How many horses really are sound on a hard surface circle?

[[59668]]

As title really.

Vet today and my mare is still lame on left rein on hard circle and is sound on right rein now. I'm disappointed to be honest but vet said crack on with bringing her back into work.

I'm just wondering how worrying this is really? How many horses in any level of work from hacking to badminton are really sound in this situation?!

 

[HufflyPuffly]

When we took Topaz for a work up a few years ago she was, but the vet did say she was probably the soundest looking horse they had seen...

My oldie wouldn't have passed the test I don't think, even when I got her at 12, not sure about Skylla as we've never done it but my chiro vet is always pretty pleased with her.

 

[ihatework]

Well quite a lot are mildly unsound in that situation but are sound for purpose.

You need to put it in context of degree of lameness, other clinical or behavioural symptoms.

One thing I would always want to do is to block the lame foot and see what happens. Sometimes they are 3/10 on one and 5/10 on the other (for example) so to the naked eye look less lame than they actually are.

I don’t ignore even mild lameness on a small hard circle. But I don’t necessarily stop working the horse

 

[[59668]]

Thanks all. Some history.... horse showed 1/10 lame on both forelegs on a hard circle just before christmas. xrays were inconclusive, but she nerve blocked sound to the caudal heel area. MRI scans showed very mild inflammation in both coffin joints. This is what the MRI report said:

"scans demonstrate little of concern in these forefeet. There is mild effusion of the distal interphalangeal joints bilaterally. This is a common finding in adult horses and may represent a sympathetic effusion, mild synovitis or early degenerative joint disease. Medication of the distal interphalangeal joints with corticosteroids may be beneficial. The scans are reassuring that this horse does not have major soft tissue or osseous pathology. it should be considered that MRI has a low sensitivity for detection of changes associated with capsular foot pain (corns, subsolar bruising, laminar inflammation) and this cannot be ruled out as a cause of lameness in this horse."

so I had both coffin joints medicated, that was 2 weeks ago, so today was the 2 week checkup. Not longer lame on right rein, still 1/10 on the left (hard circle).

I now have her on a boswellia supplement (Science Supplements). I think I was sort of expecting her to be totally sound, and she isn't! We only compete prelim dressage and jump 70/80cm.

 

[ihatework]

In the grand scheme of foot pain, MRI findings and stuff that all sounds reasonably positive and perhaps you are expecting too much too soon.

I’d be very hot on foot balance and I’d keep the work fairly low impact for a while.

 

[Bernster]

I assume not many horse owners do check soundness in the way you would a vet check or vetting and I’m sure plenty of horses would show some mild lameness but be in full work, with no known medical issues.

Its obv important to know your horse and be aware of changes. Although I don’t do a check by lunging on the hard, mine do get lunged on the soft and me, my instructor and the yard manager seem to be able to pick up changes at an early stage.

 

[Scotsbadboy]

Unless you plan to be the best of the best riding a tight circle on hard ground (and lets face it you aren't very likely to... that's just odd!) then i agree with the vet to crack on. You'd be amazed how many unsound horses are out there.

Might be more challenging spotting the sound horse to be honest!

 

[Lintel]

How many humans are sound? ?

 

[Birker2020]

As title really.

Vet today and my mare is still lame on left rein on hard circle and is sound on right rein now. I'm disappointed to be honest but vet said crack on with bringing her back into work.

I'm just wondering how worrying this is really? How many horses in any level of work from hacking to badminton are really sound in this situation?!

I've seen some top showjumpers really lame in trot which is why you rarely see them trot in the collecting ring and some I've seen lame in walk, but when they canter into the main ring from the collecting ring they are as good as new.

I think there is a huge percentage of horses that are lame whether that be from problems with hereditary issues as in my horses case with her neck, or whether its from poor shoeing causing lameness problems, poor surfaces, poor riding - incorrect way of riding or not warming up sufficiently, overweight riders contributing to problems or just high mileage. Sometimes its really hard to see if they are lame if they are bilaterally lame and if they are inconsistently lame.

I am dreading it when my horse dies. My criteria has always been to buy a 17hh - 17.2hh, bay, black or liver chestnut, white markings, aged between 6-8, and I've always had exactly what I want and have mainly brought them on myself. Now my main criteria when the time comes will be trying to buy a horse that is actually sound.

Is it that horses in the 80's and 90' were stronger native types without the warmblood influence or is it that we have moved on with technology and awareness and we are more aware of these issues thus they are easier to spot?

 

[Polos Mum]

My horse with a bone cyst is currently having 12 months field rest before I make a decision on his future. After investigations and treatment and box rest the vet came out and we trotted him on a circle on the concrete. He was clearly lame. I asked the vet whether seriously it was fair to try field rest given his lameness (not great at all to my eye) - I told him I wasn't a bunny hugger and would rather PTS than leave in pain in the field.

He said he was sounder than most low level riding horses that the vet looks after.

I think the proportion of horses who are fit and able to do the job that they are being asked to do (most do low level hacking / riding club) that would pass a vet with 100% clean vetting is pretty small.
Equally they are doing a sensible job within their limits and so they and their owners are happy.

 

[Scotsbadboy]

Birker2020 a showjumper told me about that once and once you start watching you notice that a massive percentage of showjumpers canter straight into the ring, lol! Once you see it you cant un see it!

Bit of both, technology advancements and hot blooded horses!

 

[Tiddlypom]

My mare who has been extensively medicated and rehabbed was at her last chiro vet check sound in front but showed up 2/10 lame on LH, 1/10 lame on RH on the lunge. The target was for her to be at least a comfortable pasture ornament, and she is, so that’s good.

The vet said that she is sounder than many horses out there competing...

 

[sbloom]

Sound on any surface....

 

[sport horse]

Birker2020 a showjumper told me about that once and once you start watching you notice that a massive percentage of showjumpers canter straight into the ring, lol! Once you see it you cant un see it!

Bit of both, technology advancements and hot blooded horses!

Maybe at National level but all international level horses are vetted into every show so they have to be 'reasonably' sound!!

 

[LEC]

Gait analysis has come on a huge amount now and I think will be a game changer. My vet now regularly uses it as it picks up things the human eye cannot see. I will be getting horses done with vacs as worth having consistent data for £60 to build up a full picture of the horse and catch things early.

 

[[59668]]

This is all very interesting thanks everyone. For sure I'm not sound myself haha!
On the subject of gait analysis I donuse an Equisense which is really useful but only up to a point. It doesn't record soundness/symmetry on a circle. So if your horse is sound in a straight line but lame on a circle it doesn't pick it up.

 

[Lady Jane]

@Birker2020 Is it that horses in the 80's and 90' were stronger native types without the warmblood influence or is it that we have moved on with technology and awareness and we are more aware of these issues thus they are easier to spot?

I think its both these reasons. WBs were much less common years ago and I'm convinced are more 'fragile'. Due to Social Media (internet generally) and veterinary technology we are all more aware. If my horse is lame I'm not happy just being told to give a month off, I want to know exactly what's wrong - so let's have another scan/xray!!! If they discover there are long term issues with multiple scans my horse is doomed - although as he is turned away for 2 years at the moment as technology can't find his problem maybe that not too relevant - and his is 7 years old. And of course a very well bred WB.......

 

[Pippity]

My vet and physio agree that a 100% sound horse is extremely rare. What's important is whether they're sound for the work they're being asked to do. My cob has hock arthritis. She's sound and comfortable as a happy hacker with one or two sessions a week in the school at walk and trot. She wouldn't be sound and comfortable if I asked her to jump regularly or tried to take her to Grand Prix dressage.

On her regular check-ups, she's occasionally been 1/10th lame on her off hind when doing a tight circle on hard ground, but vet, physio, instructor (and the horse!) all agree that's no reason to stop working her.

She's probably sounder than I am, and I don't get to stop working!

 

[Leandy]

I don't think sound is an absolute black and white thing though. Nor is identifying soundness (1/10, 3/10 etc) an exact science. Surely a horse should be regarded as sound if it is capable and willing to comfortably do the work required of it. How many people, even athletes, look unsound but are happily going about daily life? I certainly don't think horses have got less sound, rather we are more conscious of looking for unsoundness and have better diagnostic techniques to pinpoint the cause. In days gone by horses worked (often much harder than they do today) whilst they were capable of doing so, which is a less stringent test. Those which were truly unsound to the extent of being unsuitable for work were generally disposed of which has the added side effect of meaning they are not bred from. The modern trend to keep not very sound horses going through medication, phsyio etc etc may mean that their unsoundnesses are more likely to be perpetuated in offspring.

I now have her on a boswellia supplement (Science Supplements). I think I was sort of expecting her to be totally sound, and she isn't! We only compete prelim dressage and jump 70/80cm.

Then you are doing only relatively light work with her, so I would crack on, especially as nothing serious has been identified.

 

[Lady Jane]

Gait analysis has come on a huge amount now and I think will be a game changer. My vet now regularly uses it as it picks up things the human eye cannot see. I will be getting horses done with vacs as worth having consistent data for £60 to build up a full picture of the horse and catch things early.

Where are you based. who is your vet? Gait analysis at the RVC is £140. Its a valuable tool but few horses are 100% level which can then get you wondering if you do as an annual check?

 

[LEC]

Where are you based. who is your vet? Gait analysis at the RVC is £140. Its a valuable tool but few horses are 100% level which can then get you wondering if you do as an annual check?

You are not looking for 100% you are looking at data for your horse. So in order to have data you need to build it. Where I think it’s so valuable is you build an understanding of what is ‘normal’, bit like how you should run bloods. Then if anything changes you have a clearer picture.

I am a complete convert having spent a good hour on my horse with it and looking at the way the data is produced. It looks not at 100% but at whether your horse is within a normal parameter.

 

[Lady Jane]

@LEC I think gait analysis is a great tool, it showed my horse was slightly unlevel when it couldn't be seen with the naked eye. I don't think they expect any horse to be '100%' - poor choice of words on my part

 

[Flicker]

Sound for purpose. A few years ago I was interested in buying a lovely little mare and had her vetted pre-purchase. She trotted away lame from flexion on both hinds, trotting sound after 2-3 strides. The vet was totally unconcerned and said that based on what I wanted to do with her, her age and generally excellent conformation, he would be happy to pass her as fit for purpose even after this. Sadly she was mildly but consistently lame in front on both legs on a large circle and he advised against purchase on this basis.

 

[Equisense]

Thanks for using our Motion S sensor! Did you see that we've added the display of the weaker diagonal in the app?
This is very helpful for detecting any lameness or other health issue, especially in combination with the heart rate monitoring! Just check it out on our Instagram and website

 

[Lady2021]

Depends on the age of the horse. if it is a young horse then I would worry about long term sounds issues. If the horse is 15+ then I would say it probably is common since you have damaged to the joints from a lifetime of work.

 

[iknowmyvalue]

I see it like this: in an ideal world should a horse be sound on a hard circle? Yes. If you take a population of low level/RC horses or hunters, with no known problems and no issues doing their job, and trotted them on a hard circle, would they all be 100% sound? Absolutely not.

As the above poster said, if this was a young horse I would worry more about long term soundness, but for a teenage horse I wouldn’t be so worried. If the horse is happy and willing to do the job being asked then I’d consider it “sound enough” and crack on, knowing that in the future the issue may well get worse and need medicating/looking at in more detail.

also I know of a 5* event horse that has a metal plate in one pastern, was done when he was a young horse. I don’t know for sure, but I’d say he’s unlikely to be consistently sound on a hard circle, especially a tighter one. Obviously has to be sound for a trot up at events, but hard circles/flexion tests are often a different story...

 

[Bernster]

Makes you wonder about doing it for a 5 stage vetting then !

 

[Michen]

I see it like this: in an ideal world should a horse be sound on a hard circle? Yes. If you take a population of low level/RC horses or hunters, with no known problems and no issues doing their job, and trotted them on a hard circle, would they all be 100% sound? Absolutely not.

As the above poster said, if this was a young horse I would worry more about long term soundness, but for a teenage horse I wouldn’t be so worried. If the horse is happy and willing to do the job being asked then I’d consider it “sound enough” and crack on, knowing that in the future the issue may well get worse and need medicating/looking at in more detail.

also I know of a 5* event horse that has a metal plate in one pastern, was done when he was a young horse. I don’t know for sure, but I’d say he’s unlikely to be consistently sound on a hard circle, especially a tighter one. Obviously has to be sound for a trot up at events, but hard circles/flexion tests are often a different story...

I agree. The problem is some are so honest that they are happy to carry on and they then really break down because by the time they show it it’s become pretty serious. I have a horse like this and I’m fairly sure if his various little medical mysteries had been ignored he would be seriously broken by now. I have my horses checked every 6 months by a vet for soundness, not to say anything would change in their work if there was something very minor but I would want to monitor it for any sign of worsening.

 

[Errin Paddywack]

One of the horses I bred went on to do Long Distance. At his first Golden Horseshoe event he gained a Silver missing Gold by about 5 secs. However he was very slightly unlevel behind, it was normal for him. Vets that knew him had no problem with it but at an event where there was a vet that didn't know him he was spun at the pre event trot up. He absolutely was not lame, it was just his way of going but they stopped competing him because it was too disappointing putting all the work in only to be spun and not compete. He went on to have a long and happy life, he also did western and was very popular at the trekking centre his owners ran.