How much for kissing spines type xrays?

I was just about to comment that it looked like an SI problem - have had two horses with problems in this area.

With my old horse the symptoms of that did come and go to some extent. Has he seen a physio as well as the vet?
 
Booboos said:
My limited understanding of KS and x-rays is that it can be a bit like navicular and x-rays, I.e. sometimes you have clear x-rays but the horse behaves as if it has KS and other times you have problematic looking x-rays but no symptoms. When Rusky was having his un diagnosed problems a KS specialist told me that without the specific symptoms and without amelioration with steroid injections he did not think it was KS despite the x-rays showing KS.

The scintigraphy is very expensive but might be more worth it diagnostically in the long run than spending smaller amounts of money and not getting an answer?
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My understanding is a little bit different. It's that if the process are not close, and are not showing marks of clashing on the x rays, then there are no kissing spines and the horse has something else wrong. But that if they show on the x rays, then the horse has them, but removing pain from them will not necessarily change the horse's behaviour because it still has pain from ulcers/SI/PSD/Spavin.


I agree about the scintigraph but not everyone can get 1200 quid together :'(
 
Yes, we have had a full blood workup (the whole 9 yards...liver function, kidney function etc etc) more than once... All absolutely totally normal, i.e. absolutely in the arithmetic centre of the normal range. He has seen a chiro/reiki person several times who didn't find anything of note. And the 'slow' video occurred in the middle of the jumping ones, so we have jumping clinic in April 14 - starting height 2 ft 9, best horse in his group, never stopped, did exactly what was required all day in an athletic & bold manner, slow vid is July 14, then jumping in the school Oct 14. Perfectly fluent jumping, no hesitation, perfectly straight. And now we're back to a July situation.

As soon as the lethargy wears off, everything comes back straight away. Half pass, extended trot strides (and he can extend quite nicely), leg yield, shoulder-in, walk-canter trans etc etc - all the toys come back online. No rhyme or reason or pattern to it. No changes in mgmt. My two live at home, so no external factors. It's a head scratcher.

T x
 
Sounds like you've investigated as thoroughly as possible but in my experience a good ACPAT physio finds very different things to a chiro. Eg in past two weeks have had a very good chiro see my horse and not find much to worry about; physio found a muscle problem in right hind very quickly - which explained problems we'd had that week. Just a thought - sounds likes this is a complex situation anyway but worth considering. Or can give you details of my holistic vet who might be able to help!
 
I feel for you, this is very frustrating.

Maybe try this, I did it with Rusky when we couldn't see the wood for the trees. I wrote a detailed history, with all exam results, treatments tried and performance videos and e-mailed specialist vets around the world. Start with a KS specialist to see if he thinks KS is worth pursuing, see where that goes but maybe an internist is another good one to consult. I found vets on the internet and every single one of them, to their immense credit, was kind enough to reply to me and help me.
 
Does he get a rest when he's lethargic? Is it the work making him, lethargic, in other words. He works ok for a few weeks then the batteries run flat, then he gets an easier time of it, then you work him more again and around it goes? If you worked him hard for three days in a good spell, how would he be at the end of three the days?

He doesn't sound like a kissing spines problem at all to me. Sorry for all the questions, but he does sound just like my friend's horse and I'm trying to close in on whether he's identical or just similar.
 
Thank you, Booboos - one idea that hadn't even occurred to me. I think that would def be worth a go.

CPT - I've been wondering if it's a post viral fatigue thing - when he was racing, he won quite a bit & was placed top 3-4 consistently, then perf dropped like a stone & he was 14th out of 15 in his last race. A BHS examiner who lives nearby & whose husband trains racehorses (i.e. ones in training, not retired ones) says that they can be viral/post-viral with normal bloods. I had it myself for 5 years after I did my finals for my first degree, following a glandular fever/fluey thing, and to me, he feels how I felt when I was ME-ey. Weak, muscles 'watery', everything feels uncomfortable & too much effort. Also with ME there is no direct link between rest & exercise & how you feel - if I was having an episode, it would take about 6 weeks of rest, lots of fruit etc to feel better. You can't just have an early night & feel better the next day - there is a long lag. Also with exertion. I could struggle on at work during the week, then was always really unwell at the w'end once I relaxed & adrenalin levels dropped.

If bullied, he will 'work through' whatever is wrong, & can produce some nice work. He needs a jump & a strong canter & will then work more or less correctly for 10 mins or so - lengthened strides, walk-canter etc. But as soon as I stop bullying him, he will 'die' and won't pick up again. This is what I found with ME - if I really had to do something, I could do it, but would then feel awful for a bit. Not just immediately after - weeks after.

Hence being treated with AloeRide super-concentrated aloe vera - good for ME-type things & also digestion in case there is an ulcer-related component (I don't think there is cos he's not irritable).

He is best if I *just* walk on a free rein & VERBALLY encourage him to trot, & don't make him if he doesn't want to. Sometimes we might get 3 strides, or sometimes half a transition, then think better of it. So if we stick to 10 mins in walk & do absolutely nothing that he doesn't want to do, after about a month, he will start wanting to trot a bit. Then it will gradually build from there.

I have read some research into ME & it says that pets with ME tend to belong to owners with ME. I hope I haven't 'given' it to him. It also said that there is some sort of biofilm floating about that can be identified, making ME a 'real' thing & not an anecdotal one.

Reading this back, I ought to start with the just walk again. Atm I'm trying to get a minute or two of trot. I don't see a prob in walking him for 10 mins - he's out all day anyway & I weigh less than 8 st, and I would just go insane with no riding at all.

T x
 
Has he been tested for Lymes Disease?

I had a mare 10 years ago who was exactly as you describe and after 2 years of hair tearing the vet suddenly suggested we test for lymes. Spot on, treated, given 6 months off and she came goodish. The down side is that she had had it for so long that it had damaged her joints and she was never competitive afterwards.

It is a horrid disease and it attacks every part of the body virtually but it is very tricky to diagnose. They do a blood test for it. Might be worth an ask.
 
Catembi, I have heard of another like yours and the insurance paid out, so it was recognised as a problem. It does sound very CFS, and I really feel for you. Both the horses I'm thinking of were, I'm sorry to say, put down because they got worse. I do hoe you find an answer.

I think the Lyme's test is a very good idea. I've had a friend who caught it in this country.
 
Good thought Booboos, friends told me that they lost some sheep to it, thought to have been in some holed haylage, so it is in this country.
 
I am pretty sure it does exist in the UK but is rare. We get it every six months! Some horses are asymptomatic, but the ones showing symptoms become thinner, lethargic, unwilling to work and generally a bit down. You need a special blood test to detect it.
 
H'mm, not sure. His dad was Soviet Star.

I've been trying a copper supplement this week as it seemed like a logical thing to go for. Zip so far. I will try it til it runs out & then not bother getting any more. He does seem to have the copper deficient coat & possibly hooves, & there are links with post viral fatigue, from the research I've been reading. Ho hum. Worth a try, like everything else I've tried.

T x
 
cptrayes said:
Good thought Booboos, friends told me that they lost some sheep to it, thought to have been in some holed haylage, so it is in this country.
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I think that may have been listeriosis any animal can get it mainly from poor haylage.In cattle it causes facial paralysis which is the most noticeable symptom.
Leptospirosis is usually spread through a bad water supply and rats can also be involved.
 
The water is the same water that comes to the house. We feed dry hay, not haylage. We have a few mice, but I've never seen any rats since we've been here.

We did our usual 10 mins this morning and (whispers so as not to jinx it) he was actually noticeably brighter. We shall see what happens tomo.

T x
 
popsdosh said:
I think that may have been listeriosis any animal can get it mainly from poor haylage.In cattle it causes facial paralysis which is the most noticeable symptom.
Leptospirosis is usually spread through a bad water supply and rats can also be involved.
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You're probably right. :)

Leptospirosis is known as Weils disease in this country, I have now read, and we definitely have that too. A speed boat racer in Bristol caught it years ago when he fell in the docks they were racing in. It's on rodent wee, apparently.
 
Yes Lepto is carried by rats/mice or any other infected animal/person in the urine. If the rat urine gets in the water supply it can stay active for a while. If the rat urinates on the hay and the horse eats it immediately then again they can become infected. If the urine dries out the lepto bacteria die so transmission from horse to human is quite tough (no recorded cases). Lepto can cause miscarriage in both animals and humans so that's something else to keep in mind (my lot got lepto during my first pregnancy and I ended up with loads of extra blood tests just in case).
 
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