How Much Pain Do We Really Inflict On Our Horse Daily?

I only inflict pain of any level on my horse if they do the same to me . Ie I'll give em a smack if they bite me. I will yank a head collar but I've tried it in me and it doesn't hurt me.... This is a very emotive thread but are horses so forgiving that they when turned out in a 20 acre field will come to me without being summoned and follow me round whilst I'm sorting fences etc... There the comparison with the school yard bully breaks down . At most ,most horses are in actual human contact for 1 to 2 hours out of 24 ... And mine seem to want that... What is more they are jealous and demanding when one of the others is getting said attention... If it was a horrible experience for them, I doubt they would be trying to attract my attention when I was busy 'hurting' the other one - I don't think horses are that altruistic .
 
Well, if pain isn't quite the right word, how about discomfort? Horses are very stoic, I see discomfort in horses from bad rugging, shoeing, being unshod, not so great riding, saddle fit, from rough/loud handling of the horse etc etc
how horses treat each other isn't relevant, we aren't horses and we choose to do what we do with them. I know I am sounding like a hippy and am guilty of all the above at some time or another over 35 years of being around them. Reflecting on how we do things is never bad.
 
You could look at in another way of how much pain do we save our horses from such as stones in the feet that we remove, cold that we protect from, hunger, painkillers if necessary,flies......
As owners most of us do our best, there may be trade offs such as hitting the odd pole but we try and make our horses as painfree , healthy and happy as possible.
 
I think there are very, very few horses in the UK that have never known or are free from any pain, both physical and mental, inflicted by humans and sadly the horses have very little choice. Some will fight the pain but the majority just give up and accept their lot in life. I get tired of hearing that bits, whips, spurs and all the other so called training aids do not inflict pain or are only as painful as the hands that use them - absolute rubbish. They are designed to make the horse do as we bid - enough said.
 
Interesting the spectrum of opinions on here. Sadly, I think there are a great many people at the lower end of that spectrum who never consult others, or question themselves and those are the ones who do quite often inflict pain. Look at Rollkur, or the plethora of gadgets you see some horses wearing, those are painful and the horse does not have the opportunity to rid himself of them, unlike a yanked headcollar when he has crossed a boundary and been greedy - all he has to do is lead politely and there is no pain. I think most of us would be unhappy about inflicting pain or discomfort that is constant and OP, your colleague may not have intended it but how good that he has caused you to look at things from your horse's viewpoint. At the end of the day that is all we can do really.
 
sandy3924 said:
I get tired of hearing that bits, whips, spurs and all the other so called training aids do not inflict pain or are only as painful as the hands that use them - absolute rubbish. They are designed to make the horse do as we bid - enough said.
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No. Not enough said. That logic doesn't hold water. Headcollars are designed to make the horse do as we bid too - do they hurt the horse? Or post and rail fencing around a paddock to make the horse stay in the field (as we bid). Laws make me do as the government bids, but they don't hurt me... A growl makes my dog do as he's told, but doesn't hurt him. The list is endless, and frankly, this argument against bits/spurs/whips is facile.

I do use bits, spurs and whips and my horse still chooses to spend time with me. What's that all about? Stockholm syndrome?
 
sandy3924 said:
I think there are very, very few horses in the UK that have never known or are free from any pain, both physical and mental, inflicted by humans and sadly the horses have very little choice. Some will fight the pain but the majority just give up and accept their lot in life. I get tired of hearing that bits, whips, spurs and all the other so called training aids do not inflict pain or are only as painful as the hands that use them - absolute rubbish. They are designed to make the horse do as we bid - enough said.
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Dread to think how you use bits, whips and spurs. Depends how you use the equipment, I certainly do not inflict pain on my horses. Think 'communication' rather than force.
 
JFTD said:
I do use bits, spurs and whips and my horse still chooses to spend time with me. What's that all about? Stockholm syndrome?
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Maybe you smell like carrots :D Seriously though, yes I do think we inflict pain on our horses to a certain degree (to the poster who put a bit in their mouth, that's not the same as the bit sits on the bars of a horses mouth and is not grabbed by the teeth - or shouldn't be). Pain shouldn't be just thought of as physical either as horses obviously do suffer from mental pain/stress. Of course they feel the bit, the spurs, the whip etc it's unrealistic to think otherwise but at what point does the horse find it painful? Horses twitch to dislodge flies because they anticipate irritation/a bite not because a fly landing on them is painful, so although their skin is sensitive that analogy (on its own) doesn't work for me.
 
Love the big division on opinions!

Have I caused pain to my horses at any time? Undoubtedly. Was it deliberate ..no..did I take steps to remedy it..yes. I inflict pain on myself by accident as well. Who hasn't overdone it in a gym class or pushed themselves too hard? Pain is a way of your body or your horse saying something's not right so fix it.

I choose to ride in small spurs. It suits this horse and I don't have to nag. Would never have dreamed of wearing them on my mare. My gelding is super sensitive so wears a lot of dead sheep. My mare never needed it. I work out what I need to do and what works as I go along. Sometimes I make mistakes, but on a day to day basis, I think my horses are pretty comfortable and happy. I bought a horse a while back who was pretty tolerant. His owner had done a good job of the basics. I felt he wasn't quite comfortable in his mouth and when I got him back had a really good look inside and feel around. Turned out he had a massively thick tongue which had been drawn behind the bit for so long he had a doorstep in his tongue. Not obvious unless you really opened his mouth and looked at the back. Did his owner mean to hurt him? Of course not. She took excellent care so this would be an oversight. Taught me a lot about bitting horses though.
 
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How much pain does a bit cause? One study showed the following (per 1 sq. cm. of mouth
surface) :
" for drawing, from 50 to 100 kg; - for an average
force jerk, from 180 to 220 kg; - for a strong
jerk: over 300 kg.
‘Drawing’ may be understood as ‘standard’ contact
to the mouth via the reins ie taking up contact to
put the horse on the bit. An ‘average force jerk’
may be understood as the type of rein action seen
when used to slow a stronger horse showjumping,
or one ‘evading’ contact in the warm up area in
dressage. A ‘strong jerk’ may understood as the rein
action seen when controlling a very strong horse
across country/or getting a headstrong horse ‘under
control’
It isn’t true that ‘an ounce in the hand is an ounce in
the mouth’. Part of the reason is because of the very
small contact point made by the mouthpiece to the
jaw…small contact points increase pressure"

The bit sits above the trigeminal nerve in the horse's jaw. The potential to cause excruciating pain is there.
 
Spring Feather said:
Because it's a title and it's correct to do this (minus short words like "of" or "the" etc) :)
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FfionWinnie said:
I don't think so, not in the UK anyway.
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Yep, I'm English, in England and was taught capital letters for titles except for short words. I occasionally wonder why most people don't do it, actually (sorry that's a bit sad, but I do).

Regarding the horse - pain thing. Where does pressure overlap into discomfort and where does discomfort overlap into pain? Its all part of our animal owning/ enslaving/ using/ controlling which is socially acceptable and what we humans have always done. Deep down we know its not really quite right but we enjoy it so much and the animals play the game so we can carry on.
 
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ahh the good old, horses can feel a fly land on them so therefore they must be sensitive arguement, i can feel a fly land on my skin too, i can feel spiders webs that are lighter than air stick to my face too (yuck) ! but i can also scratch my skin with my nails when i have an itch and this is a different sensation but not painful. different nerves respond to different stimuli which is why we can feel a fly land on us but also withstand much higher degrees of touch. same for horses and indeed all animals.
For those who are convinced that we cause horses pain in everything we do with them the answer is simple, give up horses and riding!
 
Well I think the same could be said of humans, I've certainly known physical and mental pain, it's part of being alive. Yes, domestication is about getting horses to do our bidding, there's not a lot of point to domestication if they don't but are you suggesting that horses in the wild don't suffer pain? If you are, personally I find that suggestion completely preposterous. Wild horses suffer disease, have accidents and injuries, just like domesticated horses the difference is that they get no treatment and will often die young and in considerable pain. They also starve to death, get preyed upon by other animals and if they have the misfortune to be a colt,will be cast out by the dominant stallion, usually with a bloody good kicking to boot. There are good owners and there are those who through ignorance and sometimes sadly deliberate cruelty fail to give horses the proper care they need, but to suggest that most suffer cruelty and pain, is an insult to the vast majority of owners.
sandy3924 said:
I think there are very, very few horses in the UK that have never known or are free from any pain, both physical and mental, inflicted by humans and sadly the horses have very little choice. Some will fight the pain but the majority just give up and accept their lot in life. I get tired of hearing that bits, whips, spurs and all the other so called training aids do not inflict pain or are only as painful as the hands that use them - absolute rubbish. They are designed to make the horse do as we bid - enough said.
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For me , I never force my horse to do anything , i.e I don't use any pressure or pain ( mental or physical ) , I don't use whips/bridles/spurs/bits ... well let me put it this way , I don't use much . When we ride , it is bridless , when we go for a walk I may put on a halter , or I may put on a neck rope . If I do put on a halter , then I am 10000% careful that I never let the slack go on the rope . But this is because I want my horses to be intentional agent with an opinion . My horses will do something they don't want to , if i ask them , but purely because i don't until i really have to ( an accident or something ) this means my emergency cues are strong and they will listen to me . This also means that sometimes my horses do something they don't really want to do , but they do it because i want to , and it goes the other way as well .

To me all i have to do is look at the threads about horses that wont be caught , but are once on the lead rope they are ( and i quote ) a '' dope-on-a-rope '' .Pressure based control , or pressure and release conditioning on the horse is how human beings have controlled them for centuries , and frankly this day and age is a lot better for horses than it was is history , but it could be a lot better . As is i see this day and age horse keeping ( be it riding or anything else ) involves the usage of as little pressure as possible to produce the action the humans want . There are a few people in the world , who like me , have decided on a different way to keep and interact with horses ( i do not mean ''natural horsemanship in anyway , what i talk about is a change in philosophy and mind state ), and i would be over joyed to see more people changing , or at least recognising what they are doing .

To me , pressure is the precedent of pain , just like smoke means a fire .
 
I don't really like bits TBH. They are horrible things. But if I want to compete in dressage then I have to use one. I guess if I cared about it that much I would choose not to compete. It's one of those things I feel kind of bad about but do anyway. Like when I used to eat meat. I felt kind of bad about it but still did it anyway. I gave up eating meat ten years ago and feel better for it. I am still hoping that BD will eventually allow bitless riding and I will not eventually feel I must give it up. I don't wear spurs, but think if used correctly and on a responsive horse they do not have to be painful. But I just have never felt the need (except when they are a competition requirement - which is another stupid rule IMO). I use a whip if needed to back up my leg but hate the use of it to chastise horses. And I have smacked horses when they have been aggressive, but with things that will startle them rather than cause pain. For example when a youngster reared and boxed at me in the field then I rapped his legs and chest with a feed bowl (one of those rhino trugs). Certainly did the trick, but cause him pain, no way.
 
Regandal said:
How much pain does a bit cause? One study showed the following (per 1 sq. cm. of mouth
surface) :
" for drawing, from 50 to 100 kg; - for an average
force jerk, from 180 to 220 kg; - for a strong
jerk: over 300 kg.
‘Drawing’ may be understood as ‘standard’ contact
to the mouth via the reins ie taking up contact to
put the horse on the bit. An ‘average force jerk’
may be understood as the type of rein action seen
when used to slow a stronger horse showjumping,
or one ‘evading’ contact in the warm up area in
dressage. A ‘strong jerk’ may understood as the rein
action seen when controlling a very strong horse
across country/or getting a headstrong horse ‘under
control’
It isn’t true that ‘an ounce in the hand is an ounce in
the mouth’. Part of the reason is because of the very
small contact point made by the mouthpiece to the
jaw…small contact points increase pressure"

The bit sits above the trigeminal nerve in the horse's jaw. The potential to cause excruciating pain is there.
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Sorry, are you suggesting an actual scientific study is reporting force measured in kilograms? Lol...
 
This thread seems to be assuming that everyone hangs onto or yanks on the bit. Is lightness of hands and an independent seat not taught anymore?
 
cobgoblin said:
This thread seems to be assuming that everyone hangs onto or yanks on the bit. Is lightness of hands and an independent seat not taught anymore?
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Well unfortunately whilst the BHS still seems to teach that holding onto the horse in front and pushing it into a firm contact is the correct way to ride, then no. :(
 
Of course bits exert pressure and can inflict pain, that's how they work. It's also how bitless bridles work, the pressure is just on a different place. And spurs. And whips. And your legs and seat. Just because they can doesn't mean they do; this is the epitome of well-educated horsemanship - how to ride and handle horses so that you understand you do not have to utilise the ultimate power that you have over the horse. When you can do this, you are a horseman. Not too many of those around unfortunately, which is a matter to be pondered.
 
Wagtail said:
Well unfortunately whilst the BHS still seems to teach that holding onto the horse in front and pushing it into a firm contact is the correct way to ride, then no. :(
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Eek! I didn't realise they were doing that, explains quite a lot though!
 
Myamazinghorsey said:
Not starting an argument but in my opinion bits hurt the horses mouth doesn't matter how soft you are would you like a piece of metal in your mouth? I thought not bitless all the way👍😏
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Hackamores can be far more damaging in heavy hands, that is why they are effective, except the useless ones that have no poll or curb action - and they're not safe for the training level of most horses.
 
Wagtail said:
Have I missed where it says 'force'? I thought we were talking about kg/square cm?
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Yes it is - but it's reporting it in a completely unscientific fashion - it is describing the force in terms of kg / cm sq which makes me question the veracity of their research.
 
lastchancer said:
Hackamores can be far more damaging in heavy hands, that is why they are effective, except the useless ones that have no poll or curb action - and they're not safe for the training level of most horses.
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I don't understand why people think hackamores are more severe. If you take the standard English hackamore with its wide fleece lined bearing surface, correctly positioned above the soft part of the nose, how is this anywhere near as severe as a thin piece of metal on the thin gums of the mouth, bearing in mind that the hackamore is also cushioned by a good layer of face fur? I know it has a leverage action, but so do many bits.
 
Well, i have no qualms about giving the (very big) youngster a sharp sting when he attempts to bite - and before all the behaviourist types pile in, he continually tries to bite every horse, pony, human and indeed inanimate object he sees as the moment. It's a phase he needs to learn to grow out of.

On the other hand I continually have a low level worry about the possibility of pain from tack, feet, arthritis, joints...you name it! Probably from spending too much time reading about problems, to be perfectly honest.

And on a third hand, if that were possible, I felt awful when the old mare had to be twitched by the vet in order to get some blood the other day. It really was most unpleasant for her, even if it was for her own good.
 
Wagtail said:
I don't understand why people think hackamores are more severe. If you take the standard English hackamore with its wide fleece lined bearing surface, correctly positioned above the soft part of the nose, how is this anywhere near as severe as a thin piece of metal on the thin gums of the mouth, bearing in mind that the hackamore is also cushioned by a good layer of face fur? I know it has a leverage action, but so do many bits.
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The main pressure from a shanked hackamore (which includes the "English") is actually on the chin groove, just like a curb bit. It is precisely because it is padded that it tends to be used injudiciously as the effect is so diffuse as to be almost meaningless to the horse and therefore it doesn't work very well. The mechanical hackamores are even more harsh as the pressure is more localised and the shanks are longer, and fixed. Just because the pressure has been taken outside the mouth does not make it "kinder".
 
IME of riding many horses in the English Hackamore, without exception all have appeared more comfortable in it and have gone much better both schooling and hacking. The only reason I have stopped using it in the past is because some horses are too strong in it than a snaffle. Hence if I need more brakes, then I will use a snaffle. This tells me that the English hackamore is milder than a snaffle. I can accept that other hackamores such as the German hackamore which have a much smaller bearing surface and longer shanks could be very harsh in the wrong hands.
 
Wagtail said:
IME of riding many horses in the English Hackamore, without exception all have appeared more comfortable in it and have gone much better both schooling and hacking. The only reason I have stopped using it in the past is because some horses are too strong in it than a snaffle. Hence if I need more brakes, then I will use a snaffle. This tells me that the English hackamore is milder than a snaffle. I can accept that other hackamores such as the German hackamore which have a much smaller bearing surface and longer shanks could be very harsh in the wrong hands.
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Dunno if I'd call it milder........less effective, less precise (not that a snaffle is precise) certainly. Many horses go better in a curb action than in a pinch action, perhaps because it suits their mouth/head conformation and understanding of the aid. Others respond to different areas of pressure; depends on the horse, the rider, the activity, the training, all sorts of things.
 
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