How much is too much?

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AshTay

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How much would have to go wrong with a new horse before you threw in the towel and decided he wasn't right for you?

Reason I ask is because I've had some incidents with my horse and some people around me are saying that I should get rid. I'm not getting rid because I believe it's all stuff I can work through but it surprises me how easily some people think horses should be given up on. I didn't buy him as a 100% bombproof novice-ride horse and so I don't expect a 100% bombproof novice-ride horse and to not fall off.

In my case, I've had him 6 months and the incidents are:
1) him bolting and me falling off (my fault: I frightened him when on board and should have known better at that stage in our relationship).
2) him bolting with my friend on a hack (not sure why but a back examination subsequently revealed some discomfort so have attributed it to that and took steps to fix him)
3) him bolting and me falling off and then him bolting again as I was dismounting after getting back on him again (not sure why he bolted the first time but that's a whole other discussion but second time was my fault as I shouldn't have dismounted when I did).
 
I wouldn't be getting rid, but I would be having vet investigations into the bolting as it appears that is your big prob! I would def be wanting that investigated and sorted asap!
Best of luck!
 
ThePony said:
I wouldn't be getting rid, but I would be having vet investigations into the bolting as it appears that is your big prob! I would def be wanting that investigated and sorted asap!
Best of luck!
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Thanks, yes, that's what I'm doing and why I'm not getting rid. Although he has had the all-clear since the previous back issue I'm not ruling out something else not detectable by a chiro.
I was just wondering how much other people tolerated from a new horse.
 
Define 'bolting' ;)

It's just that I have seen so many different things described as bolting (even just speeding up slightly or pissing off for a couple of strides) but none of them are what I consider to be a true bolt ie, horse in a total blind panic with no regard for self preservation and no chance of the rider stopping/slowing/turning the horse.
 
I wouldn't get rid, its one issue only to solve.
Whilst it could be pain related, it also could be just behavioural. I had a gelding who bolted, also used to take off whilst you tried to mount. He'd done it to his previous owner and had quickly learnt it scared the hell out of her and he no longer had to work.

But be careful, on one bolting incident he put in a mighty buck as well and I came flying off and bust my leg in 9 places, then I quit and got rid, he was a complete and utter pee taker :(
 
TBH it sounds like you've had a pretty hard time. But it also sounds as though in most cases you know there was something (scary or painful) that happended to casue the incidents.

There is a 'getting to know you' period with any animal and, whilst some are obviously a lot easier than others, it doesn't sound as though this is a 'bad' horse.

Whether the two of you will get to be suited is another matter but much easier to tell once the back pain is sorted and you have more confidence in each other (you may need an instuctor/friend/whoever around for a while to help build this.)
 
When he "bolts" it comes out of nowhere and his head comes right up and he just panics and goes and keeps going. I've not sat either bolt long enough to know if I could get him back to me but my friend did (on account of him only going in a straight line). He's a spooky eejit at the best of times but is also a real sweetie and tries so hard so when he has gone it's seemed to come out of the blue. The first time he went was because I insisted on someone passing me a plastic bottle to swig water out of totally misreading the signs that he wasn't coping with it and knowing he has a mortal fear of all things plastic (working on that). I want to get vet out and maybe get an xray as on the other two occasions it's come out of nowhere which could be an issue such as KS and there are other aspects of his behaviour which lead me to suspect this.

He *might*be taking the pee but then I feel he'd do it more often and at times when he might think there's somethig to act out against but they're not. A week before the latest incident we'd had a lesson where he tried really hard for me and didn't put a foot wrong. But last sunday we'd only really walked round a bit and then i asked for trot and it was like someone had zapped him and off he went.

I'm still not sure what the best plan of action is. Vet obviously but I do feel like I need to at least sit on him again for my own sanity and so he knows he hasn't "won" retirement. He has been lunged since but I had concussion and only now do I feel up to getting back on.
 
I am not sure what I would do in this situation as I feel I would probably be easily put off by several bolts. But again, it depends what you mean by bolt. One of my horses takes off if you get too fast in canter, or if someone overtakes - its not what I call a bolt, and causes no problems if you are on gallops or something, but generally hacking out, it is a nighmare, as you just can't stop and he is not good at any undulations or change in surface. Its a scary experience, although he isn't panicking. Used to annoy me when a couple of other liveries would want to hack out with me, and I would want to go alone (to prevent the taking off!) they would be adament that they will stay behind but would invariably try to come past and I would pull up. Once we were on suitablly long stretch of good going and so i didn;t pull up and off he went. They were shocked and changed their attitudes after that.

If it is a full on panic mode type bolt, I would be sticking to the school and investigating further. Can you contact previous owners to see if there is a history?
 
Tickles said:
TBH it sounds like you've had a pretty hard time. But it also sounds as though in most cases you know there was something (scary or painful) that happended to casue the incidents.

There is a 'getting to know you' period with any animal and, whilst some are obviously a lot easier than others, it doesn't sound as though this is a 'bad' horse.

Whether the two of you will get to be suited is another matter but much easier to tell once the back pain is sorted and you have more confidence in each other (you may need an instuctor/friend/whoever around for a while to help build this.)
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Thank you. Other than these incidents he's been fab! He is spooky and nervous and very green but also honest and tries hard and is a lovely person to be around. I have an instructor who says she thinks I ride him very well and he'll be a lovely horse with more work. Just need to sort this issue out.
 
Brandy said:
If it is a full on panic mode type bolt, I would be sticking to the school and investigating further. Can you contact previous owners to see if there is a history?
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It's this. I'm in touch with his previous owners. They said he might bolt if the rider didn't have control when he spooks but when he just spooks it's more a splayed legs bambi kind of thing he does. I've hacked him out dozens of times in company and had just started hacking him out on his own when this happened (in a field where our "dressage arena" is and where he'd previously been more chilled than in our sandschool).
 
Ah well, in that case, how is he to lead out? Or is he any better if you follow someone on foot? My idiot welsh is variable (I was going to say hopeless but he has improved!) hacking on his own, and did bolt with me once after seeing a terrifying girl pushing a bike towards us. To be hontest, I think it only got as far as a bolt as I had no stirrups and was about to get off. Otherwise I think it would have been a shoot along for two or three strides. Wasn;t a real problems as we were on a grass track on the river bank so nice and straight, and he pulled up after a few hundred yards (i was more concerned at staying on given I had the show saddle on....!)

I would just avoid hacking alone for the time being, go in company, if he is good to lead out in hand do that, and then try to get someone to come on foot or pushbike so he has someone to follow.
 
Brandy said:
Ah well, in that case, how is he to lead out? Or is he any better if you follow someone on foot? My idiot welsh is variable (I was going to say hopeless but he has improved!) hacking on his own, and did bolt with me once after seeing a terrifying girl pushing a bike towards us. To be hontest, I think it only got as far as a bolt as I had no stirrups and was about to get off. Otherwise I think it would have been a shoot along for two or three strides. Wasn;t a real problems as we were on a grass track on the river bank so nice and straight, and he pulled up after a few hundred yards (i was more concerned at staying on given I had the show saddle on....!)

I would just avoid hacking alone for the time being, go in company, if he is good to lead out in hand do that, and then try to get someone to come on foot or pushbike so he has someone to follow.
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I've lead him out a lot to build up to hacking out on his own and he's fine. Had a tendency to plant and refuse to move for a while but this happened less and less as his confidence increased. He's bolted in company on a hack (incident #2) - away from his friends who were all just bimbling along. She bought him back to us and he seemed ok for a minute or so but then just started getting more and more wound up (nothing obvious nearby to react to) and she ended up just getting off and then he settled right down. And was fine since - until last Sunday! So being in company didn't help that time. The last time I fell off (as I was dismounting) was very similar to your situation. I should have waited until I knew he was totally relaxed and then got off but I was a bit shaky from having already fallen off ten minutes before.
 
Your horse sounds very similar to one bought by my daughter's friend. He scared his owner so much she wouldn't get back on him after a nasty fall when he bolted. My duaghter who is a competent rider who events her own horses, took him on for a while and he had all the back/teeth etc stuff done. Whilst he improved he could never be trusted and random things would set him off. My daughter had an accident with him when he flipped out and she really could have been killed - won't go into detail, but it was very nasty. Friend got rid of horse back to dealer. My point is - if it had been up to me he'd have gone back after the first time he did it. Horses are for pleasure and whilst I know you can have a fall/accident with any horse, I won't have a dangerous one near me -and I don't really care what the horse's 'issues' are either - if it's behaviour is dangerous I don't want it. So my advice is to think carefully about this horse before you get hurt. Good luck with whatever you decide to do.
 
This is not directed at you personally - but at anyone who sells a horse with problems.

I think the issue for me, is not how long you put up with it, but what you ultimately do about it. What concerns me the most about horses who have behavioural problems is that in the end the owners decide they have had enough and then sell them, usually to a dealer, so the horse gets passed on to another unsuspecting person.
 
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BigRed said:
This is not directed at you personally - but at anyone who sells a horse with problems.

I think the issue for me, is not how long you put up with it, but what you ultimately do about it. What concerns me the most about horses who have behavioural problems is that in the end the owners decide they have had enough and then sell them, usually to a dealer, so the horse gets passed on to another unsuspecting person.
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I totally agree. He's not being sold on. He's my horse, my responsibility. If I have to lead him out in hand like a big dog for the foreseeable before I can be sure he can be trusted then so be it.

I would like to re-emphasise though that 99% of the time he's fantastic! I honestly don't think he has it in him to be nasty for no reason so I intend to get to the bottom of it.
 
I've had the works off my lad, would sod off whilst mounting, then spooking/ bolting cos I'm not on properly and scared the crap out of himself, on faster gaits he'd end up sodding off for what appeared to be no reason. Turns out he had deep sulcus thrush, the sodding off and not standing still was all to do with the pain in his frogs.
I've had people tell me to get rid,shoot it etc. But I've stuck it out and worked through every possible problem, and treated and now my lad is perfect ! Stands for mounting, isnt sodding off at drop off a hat and generally is a total joy to ride, now he isn't anticipating/feeling pain.
I'm not saying this is the problem with yours but check it out just in case. Its taken 2 years to work my lads problems out :)
 
Just read your thread, directed here from your response to my post on the 'brave' thread.....:)

Just sounds to me like your boy lacks confidence....and panics? If its any consolation I did a lot of leading about like a big dog too...it really seemed to help. Mine too is great about 99% of the time...he will never be an 'easy' ride- far too forward and fizzy and needs a lot of reassurance and help to relax but now he really trusts me and he will do almost anything for me.....previous owners couldnt get him off the yard- he's hacking out now alone- over motorway foot bridges, past tractors - he's even started to learn jumping having got over a fear of literally anything on the floor- road markings were a nightmare at one point:eek:

I never even contemplated selling him on or giving up on him....I just never put a time limit on when things should be sorted by. I've had him a year almost and I'm sure others would have got results quicker ...but I'm happy with our relationship. From running away and refusing to be caught he comes to call .....and looks most put out if I've actually gone in to get one of the others and not him:)

BTW....I wouldn't call myself an expert or anything remotely like...my riding leaves a lot to be desired (well - I think so) ....I just used a bit of common 'horse' sense and patience. Helps that I have my own place and don't have to run the gauntlet of other 'helpful' liveries though.:)
 
What's his behavior like most of the time?

Say like, the sun's out, he's got company, there's no exciting/stressful stuff going on at the yard, etc. When he's shouldn't be on edge or in a situation he's finding too much for him, is he then sensible and do you feel comfortable on him? If yes then I think stick with it, build on that relationship taking care what situations you put him in and don't chop and change jockeys, he needs to trust you. You should then find, if you take things a step at a time as he has more confidence in you, he will cope with more and more without panicking.

If, on the other hand, he is bolting regularly for no reason beyond being asked to do something vaguely useful, IMO give up now, he ain't worth getting hurt for and there are many more horses out there that will reward your time money and effort a million times over if given the chance.
 
Fairytale - thank you! It helps that he's very beautiful and a really lovely horse to be around.

littlescallywag - thanks you - it's got to be pain with my boy. It doesn't make sense otherwise.

poppymoo - thank you for seeking out the thread! I don't have a time limit either - we've got no set plans. I have vague hopes of doing local RC dressage next year with him but I'm not competitive and get my kicks from bringing horses on.

_flame - definitely the former. The three incidents I described were the only ones. He's already come so far in his schooling and confidence since I got him that I find it hard to believe that these episodes are him being an *rse. He has tested me in his own little cheeky ways but the bolts are like being on a different horse!! He's been in some situations where, knowing how he is, I would have expected him to react badly and he has reacted but not panicked and bolted.

I sometimes feel like I'm making excuses for him but when he can be so good 99% of the time it's hard to believe that he'd be so extreme the other 1% of the time without good reason.

ETA: no one else rides him now. I won't put anyone else at risk until this problem is sorted and also he's a very sensitive lad and the last thing I need is him being upset by other people riding him.
 
AshTay said:
poppymoo - thank you for seeking out the thread! I don't have a time limit either - we've got no set plans. I have vague hopes of doing local RC dressage next year with him but I'm not competitive and get my kicks from bringing horses on.

_
.
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Me too. I'm so chuffed with him but as I didn't really let on to OH how bad he was .....he can't understand why I'm so pleased with him;)
 
BigRed said:
This is not directed at you personally - but at anyone who sells a horse with problems.

I think the issue for me, is not how long you put up with it, but what you ultimately do about it. What concerns me the most about horses who have behavioural problems is that in the end the owners decide they have had enough and then sell them, usually to a dealer, so the horse gets passed on to another unsuspecting person.
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Actually I agree with you and if he had been my horse he'd have been shot - because I like horses and he was going to end up being sold over and over or being beaten up. I wouldn't have wanted that for him, but neither would I have kept him. However the decision wasn't mine to make.
 
Because I had some really lovely and helpful responses to this post, here is an update if anyone's interested...

I did get back on him a couple of times and just bimbled down the drive and walked round the arena where we had the last incident and he was fine. More for my own sanity and to stop him thinking he'd earned retirement.

I had the vet out to look him over. By this time he'd been out of work for about 6 weeks so had lost the little condition he had. She noted this lack of condition and also some slight lameness behind in canter and we've decided to give him the winter off (I work full time so working him/riding confined to weekend) and then bring him back in the spring and re-assess the lameness and condition after he's been in lunging/fittening work for a couple of weeks (he's had a SI strain in the past we think which may account for the problem behind but it was so inconsistent and slight there was no point investigating at this stage).

So I'm using the winter to really work on his brain and our bond. He hacks out in-hand at weekend and I work with him with a clicker in his stable in the week. After doing this for about 2 weeks he will now let me touch his shoulder with a carrier bag -a big step for a horse who needed peeling off the far wall at the mere sound of anything plastic.

Baby steps.
 
Sounds like a good plan :) What a lucky boy he is to have such a patient and understanding Mother! Keep up the good work - just a thought having read the recent threads re Communicators/Reiki.......may be worth a try? I certainly wouldn't totally rule it out ;)

Fairy
 
Well done for trying.

The more people tell you to give up, the more you'll fight for him.

I had the sleepless nights, the worry and the stress of being a difficult horse owner and I'm so pleased we worked through it. It took 2 years if I'm honest and she was bad in all ways, ridden and on the ground.

She's fab now and I would not swop her for the world. Oddly enough though I have fallen off her more times recently that I ever did 2 years ago? That's because she gives me confidence and I try do more than I am capable of. She's so sweet that she'll look at me on the floor as if to say, "What you doing now?" and wait for me to get up ,bless her:)

Keep yourself safe whatever you do and good luck.
 
Good for you. If you are giving the winter off can you go for lessons? Reason I ask is that I've wintered mine off both last 2 years (due weather) and my confidence has been well and truly shot down to zero after the break. Just a thought.....
 
AshTay said:
It's this. I'm in touch with his previous owners. They said he might bolt if the rider didn't have control when he spooks but when he just spooks it's more a splayed legs bambi kind of thing he does. I've hacked him out dozens of times in company and had just started hacking him out on his own when this happened (in a field where our "dressage arena" is and where he'd previously been more chilled than in our sandschool).
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Could he have been taught this?
If you spook you get hit with a whip, which then turns quickly into bolting?

I did know a dressage horse that was like this, when it used to spook it got belted, so it then started spooking and doing a runner, did eventually end up in the rider quitting for several years, think the rider came off and by that point had a family to think about.
This horse was a bit of an ar$ehole and whilst I don't condone what the rider done if it had been mine I would have probably wanted to give it a thumped as well, but after watching what this horse learned it would certainly make me think twice about reprimanding over a spook, now more likely to give a dig in the ribs with my heel and tell them to get on with it.
Not sure how you would go about undoing this if it's something similar.
 
Naryafluffy said:
Could he have been taught this?
If you spook you get hit with a whip, which then turns quickly into bolting?

I did know a dressage horse that was like this, when it used to spook it got belted, so it then started spooking and doing a runner, did eventually end up in the rider quitting for several years, think the rider came off and by that point had a family to think about.
This horse was a bit of an ar$ehole and whilst I don't condone what the rider done if it had been mine I would have probably wanted to give it a thumped as well, but after watching what this horse learned it would certainly make me think twice about reprimanding over a spook, now more likely to give a dig in the ribs with my heel and tell them to get on with it.
Not sure how you would go about undoing this if it's something similar.
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He doesn't generally bolt when he spooks. The bolting and the spooks seem to occur separately. Usually he spooks and wobbles on the spot but then gets over it. The bolt he did when I took the plastic bottle on board I don't think would have made it to a bolt if the bottle hadn't come into his "space". He doesn't use spooking as an excuse to p-off.
 
scarymare said:
Good for you. If you are giving the winter off can you go for lessons? Reason I ask is that I've wintered mine off both last 2 years (due weather) and my confidence has been well and truly shot down to zero after the break. Just a thought.....
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I've also got a little arab mare that I'm now having my lessons on so she's keeping me ticking over, as it were. She copes fine with doing nothing all week and then having a (relatively easy) 30 minute lesson and a hack at the weekends. My gelding just has no condition if he's not worked most days which is why I'm wintering him off.

But I'll still be a nervous wreck when it comes to getting back on him in the spring. Even though i've had way more good rides on him than bad (3 bad rides vs tens of good rides!!) :confused:
 
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