How many professionals............

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stormox

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I often see posts on here where someone has a problem (napping bucking rearing etc) with their horse and have had a professional to visit,be it saddle fitter, dentist, back person, vet but the unwanted behaviour hasnt changed.
So the poster has got another, different saddle fitter, dentist, back person, vet...... and the unwanted behaviour is still there.
So they post on the forum- various suggestions but a lot of people are saying 'get another saddle fitter, dentist, back person, vet - scope for ulcers, try barefoot......your horse is telling you he's in pain'
My question is how many professionals would you get to your horse to make sure he is ok and not in pain before deciding 'maybe its a schooling problem' and work (maybe with an instructor or professional rider) to get him through the issue by riding him?
 
That is a tricky question to answer, because it is impossible to judge the level of competency of the owner/keeper of the horse.

Some could see if the horse was in pain within the first few moments of work or non typical behaviour. Some have no idea that the tack didn't fit, a leg is hanging off or the horse is being fed to oblivion.

Experience cannot be bought and we all have to turn to others for help at whatever level is needed. I do think many owners/keepers do not take enough time to get to really know their horse and can then miss small indicators of a possible problem or issue. A good example of this would be my young mare this morning. She appeared unlevel behind and tense through her back in the school, the reason was short of work, too fresh, too tense and desperate to throw a tantrum.
 
AdorableAlice said:
Experience cannot be bought and we all have to turn to others for help at whatever level is needed. I do think many owners/keepers do not take enough time to get to really know their horse and can then miss small indicators of a possible problem or issue. A good example of this would be my young mare this morning. She appeared unlevel behind and tense through her back in the school, the reason was short of work, too fresh, too tense and desperate to throw a tantrum.
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Very true indeed - and this was certainly the case with my 'ploddy' Connie yesterday who jogged constantly with excitement as it was his first outing with his pals in a few weeks. He is back to normal now!
The problem I've found is that not all 'professionals' are really good. The same pony is a nightmare when it comes to saddle fitting - he is a slightly odd shape - and a few years ago a saddle fitter was recommended to me. I do like to go by personal recommendations but in this case I ended up with a very unhappy pony (and he let me know). Another fitter - recommended by my instructor - could find a number of things that the original fitter hadn't done quite right and within no time I had a pony going better than ever. But the original saddle fitter is still working and, it seems, in demand. It's tricky.
 
I completely trust my vet and physio (saddle fitter too I guess) so if they all drew a blank, I'd then want to draw up a plan with my trainer how to move forward.

I am lucky though, if a person didn't trust their vet, their way forward would be much less clear.

Fiona
 
We all have to question, research, evaluate and educate ourselves as much as we can. Once that is in place we should have an idea whether we can rely on the professional's expertise or not - and keep questioning them, what are they doing and importantly WHY, and what they can do if there is no improvement.
 
I think JillA's right - we need to continue to learn and continue to question - not be afraid to challenge. In my experience you often get conflicting views from professionals - so it isn't as simple as repeatedly trying different variations of the same professional before deciding its a schooling problem. So trainer says its tack, fitter says it is low grade lameness, vet says its hocks, physio says it is back and so on round the circle. Every opinion has value - and heaven knows the horse world has enough opinions! But we have to know enough to sift between them. You're never too old or too experienced to learn something new!
 
I'm in the mood to be a bit picky and pedantic
I just checked the definition of the word professional; it confirms the idea that the essential of professional is......for payment.

Why should the essence of demanding payment.....confirm the notion that a person is experienced and effective in that activity?

There is the idea that within observation/diagnosis/remedy/training the horse.....it helps to know the horse well; and I agree with that. So also with your mentor or adviser, it is helps to know, or obtain trusted recommendations relative to the person concerned; but unwise to rely on self presentations simply because they are professional......it might be a demand for payment not backed up by experience and expertise.
 
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rifruffian said:
I'm in the mood to be a bit picky and pedantic
I just checked the definition of the word professional; it confirms the idea that the essential of professional is......for payment.

Why should the essence of demanding payment.....confirm the notion that a person is experienced and effective in that activity?

There is the idea that within observation/diagnosis/remedy/training the horse.....it helps to know the horse well; and I agree with that. So also with your mentor or adviser, it is helps to know, or obtain trusted recommendations relative to the person concerned; but unwise to rely on self presentations simply because they are professional......it might be a demand for payment not backed up by experience and expertise.
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I used the word professional ( as you say, requiring payment) because ive never known a dentist, saddle fitter, physio, chiro etc do owt for nowt!
 
But some categories are completely unregulated or of questionable training, so there is a starting point - for your horse's sake check and recheck, and stick to facts. Which professional register are you on, who trained you under what scheme, how long was your training and what did it comprise, rather than which horses have you made a difference to. Most of the good guys won't mind, in fact they will respect you for it - there is a local dentist advertising and when I questioned him turns out he is on the BAEDT student register, which limits his ability to do more than check and rasp but he was impressed that I had checked him out.
 
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Of course stormox it is clear how you use the word professional.......my own experience is that I have met up with quite a few experienced people who will in fact do owt for nowt, at times........but that's not to deny the essential that everyone has to scratch a living.
 
Interestingly one well known behaviorist would argue it is more usually a schooling issue. Possibly because by the time they get to him everything has already been checked! It is very hard because you have to trust the people you are dealing with and that isn't always easy. I have dealt with farriers who are recommended by one vet but whose work has been seen as sub standard by another. In that case the proof has been in the fact that changing from him has produced sound horses. I have dealt with saddle fitters who were master saddlers but who were absolutely useless and frightened of horses. Its very difficult to judge without the experience of having dealt with good and bad. These days I'm not afraid to question vet's or farriers of anyone else who deals with my horses. I think that is the only way.
 
Well professionals are not all created equal - split because they do it for a living doesn't mean that they're any good at it.

It's exactly the same outside of the horsey world. I'm an engineer and I would say that a good 50% of the engineers I've met in my career are pretty poor. They may have the training and experience for the job, but they simply don't have the right brain for it, and never did have. Vet science, physio and saddle fitting are all professions like engineering or cookery, where they really have to start with the right brain otherwise they will only really ever be competent at the routine stuff.

As a horse owner you just have to listen carefully to what the professional says and try to work out if it rings true to you, and whether they seem to be seeing the whole picture
 
stormox said:
My question is how many professionals would you get to your horse to make sure he is ok and not in pain before deciding 'maybe its a schooling problem' and work (maybe with an instructor or professional rider) to get him through the issue by riding him?
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Firstly, it depends if the schooling of the horse in question is the actual problem in the first place - a bit of a chicken and egg question from my pov.

Also, some things can go undiagnosed for a long time - manifesting in ways where when one "problem" is "fixed", the horse tries to show us in other ways.

Another could be that the professional in question has no experience at recognising whatever the problem actually is.

One example I could give is where a horse was "tricky" and had saddles fitted and adjusted, feed changed, physiological, Chiro, vet and turned out to be something muscle related - not one "professional" had any experience of it (EPSM).

Experience does come to in to it as a few posters have said.
 
I think the word professional should be replaced with expert.
Most experts who have professional standards restrict there areas of practice to areas where they are competent. The problem is most horse 'professionals' do no restrict themselves to areas they are competent, in fact most have never even been assessed for competence in any shape or form, and think if they have passed a basic qualification in one area they can sell their services in other areas on the back of that.
Being fit to practice in any field means you usually are aware of your limitations and competence, and undergo peer review of your work or have a mentor. I suppose with most horse 'professionals' the least you should expect is that they have insurance and they do you or your animal no harm.
 
In the last 6 months we have had to change the vet practice we use as all the good practitioners there had left(including the good equine dentists), on the last visit to check one of ours that was running lame after casting a shoe. We had a lot of ambiguous thoughts(arthritis, splints, fracture, muscle torn, and a few others I forget) even after a X-ray,which took a month for them to send a copy to us, and suggestion of bute and steroids to carry on working the horse as we are after the first visit, even though it was lame..... and send the horse off for a few thousand pounds worth of "tests", it felt like dealing with a salesperson at dixons trying to upsell to the customer. We took the decision to give the horse 6 months field rest and we are now just bringing him back into work, the vets thought we should just mask over the issue and potentially make matters worse. Although equally I see that many horse owners don't care about these things and wish to crack on come what may, and the vets are meeting that demand. We are a bit old fashioned but a well looked after horse with no genetic faults in my view should be good for at least 15 years of work if not more.
Behavior like above may mean my rising 9 year old could be on the scrap heap by 12 if we listened to the professional. It ultimately transpired to be ligament damage, ideally we would have given him 2 months box rest and 4 in a field, but his temperament is not suited to being boxed more than a couple of days in a row.

We are horse owners that are always asking questions as every day is a school day, and we have learnt that not equine professionals are equal. A saddle fitter that does not sell a saddle without a 100% refund and a first reflocking included in the price is not worth doing business with. A farrier that is not concerned with soundness is not welcome.... etc etc...

As DabDab suggested we as customers need to sift through things to see what rings true, and also our trust must be earnt not given.

This is not the first time we have been let down, and all we do is move forward and learn from it, and now a referral from one of our trusted grouping of professionals carries more weight than just qualifications and mention from a casual equestrian. It does take time to build such a network and it also means there is a knowledge base to call on as well as contacts. And this is where I think forums like this fall into when people don't have the fortunate position of a network to help them through stuff locally.

Sorry what I meant to say is ulcers as that is always the answer :)
 
AdorableAlice said:
That is a tricky question to answer, because it is impossible to judge the level of competency of the owner/keeper of the horse.

Some could see if the horse was in pain within the first few moments of work or non typical behaviour. Some have no idea that the tack didn't fit, a leg is hanging off or the horse is being fed to oblivion.

Experience cannot be bought and we all have to turn to others for help at whatever level is needed. I do think many owners/keepers do not take enough time to get to really know their horse and can then miss small indicators of a possible problem or issue. A good example of this would be my young mare this morning. She appeared unlevel behind and tense through her back in the school, the reason was short of work, too fresh, too tense and desperate to throw a tantrum.
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This! I commented on another thread that I know mine inside out. I know how he reacts to things and how he thinks. Once a week I go over him from head to toe. I look at his overall condition, check all his muscles, look at his foot balance, his coat condition. I watch him move and do a quick assessment most days. That means I know quickly when something is off. I'm always shocked how few people do this. Its not hard to learn what a muscle should feel like or the difference between a well horse and one not quite right. I am always shocked and stunned by how few people can spot a mild lameness though!

I am lucky now to have a team of people I trust implicitly so no second opinions needed. I have previously had several false starts though! I dont mess about. I do the professional checks I think are warranted, take advice on board and then its vet time. I have had a lot of sucess using an osteo vet and will continue to do that going forwards before going for a full work up though.
 
One of the problems tends to be the "Donald Rumsfeld Situation" There are known knowns, there are unknown knowns and there are unknown unknowns. The only way you can reduce the last one is by gaining as much experience and knowledge as you can, so that you can then judge the ability and knowledge of the "professionals" you choose to employ. When you know your own animals then you know which professional to get in, without all that knowledge and experience you have to just hope that you find good ones and learn as much as you can from as many trusted sources as you can.
Back when I learnt to ride and more importantly,learnt horse care, good riding schools ensured that they taught you the essentials of horse care, when you bought your own horse you used the same vet and farrier as the RS.
 
If it's an expert whose judgement I trust, and it chimes with my own gut feeling, I wouldn't get a second opinion - although I might do a second call out. Identifying problems is not an exact science, and part of getting the best from your experts is to keep working with them and discussing things with them - not just going elsewhere when they turn out not to be an infallible Oracle after seeing your horse for ten minutes!

I might get a second opinion if I really disagreed with the first or had concerns about their ability, but I wouldn't just keep getting different opinions because I was stuck for ideas and/or didn't want to get on board - if vet, chiro, dentist, saddler and instructor all agree, they're probably on the right track.

Unfortunately I have no experience of niggling issues turning out to need schooling. All mine have been broken neddies, and all my experts have agreed! I have, though, seen others advised that theirs is a schooling issue, refuse to accept it, fork out for every solution under the sun except actually ride the bloody thing, and never fix the problem...

If something of mine seemed to have an issue caused by a schooling problem, I'd get a pro to ride the horse and have lessons myself. In those circumstances, I've probably caused the problem, so it probably isn't realistic for me to fix it. I suspect admitting that might be a barrier for some people- easier to think the horse is broken than that the owner can't ride!
 
I've seen dentists and saddle fitters who do more harm than good at times.
I always look for recommendations off people i trust and who I respect as knowing more than me, especially people who keep horse sound and competing all season.
 
My saddle fitting expert is usually the horse. I can see as well as anyone else where the saddle sits on the horse, whether it is level at cantle and pommel, etc, etc but only the horse can feel if it is comfortable. Horses will tell you if they are comfortable, if you are prepared to listen. I would be most unhappy if I had tried 10 saddles and the horse didn't like any of them. I certainly wouldn't have bought one of them!
 
It isn't just horses either - I received out of date advice on doggie vaccination from a vet I quite trust (has, with other animals, been very honest about when he didn't know what to do and didn't even charge for the consultation) so double-checked with both another vet and also HHO. I'd still use the first vet for some things as I like his approach. But I'd use a different vet for different needs. Not all professionals are going to be equally good in all circs. Sometimes it is just a question of finding the right one for the issue at hand. And obviously that can take longer the first time that issue arises.
 
GirlFriday said:
It isn't just horses either - I received out of date advice on doggie vaccination from a vet I quite trust (has, with other animals, been very honest about when he didn't know what to do and didn't even charge for the consultation) so double-checked with both another vet and also HHO. I'd still use the first vet for some things as I like his approach. But I'd use a different vet for different needs. Not all professionals are going to be equally good in all circs. Sometimes it is just a question of finding the right one for the issue at hand. And obviously that can take longer the first time that issue arises.
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So true GF... my cats old vet missed her cancer saying it was just mites - unconvinced, I decided to book her into a different vets who bothered to take swabs and sure enough, it was squamous cell carcinoma. I felt terribly guilty that I didn't use my gut instinct sooner. We lost her just a few moths after that.
 
Personally from my standpoint, if either of my horses were to begin some form of abnormal behaviour (napping, rearing, bucking etc.), I'd attempt to work through it myself first. I know when they last had a 'professional' to look at them and can see myself if saddle fit has changed and feel myself if teeth are sharper than they should be. I would have to be unable to work through the problem myself, and then unable to work through it with a trainer before I reverted back to saddler/ dentist/ physic etc.
 
stormox said:
My question is how many professionals would you get to your horse to make sure he is ok and not in pain before deciding 'maybe its a schooling problem' and work (maybe with an instructor or professional rider) to get him through the issue by riding him?
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After decades of experience, if I have decided that my horse is in pain, no expert could convince me that it is a training issue. And if I don't already know, then I will keep changing experts until I find the one that can find where the problem is.

IME, if there has been a behaviour change with no other changes, it's almost always due to pain. Though there are plenty of strong, determined trainers who can often persuade a horse to work through pain, which can make it look like it was a training issue.
 
ycbm said:
After decades of experience, if I have decided that my horse is in pain, no expert could convince me that it is a training issue. And if I don't already know, then I will keep changing experts until I find the one that can find where the problem is.

IME, if there has been a behaviour change with no other changes, it's almost always due to pain. Though there are plenty of strong, determined trainers who can often persuade a horse to work through pain, which can make it look like it was a training issue.
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This
 
Entire industries are built on riders not wanting to admit that it's a training issue. OF COURSE there is a need for saddles to fit, lamenesses and other painful issues to be resolved, diets to be tailored to exercise, etc., but at the end of the day horses can't perform any better than their riders.
 
Pearlsacarolsinger said:
My saddle fitting expert is usually the horse. I can see as well as anyone else where the saddle sits on the horse, whether it is level at cantle and pommel, etc, etc but only the horse can feel if it is comfortable. Horses will tell you if they are comfortable, if you are prepared to listen. I would be most unhappy if I had tried 10 saddles and the horse didn't like any of them. I certainly wouldn't have bought one of them!
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I so agree!! Saddle fitting in my day wasn't some dark art. When I bought a new or secondhand saddle I would look myself to see if it fitted and the house went well in it. I would always get the saddler to check too.
Equine physios weren't around when I was young, however I had a good horse vet and would call him if necessary. I think (but I could well be wrong!) that a lot of lameness is exacerbated by people constantly going in circles/lunging in schools. When I was young we mostly hacked, not a massive amount is schooling was done, nor indeed fannying around, if you got a new horse you'd get on and ride it, good behaviour was an expectation.
 
This: I have always found pain when there's been issues. It can take a while to work through all the possibilities though.

ycbm said:
After decades of experience, if I have decided that my horse is in pain, no expert could convince me that it is a training issue. And if I don't already know, then I will keep changing experts until I find the one that can find where the problem is.

IME, if there has been a behaviour change with no other changes, it's almost always due to pain. Though there are plenty of strong, determined trainers who can often persuade a horse to work through pain, which can make it look like it was a training issue.
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I'm an old f@rt, and not a fluffy bunny.

I cringe now to think of those horses who I was ordered to 'ride through it' by List 1 BD judges et al, but who did indeed turn out to have lameness issues.

I've spent a while deconstructing the multiple veterinary issues that my current mare has. I will only ask her to 'work' once she is fit and ready to do so.

She had flown through a 5 stage vetting by a top referral practice when I bought her 18 months ago.
 
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