stood in the field not grazing. He didn't look distressed/rolling or anything, but didn't have his head down.

Obviously I very much hope it doesn't happen again this winter, but if it does I wouldn't hesitate to treat him. It happens once or twice a year, and is easily resolved. Whilst he is clearly uncomfortable at the time, it passes within a few hours without any major interventions. I've been lucky that they have all been very minor - the vet joked with one of the muzzle related incidents that he looked like most people after their Christmas dinner- feeling too full and like he needed to undue his trouser buttons!

I did ask the vet why in his late middle age (he's 17 now) he has clearly become more sensitive to things that previously never caused an issue. She didn't really have an answer, she suggested that possibly his digestive system isn't as efficient as in his youth but that we'd probably never know, just to be careful with things that now seem to trigger him.

 

[Clodagh]

Why would you call it a day? Is the pony old or not worth it

Having just lost my horse to colic after successful colic surgery , confused by your post!

Unlike you to be nasty.
Maybe badly worded?

 

[Barton Bounty]

Unlike you to be nasty.
Maybe badly worded?

Not nasty, maybe hit a nerve just confused why OP would be considering PTS with minor occasional colic

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

We have had coliky horses here and I have lost 3 to it. Yours is not coliking very often, my pony was coliking weekly till we found she had IBD


All you can do is be careful with diet and bedding, in your shoes I would :

1. Get some colikare on standby
2. make sure feed is wet and maybe add some oil in.
3. Wet the hay or haylage
4. don't use hay/haylage too course
5. Use a bedding they won't eat
6. wait an hour before riding /or after
7. Make sure it isn't something like IBD
8. Make sure teeth are checked on regular
9. Make sure horse is not eating sticks or branches from the field.
10. Don't let them have colic water after exercise
11. Worming up to date
12. Not eating or linking mud/tree bark
13. Nor gorging on the grass

Really until you narrow it down to the cause it is hard to advise. Maybe keep a diary of any changes prior to the colic

 

[Birker2020]

Not nasty, maybe hit a nerve just confused why OP would be considering PTS with minor occasional colic

I am confused about this too. Surely you just go with the flow??

Personally BB and I hope you don't mind me saying this, but I would not put any horse of mine through colic surgery either but FWIW I don't blame you for wanting to do that for BB, its incredibly hard to make such a decision. In the past I have spoken to a vet about it at length and decided by the end of the conversation it would for me always be a no. I didn't think it was fair to put that on you when we were discussing a potential colic operation for BB when he was a the vets hospital as it had to be your decision alone and I didn't want to sway you in anyway. x

 

[Old school]

Had a mare colic with ‘ idiopathic focal eosinophilia enteritis’. It is caused by water borne bacteria that sits in puddles, dirty/rarely used drinkers etc. backing up the post above about cleaning buckets etc. It apparently is more prevalent along the Liverpool/Dublin line of country… according to vet.
She had surgery and made a full recovery.

 

[Barton Bounty]

I am confused about this too. Surely you just go with the flow??

Personally BB and I hope you don't mind me saying this, but I would not put any horse of mine through colic surgery either but FWIW I don't blame you for wanting to do that for BB, its incredibly hard to make such a decision. In the past I have spoken to a vet about it at length and decided by the end of the conversation it would for me always be a no. I didn't think it was fair to put that on you when we were discussing a potential colic operation for BB when he was a the vets hospital as it had to be your decision alone and I didn't want to sway you in anyway. x

No, and i appreciate your decision too, BB survived the colic operation @Birker2020 that was not the problem, the problem was afterwards when his blood stopped clotting, BB was a very special case they removed two masses from his colon, it was not just a simple ‘colon surgery’ he had, if it was he would be bounding about in a field right now

But OP isn’t exactly having regular colic episodes are they?

They are few and far between they have not even been in the same year!


Im out too annoyed now

 

[Birker2020]

Had a mare colic with ‘ idiopathic focal eosinophilia enteritis’. It is caused by water borne bacteria that sits in puddles, dirty/rarely used drinkers etc. backing up the post above about cleaning buckets etc. It apparently is more prevalent along the Liverpool/Dublin line of country… according to vet.
She had surgery and made a full recovery.

Wow that is fascinating. I can't understand why fresh water is plonked on top of sitting, warm and possibly stagnant water, never have been able to get my head round it. I know its a pain to cart fresh water to your paddock, but surely its as important as stuff like a correct saddle fit, regular shoeing pattern or making sure your horse has enough fibre in its diet.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

My first post was not responded to so I will repeat say in your shoes if he has another episode get bloods done that's what I did and it showed an infection always worth considering, when horses don't feel right they often don't drink enough so cause an impaction.

I probably wouldn't put an older horse through colic either and I wouldn't always do it with certain young horses, the after care is tough on them so for me it would totally depend on the individual horse.

 

[Bellaboo18]

I'll admit, I'm confused as well.
I opened the thread thinking it'd be an interesting discussion about how many *regular* colics it would take to consider pts when the cause couldn't be found but there was over a year between this horses first 2 colics

 

[Birker2020]

No, and i appreciate your decision too, BB survived the colic operation @Birker2020 that was not the problem, the problem was afterwards when his blood stopped clotting, BB was a very special case they removed two masses from his colon, it was not just a simple ‘colon surgery’ he had, if it was he would be bounding about in a field right now

But OP isn’t exactly having regular colic episodes are they?

They are few and far between they have not even been in the same year!


Im out too annoyed now

Don't get annoyed BB, I understand why you feel like you do but OP is overly worried about something that we can see is not really an issue. There's so much pressure on people to 'do the right thing' these days and people who don't or make mistakes get bitterly criticised for making that mistake. So people tend to go to the other end of the spectrum now for fear of reproach and are hyper sensitive in case they are 'called out' for not taking action.

OP don't worry, as you can see from the number of replies, you are doing fine. Just keep monitoring and maybe doing some of the suggestions to see if you can see what works best, you might find there is a weather pattern, or a feed pattern, or a stress pattern. But sometimes, sadly colic just 'happens' and no reason can ever be found.

 

[Birker2020]

I'll admit, I'm confused as well.
I opened the thread thinking it'd be an interesting discussion about how many *regular* colics it would take to consider pts when the cause couldn't be found but there was over a year between this horses first 2 colics

She's just overly concerned about 'doing the right thing'. Sadly a reflection on society as a whole to call out those who make genuine mistakes and persecute them. Not just horses either, happens in all walks of life.

 

[Barton Bounty]

.

 

[Aperchristmas]

It seems to me that the OP is understandably worried about her horse getting colic. Despite good management, the horse has had colic 3 times after all. I would also be worried as you never know when an episode could be a bad one - sadly it's part & parcel of owning horses. It's not a weird line of thinking - how much worse would this get before I need to make a horrible decision. It's the same thought process we went through when we had a large horse have an unexpected severe case of laminitis. He was very closely managed for the rest of his life and thankfully, we avoided a reoccurrence but you can be damn sure we had wondered about the various possibilities that could happen and how we would try to manage (or not). Personally I don't find this line of thinking to be unusual.

OP - in your shoes I would continue as you are and try not to worry too much. The only management related question I can think of right now would be the same as SEL's: if your horse is on a track livery do they have constant access to forage? If not, that may explain why your horse gets occasional bouts of colic.

 

[AdorableAlice]

My horse would be dead now if I had decided many colic episodes were too many.

Many highly experienced and respected vets treated her, a top hospital for which she had a day pass and a fan club with the staff as they saw her so frequently. Her details were never taken when she arrived at the hospital (normally in the middle of the night of course), she was greeted by her name as she came off the lorry, they all knew her so well. The cost - well lets not go there, well into 5 figures. The value of the horse in £ ?, very little, the value to me, priceless.

Impaction x 1 caused by lack of fluids, gas x at least 8, cause unknown initially but after the above mentioned many vets and many admissions it seemed that lack of forage going through colon and imbalance in hind gut was the culprit. This nightmare of colic sessions lasted 3 years, an extensive diary was kept. The weather, length of time at grass, type of grass, time of year, type of exercise, hard feed, number of poos, consistency of said poo etc etc. No indicative pattern came out of the diary. At one point the hospital wanted to open her and have a look, my own vet advised against this and I was also against it, we both thought it was still a medical colic problem. She was scoped several times, belly tap, ultra sound etc, on the final visit she was found to have grade 1 to 2 ulcers and was treated.

Today we are 6 months on since the last displaced colon and admittance into her her own reserved room at the hospital. The management change has been a change in feeding forage to 40% barley straw and 60% meadow hay to ensure the colon is full at all time which holds it down. Minimal starch and sugars are fed and grazing, whilst it is still in abundance is limited to 1 hour each end of the day. Exercised every day. I now have a fit, slim and happy horse, and hopefully, long may that last.

On the last discharge note was a simple instruction 'keep the mare eating long forage at all times' .

I would never have given up on this mare and I am so glad I didn't.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

It is horrible having that worry that it can come on at any time and so quick, Arabi didn't present as a normal colic case he was just shaking but still eating but his gums were pale that's what made me suspect it.

 

[Fransurrey]

My little mare has had this number of colics and probably a similar period in between. They've all been gassy. Nowhere near serious enough for a hospital visit and she's always had a delicate disposition, so I can't manage her any better I don't think. In her case, age is now a factor. She's 22 and also has SI problems and severe sweet itch. Her colics have always been during changeable weather conditions and have been managed simply by pain relief, buscopan and walking, so I strongly suspect one of her other issues will trigger any pts decision, rather than colic.

In your shoes, OP, I would just remain vigilant and as others have suggested, have something in place for if it happens again (probably best to discuss with your vet). It's not regular enough to be a major worry.

 

[MagicMelon]

Call it a day? I dont understand why youd consider PTS for a horse who has only had occasional colic which sounds like it was easily dealt with? Id probably look more into what I was feeding him though.

 

[TheMule]

Whilst I agree that the OP's horse is not one I'd consider PTS for as it stands, it is a sensible question to ask and a decision that can be very personal according to your own circumstances and the overall veterinary picture of the horse.
I have had one PTS for frequent spasmodic colics (older horse, colics every 2-3 days) obvious things were ruled out, it was the right decision but others may have continued as it wasn’t immediately life or death.
My partner is a vet and sometimes clients just can’t afford to treat so they are PTS. And that isn’t a bad decision for a horse, even if others may disagree and want to treat.

 

[misst]

I think it was a perfectly reasonable question from a concerned owner. She says she's asking questions not PTS a healthy horse!
If the forum can offer some sage advice - which it has- why are people jumping on the OP?
How often does the advice here say " better a day too soon than a moment too late"? Myself included in this. The OP is after guidance/ advice and is simply questioning her own management, which is rarely a bad thing. I hope you've found some useful advice OP x

 

[Chianti]

His last colic was a good few months ago has he been struggling since

I would get a 2nd dentist opinion

Over the period he's had the colics - for various reasons- he's had three different dentists. Teeth also been checked by my vet on each occasion.

 

[Chianti]

I'll repeat the question you've ignored. The last episode was 10 months ago, indicating that your management has been fine since then. Is there a reason for your questions now?

To answer your own question, I wouldn't consider a series of 3 colics months apart, resolved so easily and ending ten months ago to be any reason to have PTS even enter anyone's mind. So I'm very curious why it did.
.

I'm not saying that I am considering PTS now. I don't think I indicated that in my OP. My question is what frequency would you consider that PTS is the kindest thing to do? Each time he's had to be starved and had salt water syringes over a period of time. This can't be something that would be reasonable to expect a pony to go through on a very regular basis. I have a great vet and a very experienced yard owner. In terms of his management we're doing everything we can to prevent a further episode.

To answer your question - why now? I suppose it's because we'll soon be in November - the start of winter - when he had two episodes last year. All I was hoping was that someone who'd been in a similar position could offer some advise as to how they'd made a decision that none of us really want to make, but know we will have to at some point. I have had horses/ponies on and off for forty odd years but thankfully have never had one prone to colic so I though that the forum might be somewhere that I could find support in this.

 

[nagblagger]

Could you clarify why you are asking this question. We all have different opinions on how much we would put our animals through depending on their condition and circumstances at the time.
What other conditions does he have that might influence any decisions/treatments regarding colic which may influence answers given.

 

[Chianti]

I wouldn't put my horse through colic surgery, personally. But I have, and would continue to medically treat colic.

For the first 7 years of ownership, he never colicked once, and happily dealt with things that I think would now bring on colic.

He has colicked 4/5 times since 2020. All had a clear cause. Two were due to impactions (where I tried to let him have ad lib hay whilst on restricted turn out. He had no off switch and just ate till he nearly popped). The other 2/3 are similar in relation to his lack of self regulation, but were gassy colics... where he either got his muzzle off and stuffed himself silly, or my stupid error where I thought he would be ok without his muzzle on and he wasn't.

All were treated quickly and easily with Bute and buscopan, and walking every hour or so for several hours. I think he had one dose of liquids tubed for the impactions, but it was just the once on the yard. To be honest, the last one probably could have been treated without the vet, but when it started it was 3pm and I thought I'd rather not risk it, plus the out of hours call out etc. His 'tell' that he has colic is he lies down in his stable when there are people busy on the yard - something very unusual for him, and he doesn't immediately dive into his hay he just looks a bit quiet. The one where I had taken his muzzle off, the yard owner called me as it was in the middle of the day and she said he was stood in the field not grazing. He didn't look distressed/rolling or anything, but didn't have his head down.

Obviously I very much hope it doesn't happen again this winter, but if it does I wouldn't hesitate to treat him. It happens once or twice a year, and is easily resolved. Whilst he is clearly uncomfortable at the time, it passes within a few hours without any major interventions. I've been lucky that they have all been very minor - the vet joked with one of the muzzle related incidents that he looked like most people after their Christmas dinner- feeling too full and like he needed to undue his trouser buttons!

I did ask the vet why in his late middle age (he's 17 now) he has clearly become more sensitive to things that previously never caused an issue. She didn't really have an answer, she suggested that possibly his digestive system isn't as efficient as in his youth but that we'd probably never know, just to be careful with things that now seem to trigger him.

That's strange- my vet used the Christmas dinner comparison as well.

 

[ycbm]

OK , if I was to put a horse to sleep for colic which can be resolved with a bit of buscopan then it would probably have to have happened 4 times in a 4 month time period with shortening time intervals, no let up on changes of management and no other changes possible. I might PTS instead of treating the 5 or 6th occurrence, on the assumption that something serious is going wrong and it's only going to get worse. But only if the horse was otherwise fit and healthy. If there are other conditions or financial considerations involved my answer might be quite different.
.

 

[meleeka]

I'm not saying that I am considering PTS now. I don't think I indicated that in my OP. My question is what frequency would you consider that PTS is the kindest thing to do? Each time he's had to be starved and had salt water syringes over a period of time. This can't be something that would be reasonable to expect a pony to go through on a very regular basis. I have a great vet and a very experienced yard owner. In terms of his management we're doing everything we can to prevent a further episode.

To answer your question - why now? I suppose it's because we'll soon be in November - the start of winter - when he had two episodes last year. All I was hoping was that someone who'd been in a similar position could offer some advise as to how they'd made a decision that none of us really want to make, but know we will have to at some point. I have had horses/ponies on and off for forty odd years but thankfully have never had one prone to colic so I though that the forum might be somewhere that I could find support in this.

I think when you’ve had enough of it, it’s safe to say the horse has too. Everyone is different. Personally if it was anymore than once every couple of months I’d make the call.

I did have one pts recently when the first colic she’d ever had was slow to resolve, but she was old and had other issues.

 

[Chianti]

It was you that said about calling it a day! I have just spent £8,000 on my horse trying to his life with colic and he lost his life with something else in the end up anyway so …….,

These are very MINOR EPISODES nothing really in the grand scheme of things

I meant 'call it a day' as in the future tense. Not now. They are 'minor episodes' but even minor episodes - if they happen very frequently - will start to impact on quality of life.

My mare had colic episodes. A scope showed an impactation at the entrance to her stomach. They got more frequent and after a field accident a scope showed another impactation. I let her go. She had delayed gastric emptying.

That's very sad. How did they treat the impactions? My pony has other health issues but I think it's this that is worrying me the most as you can't tell how it's going to develop. What can seem quite mild can really be very serious. I'm very worried that he'll have an episode and it won't be spotted.

 

[Snow Falcon]

The first one was treated with coke to dissolve the mass. The second one I let her go and she'd had more frequent episodes leading up to that.