How many weekly sessions when backing?

[GrassChop]

I've had mixed opinions on this so I'm wondering what everyone else's views on it are.

My gelding will be 5 this year, I've already gently started backing him last summer and plan to get started again in spring. He is already very good with his long reining and I've had a few short strolls on him and I'm really pleased with where we are at.

Part of me thinks that I could probably just carry on with what I'm doing myself again in spring but I do have someone lined up to carry on his education and get him riding out properly, I would prefer someone professional doing it anyway to really set the foundations and to make sure it's done right. She recommends 2-3 sessions a week at roughly 45 minutes consisting of mainly getting them ridden out and finishing with some schooling. This works for me as I will only be hacking anyway. We were going to do 5 sessions overall and then see where we are at, whether I carry on or we have a few more.

However, I've also been told that to back a horse, it needs to be out having sessions under saddle, ridden, long reined etc everyday for 6 weeks solid at the least and this is apparently what they would do if they were sent off for backing and once the professional is done, I would need to continue it for another few months at the same rate.

I personally feel that would be too much. He's such a quick learner and relatively unproblematic, I don't think that much would be necessary. As much as I know he'd like the attention, I think daily work for months would be a bit of an overload!

 

[Korg]

I've never worked a horse every day when backing them, or overall when they're young. They need time to rest. The rest is where the processing happens, you can't just skip that.

Normally I think the rule of the horse's age is how many days it should be trained. Ie two year old trains two days per week (appropriate for their age), four years olds four days per week etc. However I don't think I'd work a five year old that is not already ridden/worked much more than three/four days per week. Some horses I've worked two days in a row, then two days off.

The professional's plan sounds reasonable.

 

[GrassChop]

I've never worked a horse every day when backing them, or overall when they're young. They need time to rest. The rest is where the processing happens, you can't just skip that.

Normally I think the rule of the horse's age is how many days it should be trained. Ie two year old trains two days per week (appropriate for their age), four years olds four days per week etc. However I don't think I'd work a five year old that is not already ridden/worked much more than three/four days per week. Some horses I've worked two days in a row, then two days off.

The professional's plan sounds reasonable.

That's a good way to look at it! I would have said 3 is enough but it all depends on how he processes it or if an extra day is needed.

The professional was happy to do every other day so we talked about doing Monday, Wednesday and Friday for 2 weeks with the weekend off.

 

[maya2008]

Well it depends on his experiences so far. If you have already got on, established steering and stopping in all gaits and met most of the local hacking routes, then you can probably pick things up fairly easily again after a winter off.

This is what we do:
- For a horse/pony who has been with us for at least a year. They would already have been walked out in traffic and off road, led from another horse, desensitised. We pop a rider on a couple of times, take a couple of steps, then more, then a bit more each day every day at that point until we are walk, trot, baby canter out hacking. That can take anything from a week to four weeks. At that point I drop right back and we do every other day for the rest of the year - but we back at 3 and a bit (the ‘bit’ depends on maturity) so are very mindful of their age as well as their developing muscles. Mine potter about for the first year or so not doing much more than learning about the world. Ours do everything in company at the age of 3 because they are still children themselves. Older ponies might hack out solo before the winter.
- For one who has been backed the year before (to the stage mentioned above) and had the winter off, I just hop back on and go for a short hack once the weather warms. Then we build length of hack from there. We don’t worry about every day at that point - they were backed the year before, they know how this works. I do keep an eye on energy levels though - at 4/5 years old they can need more consistent work to keep them sweet (usually at 5 rather than 4 but there is always the odd one!). We usually begin schooling at this stage - so the spring after they were first backed. They are stronger and take to it well. They get random holidays as they did the year before - if it’s really miserable weather, if we’re not feeling great, whenever seems a good time!

If they have known you forever, and are very tame and accepting, the every day thing for initial backing is less important. It is fairly vital with ex ferals and generally less well handled ponies, but very tame individuals usually don’t really care much what you do!

 

[Korg]

I should have mentioned that I was told by someone that once he's backed, I need to continue his education with at least 5-6 days a week work for several months?

Did they provide any explanation of why? I don't see why that would be good. I like to have them trained and backed for maybe two months, ridden in all gaits, the very basics. Then off for at least a month. Then you can start them again, but having breaks (long ones!) is important for youngsters.

Now your horse isn't that young, so he might not need as many long breaks as one started at three years old. But I doubt it'd do any harm.

 

[rara007]

I’d do 10min 7 times a week over 3 days for 45min. I rarely work any my adults for 45min. There’s lots to be gained from 5-10min lessons especially at that early stage.
Some recently backed horses will need to keep on at 5-6 times a week, others are chill enough an hours hack every fortnight and they’re still happy. Totally temperament dependant. I don’t think a 5yo needs a break any time soon if the work is progressive.

 

[GrassChop]

Did they provide any explanation of why? I don't see why that would be good. I like to have them trained and backed for maybe two months, ridden in all gaits, the very basics. Then off for at least a month. Then you can start them again, but having breaks (long ones!) is important for youngsters.

Now your horse isn't that young, so he might not need as many long breaks as one started at three years old. But I doubt it'd do any harm.

To keep up with his education otherwise it won't be enough, I'm told.

 

[GrassChop]

Well it depends on his experiences so far. If you have already got on, established steering and stopping in all gaits and met most of the local hacking routes, then you can probably pick things up fairly easily again after a winter off.

This is what we do:
- For a horse/pony who has been with us for at least a year. They would already have been walked out in traffic and off road, led from another horse, desensitised. We pop a rider on a couple of times, take a couple of steps, then more, then a bit more each day every day at that point until we are walk, trot, baby canter out hacking. That can take anything from a week to four weeks. At that point I drop right back and we do every other day for the rest of the year - but we back at 3 and a bit (the ‘bit’ depends on maturity) so are very mindful of their age as well as their developing muscles. Mine potter about for the first year or so not doing much more than learning about the world. Ours do everything in company at the age of 3 because they are still children themselves. Older ponies might hack out solo before the winter.
- For one who has been backed the year before (to the stage mentioned above) and had the winter off, I just hop back on and go for a short hack once the weather warms. Then we build length of hack from there. We don’t worry about every day at that point - they were backed the year before, they know how this works. I do keep an eye on energy levels though - at 4/5 years old they can need more consistent work to keep them sweet (usually at 5 rather than 4 but there is always the odd one!). We usually begin schooling at this stage - so the spring after they were first backed. They are stronger and take to it well. They get random holidays as they did the year before - if it’s really miserable weather, if we’re not feeling great, whenever seems a good time!

If they have known you forever, and are very tame and accepting, the every day thing for initial backing is less important. It is fairly vital with ex ferals and generally less well handled ponies, but very tame individuals usually don’t really care much what you do!

We've established stopping and steering in walk. Only very briefly touched on trotting and coming back to walk but that was in a straight line.

I've had him from 6 months old so he doesn't care about anything I do! I've been quite inconsistent with him to be honest for personal reasons and even when I've got him back out for a lead out and a hop on for 5-10 minutes after a month or so, he's been exactly the same! The longest it had been I think was from July/August to November!

 

[ihatework]

I think it might be easy to over/mis interpret.

Firstly I’d distinguish between the backing/breaking stage and the riding away stage.

The backing/breaking stage- you’ve dabbled in a part of this already by the sounds of it, but any decent young horse pro will want to put the horse through their ‘safety checks’, so will repeat a fair bit of the process.

During this stage I’d expect something to be done with the horse most days. Sometimes even twice a day. But it might only be 10-15 minutes and doesn’t need to include riding!
During this stage when you do get to the riding bit 45 mins is WAY too long. In the early days 10-15 mins under saddle maybe extending to 20 ish mins.

Depending on the horse, after 4-8 weeks you are more getting to riding away stage.
Even then I would tend to find 45 mins is really on the top end. I’d be more thinking 30 mins 4-5 times a week.

 

[TheMule]

I tend to do 2 days on, 2 days off. I find they learn really well on consecutive days but then the science says 2 days off is better for recovery than 1.

 

[gallopingby]

45 mins is too long if you re starting with a youngster. It may suit the trainer but it’s not the best plan for a young horse. Far better to do anything between 10 and 20 mins frequently than a longer session a couple of times a week. Once they’re older / have been ridden for a while 4 or 5 times a week is fine. You need to be able to factor in the ability to repeat something that maybe took a while to register on a particular day and be able to follow up / confirm the following day. @GrassChop if your horse is rising five he’s currently only 4 unless he was an early foal. Do you know when he was born? Horses used to be backed at 3 and ridden away at four. The trend these days is to wait until they’re 4 before beginning ridden work and for some breeds five is early enough. A lot depends on the horse, its breeding and your future plans.

 

[tda]

Maybe smile and nod at the "helpful person" and continue as you were before. I'm sure your chosen rider will soon be able to tell you if he is up for more or needs a break

 

[maya2008]

We've established stopping and steering in walk. Only very briefly touched on trotting and coming back to walk but that was in a straight line.

I've had him from 6 months old so he doesn't care about anything I do! I've been quite inconsistent with him to be honest for personal reasons and even when I've got him back out for a lead out and a hop on for 5-10 minutes after a month or so, he's been exactly the same! The longest it had been I think was from July/August to November!

I wrote a longer reply and then decided to just write the summary!

- Gold standard of sending a horse away to be backed at a good yard works so well because they have the perfect environment, very experienced jockeys and ground people, nanny horses, the whole works. It makes the process super easy for horse and human and sets them up for life.
- Doing it yourself with consistent ground help works because the horse trusts YOU and you can adapt in terms of time and frequency to them. If it takes longer or creates the odd issue then at least you are fixing your own mistakes!
- In your intended scenario you have a freelancer who should have answered all your questions already. If you are asking us not her, that’s not a great sign. Either her answers didn’t fill you with confidence or she isn’t approachable. She should have been able to tell you about previous horses and how she did it and why; she should have told you that on most days you will be paying for 45min and using 10-15 at most to start with. You should be able to see examples of horses she has backed; talk to people who have used her who can recommend her for exactly this skill.

(I don’t do this for a job but in our family we have backed tens of ponies over the years. If I ever did this professionally, I could show clients so many many examples of ponies we have produced - almost everything we have here was backed and ridden away by us, along with the tonnes of videos going back years showing so many firsts. She should at minimum be able to show you videos and put you in touch with previous clients who are happy to talk to you.)

 

[cornbrodolly]

We used to back our own , plus approx a dozen for other people per year - not that many really - but there only OH with myself as helper.
maya 2008 s answers are all you need to know!
We always encouraged owners to watch at any stage they liked , to see how the horse was doing , and also to understand what and how we did the process. Mostly the horses were with us 4-6 weeks . Sessions were approx 45 mins usually 5 days a week. At no point did we ever want to tire the horse or overface it. Much work was done at walk and trot , and low energy. Ridden work would be similar length of time if going for a slow hack with a school master, ad less in the school.
The riding on time afterwards is vital , and where most of the learning takes place [ and in some cases we did that too if owner didnt feel experienced enough ]
We would always recommend that after backing and riding on till autumn , that the winter would be rest time . I m afraid its one of my pet peeves that some young horses are kept riding over their first winter.

 

[sport horse]

I have backed my own for years and in recent years I have sent them away (I am too old now!). I back lighly at 3 years old then turn away for 6 - 9 months. After 4 weeks of quiet work they would be walk, trotiing and cantering in most cases. Some are quicker some much slower so there is no correct time. At 4 years old my horses would come in and start hacking out in good company plus light school work and small jumps. At 5 they would be out competing a modest amount. I have done this for years and I have 15 year old horses still fit, competing at top national level and quite sound.

 

[GrassChop]

I think it might be easy to over/mis interpret.

Firstly I’d distinguish between the backing/breaking stage and the riding away stage.

The backing/breaking stage- you’ve dabbled in a part of this already by the sounds of it, but any decent young horse pro will want to put the horse through their ‘safety checks’, so will repeat a fair bit of the process.

During this stage I’d expect something to be done with the horse most days. Sometimes even twice a day. But it might only be 10-15 minutes and doesn’t need to include riding!
During this stage when you do get to the riding bit 45 mins is WAY too long. In the early days 10-15 mins under saddle maybe extending to 20 ish mins.

Depending on the horse, after 4-8 weeks you are more getting to riding away stage.
Even then I would tend to find 45 mins is really on the top end. I’d be more thinking 30 mins 4-5 times a week.

Sorry, I should have probably clarified the 45 minute session that the pro would be doing isn't fully riding! She will be doing, as you said, the safety checks and establishing more of what I have started, setting the foundations and then riding away when we get there.

 

[GrassChop]

45 mins is too long if you re starting with a youngster. It may suit the trainer but it’s not the best plan for a young horse. Far better to do anything between 10 and 20 mins frequently than a longer session a couple of times a week. Once they’re older / have been ridden for a while 4 or 5 times a week is fine. You need to be able to factor in the ability to repeat something that maybe took a while to register on a particular day and be able to follow up / confirm the following day. @GrassChop if your horse is rising five he’s currently only 4 unless he was an early foal. Do you know when he was born? Horses used to be backed at 3 and ridden away at four. The trend these days is to wait until they’re 4 before beginning ridden work and for some breeds five is early enough. A lot depends on the horse, its breeding and your future plans.

It wouldn't be 45 minutes of solid riding, I should have explained that better. It's just the length of the session.

He is 5 in June. I had him leading out to start experiencing the outside world between 2-3yo then added the addition of a saddle between 3-4 with some leaning over, starting to add weight and the odd sit on along with long reining. Between 4yo to current, lots more long reining and a few minutes of walking with me on to practice stopping, steering and walking-on. Each time he's had the majority of winter off but comes back into it with ease. I have recently got him back out over the Christmas period and walked him out in hand in full tack and decided to find a gate to climb up and hop on and ride him back for the last 5 minutes and he was brilliant, standing still for me to get on and calmly walking home (even past some massive pigs!) with some steering and stopping practice too but I need to get his saddle done now so it was just done as a one off to see where we were at still.

I was planning to have him riding away last year but I decided not to as I felt he needed to grow more and he has since shot up on his bum so I'm hoping the front end will catch up in spring. When he is 5, I will likely continue with very light ridden work if we get there and not fully start until he is 6 as I just felt he was quite slow to mature physically so I didn't want to rush it but it all depends on how things go.

 

[GrassChop]

I wrote a longer reply and then decided to just write the summary!

- Gold standard of sending a horse away to be backed at a good yard works so well because they have the perfect environment, very experienced jockeys and ground people, nanny horses, the whole works. It makes the process super easy for horse and human and sets them up for life.
- Doing it yourself with consistent ground help works because the horse trusts YOU and you can adapt in terms of time and frequency to them. If it takes longer or creates the odd issue then at least you are fixing your own mistakes!
- In your intended scenario you have a freelancer who should have answered all your questions already. If you are asking us not her, that’s not a great sign. Either her answers didn’t fill you with confidence or she isn’t approachable. She should have been able to tell you about previous horses and how she did it and why; she should have told you that on most days you will be paying for 45min and using 10-15 at most to start with. You should be able to see examples of horses she has backed; talk to people who have used her who can recommend her for exactly this skill.

(I don’t do this for a job but in our family we have backed tens of ponies over the years. If I ever did this professionally, I could show clients so many many examples of ponies we have produced - almost everything we have here was backed and ridden away by us, along with the tonnes of videos going back years showing so many firsts. She should at minimum be able to show you videos and put you in touch with previous clients who are happy to talk to you.)

I've seen her physically in person backing and riding away someone else's pony on the same yard so I'm confident in her abilities and seen what she has produced. She has answered all the questions, it's just another horse owner that has mentioned the whole daily thing that made me feel like I wasn't doing the right thing.

 

[TheHairyOne]

Mine ended up doing 4 days on and 3 days off when he went for backing at 4 as he needed the consistancy for a few days to have it sink in, but then had more time to process and recover. Now at rising 5 he tends to do day on, day off, but its all very short sessions aiming to always end on a good note.

I will add that I sent him away as his answer to something he didnt want to do/didnt understand on the ground was to get very confrontational and I was on my own the vast majority of the time. We were slowly chipping away, but I wasnt enjoying the process. Because of this he didnt have anywhere near as much ground work and life experience as any of my other 4 years olds have done.

He then had 14 weeks off 2 weeks after he came home due to a niggley field injury and then another 3 weeks before xmas, so he has had plenty of proper breaks in the process. He comes in pretty wild after those, but does settle down in a couple of days now.

 

[dorsetladette]

I grew up on a yard backing and schooling ponies along side the stud and show side of things. It was a very methodical set out routine that every horse or pony would go through the same pattern and the process usually took 4 to 6 weeks. This gave the owner a green pony able to walk trot and canter in the school (very wobbly) under saddle and hack out happily. It was then the owners decision to either keep the pony with us longer to get more established or go home with homework and the offer of lessons. It worked well, but looking back it was a bit factory production line type work as it was a business and profits were always at the front of decision making.

I am now a hobby horse owner and have done things with my 2 youngsters very differently. R and R have been backed and ridden away from home. They both wore tack from a young age as part of the 'play' learning sessions we did with them. We put them through everything you could imagine while life was a big adventure and they were (well still are) sponges to soak up new things. It made the backing process really easy as the only new thing was me on board rather than on the ground. Both were hacking as soon as we established steering and breaks. Trot came naturally and canter will come when I'm happy they are balanced enough, but likely will be a sandy sloped track in the woods that we currently trot up where we can 'accidentally' fall into canter. There is no rush with these 2 as they are here for life and I'm happy to go at a pace we are all comfortable with.

I had a freelancer help me with Reggie as he was a little more of a handful than Robin, but he was/is absolutely fab. the only issue we have encountered is that he wasn't happy with anyone but me on board. I'm sure it will come in time - not the worst problem to have.

So I don't think there is a wrong way or a right way to do things, it is purely your decision and what works best for your horse. Mine were happy to be picked up and put down - I think generally Robin did 2 or 3 proper/structured sessions a week and maybe the odd extra one if there was something sticky I wanted to work on. Reggie started with 2 sessions a week with the freelancer (her on the ground and me as a crash test dummy) and 2 sessions with me only on the ground and then reduced freelancer slowly to 3 sessions a fortnight and then once a week. Freelancer then suggested she was no longer needed and I just hack to get miles on the clock. Luckily Reggie is happy to hack alone and we didn't need to worry about a nanny horse (he thinks he's human).

Because both my ponies had been here since they were 9 months they had already done all the hacking routes in hand so again the only difference was the me being onboard. I think the main thing is they enjoy what they are doing which keeps them eager to learn.

 

[AppyLover1996]

I think a lot depends on your horse and how he copes with things:

In my experience where I've helped a small handful of horses be backed and riding away, we didn't do something every day and didn't really have a set routine or time frame - but I expect it was this way because they were all personally owned horses and their owners (liked me) worked a standard full time job, so could only do bits at the weekend and when we could book time off of work x

All the horses that I helped to back and ride away (think it's about 7 or 8 off the top of my head) have turned out to be well functioning members of horsey society, they can do everything with confidence and any issues that have occurred the owners have solved along the way which has helped the trust even more.

With Rabbit when I come to back and ride him away, he certainly won't be in a consistent routine of so many sessions a week for a specific time period - he'll be picked up when I have the time and worked, and when I won't have time to work him for a while, I'll simply turn him away for a bit before picking him back up again x It helps as Rabbit is my personal horse and therefore I'm producing him for myself and myself only, so there's no rush in that regard, but a lot of what a pro would do if I were to send him away, I've done already in our "play" sessions that we have - he can pretty much do everything a ridden horse can do bar lunging and long reining, and that is with me working full time, having to account for weather putting stops to my plans etc. I've had the luxury of time (which I appreciate that pros have to work to a schedule as they're a business at the end of the day!) which has meant that Rabbit has had plenty of natural breaks to absorb what he has been taught x

He's also incredibly bonded to me so I think that if I were to send him away, he would really struggle with it as he is a complete and utter mummy's boy (something I'm aware that I'm going to have to work on!) x

I very roughly aim to do something with Rabbit once or twice a week (he's currently 2 years and 8 months old) and when he gets to 3, I'll aim for 3 days but won't hold myself to that level of "I must do 3 sessions a week or I'm failing" mindset - as I said a lot of it will depend on what time I have available, weather conditions (I don't mind rain but don't think backing a 3 year old in high winds is a good idea!), how Rabbit is maturing (he's an absolute dinosaur currently, so I'm expecting a few more random growth spurts before his finished height) and if I feel he could do with an extra session or needs a break x

 

[GrassChop]

Thanks all.

I think I'm probably lucky in the grand scheme of things with how easily he has picked things up and accepted weight and me on his back. He's never had anyone on foot or a horse to follow, I've done everything by myself with him and yes, we had difficulties where you get baby horse explosions and overload but that was at the start when he had only just started being led out in hand. I have led him out with another just to make sure he wouldn't find it too exciting because this will be something that will happen in his ridden life too and he just isn't bothered, he's very independent. He's long reined or had in hand hacks round the forest, seen all the forest animals, sheep stampedes, cyclists, cars and vans by himself with only me as reassurance, not that he was remotely fussed! He is inquisitive rather than scared.

To bit, bridle, saddle and ride, it's been actually pretty easy and straightforward so far. When I first sat on him, he took zero notice, same with the saddle, he's been totally unflappable with all of it. The only thing we had was some scary tumble dryer steam in all it's white spookiness coming out of a house and he stopped to look at it, not wired or like a ticking bomb, just stopped because he was unsure. I gently asked him to walk on with a squeeze and click and he went on.

It's easy to forget how good he has been when you go from an established horse to him because you're on autopilot until you realise that actually he stood stock still every time I got on whether that was at a block, a random gate down the lane or a grassy verge, he didn't fidget to tack up etc, he did it all "normally" like he's been there/done that already.

Apart from his complete destructiveness in the field, I am incredibly proud of how he has taken it all in his "stride". I work full time and my mare is in work so time has sadly been limited which has meant he has been picked up and put down at random times but it hasn't had a negative impact and it meant we didn't rush which is what I wanted anyway. He needed to grow mentally and physically so whilst he'd probably have been fine and happy doing more, it's still worked out okay so far.

I fully expect that once he's more established, he will push boundaries again and have his moments but we'll cross that bridge when it comes to it.

I just second question myself when I'm told what I'm doing isn't enough and that it should be x amount of sessions over x amount of weeks and I just don't want to do it wrong.

 

[spotty_pony2]

I’ve usually done about 20 mins 5 times per week when backing initially and then as they did a bit more I’d reduce the amount of days if the sessions got slightly longer.