How much professional assistance to have when training?

HotToTrot

HotToTrot

Well-Known Member
Joined
23 November 2009
Messages
1,911
Visit site
Hello!

In order to progress, most of us need lessons from a pro. BUT, is there a point where having too much help becomes somehow "against the spirit of the sport"? If so, what is that point?

For those of you who've managed to avoid my baby-and-horse eventing reports, horse and I started doing BE Novice this yr. We've had some double clears and some placings, but I've reached one inescapable conclusion. To be really competitive next yr, I need to nail the absolute bejesus out of my dressage. By a factor of about 10%.

Horse and I are right at the top of our skill set in the DR now. I don't know how to ride him any better, and he doesn't know how to go any better, so clearly we will be having lessons, but the question is, how many and at what sort of intensity?

If I had, for example, weekly or fortnightly lessons through the winter, and/or horse was schooled every two or three weeks, I've no doubt that I'd see a material improvement in our marks. But it would leave me wondering what, exactly, I was bringing to the table. If I'm lessoned to within an inch of my life in the DR, then any improvement in that phase isn't really down to me. Horse is an established showjumper and I won't improve him in that phase; rather, I aspire to ride sufficiently well as to not hinder him too much! XC... Well.... I've not had much assistance with that, though I do have jumping lessons quite frequently and we work on XC- style scenarios. But he is so honest and easy to ride that I really only had to teach him about ditches, water and skinnies and then he did the rest.

So.... is there a point at which the puritan in you would say that your achievements are diminished, because you have had too much professional assistance for it to be your own work?

Caveat: I'm not sufficiently principled or puritanical to mind too much whether it's my own work..... But interested to hear others' views!
 
No frankly - I think you are over thinking it!
I would do everything in my power to get improvement and become a better rider. I would love to go to Germany and ride schoolmasters for a week.

Now lets look at the professionals:
Andrew Nicholson has someone regularly schooling his horses on the flat, WFP sends horses away for the winter for dressage drilling with Lizzie Murray. Mary King sent her daughter away to get decent experience over the winter with several trainers. Pippa Funnell lived with Ruth Mcmullen for 9 years (one of the best eyes in the business) and now lives with another amazing set in her husband! Ginny Leng had lessons with Dot Willis daily everything was done under the eye of her mother or Dot. Yogi Breisner seems to live at Laura Colletts. These are just a few off the top of my head.

If you want to improve, you need to do everything in your power to make it happen. I do not see how its cheating or diminishing what you do. I would rather see good professional help than the blind leading the blind.
 
I think you're wonderful for caring! Take all the help you can, eventing is incredibly tough to be good at and you still have to ride it on the day no matter how much help you've had. You are clearly working hard at it and you are the one with the guts to kick on round decent enough XC! Good luck with improving the dressage!
 
If Al could have a lesson every day with her instructor I think she would, with at least weekly lessons with her SJ instructor too. She says the only caveat in that would be needing time between lessons to develop your own feel. But then, riding under supervision would enable that too...

I think there's this huge (and frankly mental) thing lots of people have against regular, good lessons and I don't get why. I can count on my fingers the competitions Al has been to this year with Reg so she can afford to have the weekly lesson/ monthly extra SJ clinic that she has. If you want to improve, you need someone to show you how to IMO...
 
I agree with the posts above.

I don't think there is any way that professional training diminishes your own achievements. No amount of teaching will make you a better rider if you don't work hard at it, and if you do, and you ride the horse better, then you're entitled to all the credit for doing it! No professional gets to the top without a lot of regular support and training, it is not purely a natural gift.

I think it may be a slightly different discussion if you are talking about having someone else do a lot of the schooling to improve your horse - though even then, plenty of pros enlist the help of others, and ultimately, no horse sport is a level playing field - it will always favour those who can invest in horse power, training etc - so why not take the advantages you can?
 
You're just being silly, assuming that anybody competing at high levels gets there n talent alone, they don't and everyone needs lessons to improve.
 
I think your missing the point a little, you say that right now you and your horse are at the top of your skill set, dressage wise. Regular lessons will just increase and improve your skill set and therefore enable you to do the same for your horse. I dont see the difference between wishing to improve your improve your dressage and having your frequent jumping lessons? Also, you said you needed to teach your horse about ditches, skinnies etc, so why not teach your horse shoulder-in, half pass etc? I dont think its about being drilled, more a case of improving and increasing your skill set, which is just educating yourself to be a better rider, and thats just making things better for your horse. Go have lessons, and be even better next season, but please dont stop writing your brilliant reports - i love them!!!
 
I'm amazed at the idea that education is something someone does to/for you, rather than something you do for yourself and make your own.

I don't know anyone who has got good at anything without a lot of education. I would even say that most very good riders I know have had, at some point, daily supervision. It may not have been formal instruction but they have gained their knowledge from someone who has been there before.

Yes, you can experiment on your own but practice doesn't make perfect, it makes permanent. How do you know you're practising the right things if you don't have outside input, preferably from people with a more developed skill set? Added, in horse sports, that every extra circle or jump is wear and tear on the horse - a fact that becomes more important the further up you go. You could argue that if there is a quicker and easier to get where you need to go, you owe it to the horse.
 
Last edited:
Training is not just an investment in that 10 % improvment you want but it's a investment in your future you bank that knowledge now and it's there invested for the horses in your future .
I love training more than competing in truth I always have but now I will happily admit it.
 
Frankly, I think you are over-analysing this, and have quite an odd approach to taking lessons.

When you have lessons you are not a passive sack of potatoes on the horse which the instructor and horse 'manipulate' in order to get a certain performance. You are very much an active participant, and ideally, you would be learning about both horse riding theory and technique to get the best performance from both you and the horse. At no point would you ever think "my performance is purely down to my instructor/how many lessons I've had recently" - there are way too many factors on the day of a competition to warrant that sort of thinking.

As an example, I loaned a 1* eventer for 5 years, and in in the first 2-3 years, went from prelim to elementary dressage. Not only was it the constant lessons that I had with the right instructor, it was also the dedication I put in week in and week out, practicing the exercises we were given and learning as much as I could, changing things that were not working and discussing any training issues I had with the instructor. To put that sort of progress down to only the instruction I had would be madness, which is what you are suggesting.
 
Ha, interesting, thanks! Yes, largely agree with you all! I supppse it's easy to look at the more capable riders and feel that I "should" be able to ride as well as they do, forgetting, perhaps, that they've had gallons of help along the way.
 
Another who is somewhat surprised by your thought process!

Are Charlotte's achievements diminished because of the training she's had from Carl?!

I would suggest having a read through some blogs - Bill Levett immediately springs to mind - to see just how much training the decent riders have and their thoughts on it :)
 
Another vote to say go for it! I'm the worst for wanting my horse and I to be the best we can without help, but I don't feel that being on the receiving end of lessons/training is cheating.

What bugs me (albeit I and the others on my yard compete UA) is that some of the other girls on my yard have a lesson a week and then the instructor schools their horse for them AT LEAST once a week. Now it's their choice to do that, but when they stand there going on about how much the horse has improved and how well they're going as though it's all them, I can't help but think 'errrr... no'. I'm lucky to have a lesson or two a month, and when money's been scarce I've gone without for several months in order to make sure the boy doesn't suffer. So I know that the improvement is us, not simply me getting a horse that has been made for me.

now that is something that to my mind falls into the category of having it done for you!

(And sorry for the ridiculously long post!!! :) )
 
I have 1 lesson a week,nobody else sits on my horse and never has as he can be quite quirky.I sadly do not have the nerve or back for eventing and do pure Dressage.When I have a Regional for about the 3 weeks before I up my lessons to two a week.Apart from my lesson I have nobody else around to even be a pair of eyes on the ground so have to really concentrate in my lessons on the feel of it so know what I need to feel when on my own.I don't work on something new by myself for a few weeks until I know we have it quite well established in my lessons.My marks were always in the mid to high 60's but since over the last year we have really worked on riding for the extra marks and really on his paces my marks have gone up by a consistent 8-10%.He came 5/40 at the Regionals with his mark going up by 9% from before and last week won two tests with a 77% & 76.2%.All this done by consistent lessons and all by myself which I am proud of.Don't feel pressurised to get someone else schooling your horse etc,you will learn a lot more by having the consistent lessons yourself with the correct trainer.Good Luck.
 
WildRider said:
Another vote to say go for it! I'm the worst for wanting my horse and I to be the best we can without help, but I don't feel that being on the receiving end of lessons/training is cheating.

What bugs me (albeit I and the others on my yard compete UA) is that some of the other girls on my yard have a lesson a week and then the instructor schools their horse for them AT LEAST once a week. Now it's their choice to do that, but when they stand there going on about how much the horse has improved and how well they're going as though it's all them, I can't help but think 'errrr... no'. I'm lucky to have a lesson or two a month, and when money's been scarce I've gone without for several months in order to make sure the boy doesn't suffer. So I know that the improvement is us, not simply me getting a horse that has been made for me.

now that is something that to my mind falls into the category of having it done for you!

(And sorry for the ridiculously long post!!! :) )
Click to expand...

My mare is schooled for me twice a week and I usually have 2 lessons at the weekend, one on a schoolmaster & one on my mare. And yes, we're benefiting from it. My mare is enjoying the training & I'm sure she appreciates me being taught how to ride her in the way she now expects. I am making progress despite only riding @ weekends and I certainly don't consider it 'cheating'. For me, it is the most effective way to make things work given that I have a horse who likes to be busy and a job that means I can't ride midweek.
 
I used to have weekly lessons with a local lady, but haven't been able to afford lessons for the last year or so - what's really helped me is videoing myself and then analysing it and trying to improve. Dressage is all about equitation, which I kind of forget when I'm under instruction, and focus too much on the horse and not enough on myself, when really the two affect each other completely.

Though if I had the cash, I would be getting as much instruction as possible :p Would love a lesson with a pro dressage rider!
 
I do think it's rather snobbish to assume anyone having a horse schooled is cheating/a poor rider/a bad person. The aforementioned list of pros might be surprised at that view! While it may not be possible or necessary for most people and there is always an element of personal choice involved, there are many valid reasons it's a time honoured tradition. Don't knock it until you've tried it.
 
It's also a bit rude to imply WFP, AN and a host of other fantastic horsemen are cheaters or incompetent. Perhaps they simply want to improve their horses and their riding in the most efficient, least stressful way possible?

There is also the question of feel. I am eternally grateful for the people who 'set up' horses for me because they taught me not only how they should feel but the language of feel. So I can teach other horses and they can teach other riders. And I'm nothing! Imagine sitting on a dressage horse after Carl, or a jumper Ben (who went for lessons with a specific trainer on his new, now no 1 ranked ride. . .) has made, or an xc horse from any of the master 4* riders? What an education that would be!!!
 
I 100% agree with LEC, Mearsall_Millie and Tarrsteps here.

When I couldn't afford regular lessons I took my horse to my dressage trainer for her to ride (half the price). She helped him in areas where I didn't have the knowledge or skill to improve him, I usually videoed it and got a very different feel when I got back on. I could then work towards creating the feel for myself.

I would have a lesson every day if I could and am considering going away somewhere this winter to train intensively for a few days or a week, both on my own horse and on dressage schoolmasters. Like you my dressage scores need to improve by 10%, but I feel like I'm on the road thanks to the help I've had so far.

I would also recommend that you ride a lot of tests competitively over the winter - whether that be BD or unaff. It will help you hone your warm-up and has really got my brain thinking and preparing 2-3 movements ahead, rather than just thinking 'what do I do when I've finished this circle?'. Test riding clinics will help you gain marks too.
 
LEC said:
No frankly - I think you are over thinking it!
I would do everything in my power to get improvement and become a better rider. I would love to go to Germany and ride schoolmasters for a week.

Now lets look at the professionals:
Andrew Nicholson has someone regularly schooling his horses on the flat, WFP sends horses away for the winter for dressage drilling with Lizzie Murray. Mary King sent her daughter away to get decent experience over the winter with several trainers. Pippa Funnell lived with Ruth Mcmullen for 9 years (one of the best eyes in the business) and now lives with another amazing set in her husband! Ginny Leng had lessons with Dot Willis daily everything was done under the eye of her mother or Dot. Yogi Breisner seems to live at Laura Colletts. These are just a few off the top of my head.

If you want to improve, you need to do everything in your power to make it happen. I do not see how its cheating or diminishing what you do. I would rather see good professional help than the blind leading the blind.
Click to expand...

I agree entirely with this! To be fair to yourself though, what the people listed above do (in my opinion) is they give you the power to understand what is right and wrong, they give you the confidence to be able to fix the problems with the skills you already have (but wouldn't necessarily done). Ginny & Pippa both struggled with confidence issues when 'going alone' but that is probably more to do with their personality than anything else.
I have no training at all currently (although I also have no immediate goal other than not falling off!) and I am desperate for some input at all (unless it's from my mother or husband or other family member!). Pammy Hutton says 'it's important to make our strengths stronger' and it's very true!
 
Gamebird said:
I would also recommend that you ride a lot of tests competitively over the winter - whether that be BD or unaff. It will help you hone your warm-up and has really got my brain thinking and preparing 2-3 movements ahead, rather than just thinking 'what do I do when I've finished this circle?'. Test riding clinics will help you gain marks too.
Click to expand...

That's actually a very good point! I judge at unaff and the difference in the people who are thinking ahead to those that just 'arrive' at movements is immense.
Also don't be shy to use a little bit of 'ringcraft' to help you through any weak spots in your tests, judges can't see everything ;)
 
I think this is an interesting thread.

Yes, of course, as everyone has said - go for it. Have lessons, get horse schooled, go out competing at BD this winter etc. You'll get better results next year. All completely acceptable.

But, to explore your possible disquiet further, let's imagine an extreme......

I want to do 90s. I'm not much cop. I buy an older horse who has done it all, and have it downgraded. (They are out there - successful 4* horses, doing what I would call pre-novice. I'm not actually against that, as they can keep doing a useful job, thus keeping them happy and teaching a rider about eventing. Just please keep them in open sections!). This imaginary horse is now sent to a professional yard, where it is kept ticking over by an expert, with me just allowed on once a week. I can't do too much damage in one day, hopefully. I then go and do my event. I have to remember the test, the courses and hopefully not impede him too much. I might even win, if I'm brave enough to go fast enough!

My point, and I suspect yours, (sorry, we're back to point puns, completely unintentionally) is how much satisfaction would I get from that?

I think it boils down to your own feelings / moral compass. I personally get far more satisfaction from producing young / homebred/ difficult horses to a level commensurate with their talents. I have no desire to buy my way to success, but that's just my own opinion.

But by having training you are not even coming close to doing that. You are producing your own horse, who wasn't an eventer, to as good a level as you can. Examples have been cited of the great and / or good(!) who do exactly he same, so you're in good company. This is what we all do. Some can afford it more than others, some have more natural talent, some have a parent / friend etc to be knowledgeable eyes on the ground etc. That's life!

My advice is do as much as you can to improve your current partnership, and have as much fun as possible (which will probably entail doing it as well as you possibly can).

Two, or three in my case, children make eventing more difficult. Life is short. Horses break. Enjoy it and do it as well as you possibly can! You won't regret it!
 
oysterbay said:
But, to explore your possible disquiet further, let's imagine an extreme......

I want to do 90s. I'm not much cop. I buy an older horse who has done it all, and have it downgraded. (They are out there - successful 4* horses, doing what I would call pre-novice. I'm not actually against that, as they can keep doing a useful job, thus keeping them happy and teaching a rider about eventing. Just please keep them in open sections!). This imaginary horse is now sent to a professional yard, where it is kept ticking over by an expert, with me just allowed on once a week. I can't do too much damage in one day, hopefully. I then go and do my event. I have to remember the test, the courses and hopefully not impede him too much. I might even win, if I'm brave enough to go fast enough!
Click to expand...

I'm still struggling to see why this is a "moral" issue (We had a thread recently on the "morality" of winning which I find odd. . .surely the point of competing is to win? So long as you're not contravening the rules then why is it wrong?) but, leaving that out, the above is a SAFETY issue! Anyone who is riding once a week and not building a relationship with the horse (which takes time for someone riding at that level) is not SAFE to set out XC. That is pretty much exactly how Christopher Reeve crunched himself. And any trainer who tells them it's okay is not doing them any favours. I know people do it but it is only a moral issue on the basis that is is seriously ramping up the risk factors. (Sam W-C only rides a couple of times a week and not always on Long Run but he works on a simulator at home every day and racing is a bit different.)

If you're not riding then your riding is not really improving (or, at least you don't know if it's improving). This is different from having a horse ridden to improve it or to fill in gaps in which the rider won't be able to ride but will, presumably, be doing other fitness work etc. - a fact of life for many parents and working riders. Better than leaving the horse in the field!

My advice is do as much as you can to improve your current partnership, and have as much fun as possible (which will probably entail doing it as well as you possibly can).

Two, or three in my case, children make eventing more difficult. Life is short. Horses break. Enjoy it and do it as well as you possibly can! You won't regret it!
Click to expand...

Good advice. Use what you've got to enjoy what you have. Which means different things for different people.

I would add, don't waste time worrying about what other people are up to and whether or not you - or other people - are "right" or "wrong". All you can do is what you can do. :)
 
TS - You're right (as you frequently are!). It's not a moral issue - if you are within the rules, it is clearly acceptable.

However, some of us have another scale of achievement, not simply winning. I take more satisfaction from producing horses than just getting results. I also find beating an established / 'bought' combination very satisfying. And there are the days when you go well but don't win, or go badly (by your own standards) and do! Which is more satisfying?

That's the beauty of the sport. Competing against a whole range of abilities, including the pros, or competing against yourself and setting your own targets. We can all choose our own level of achievement.

(And regarding the safety aspect - of course I wasn't suggesting anyone rode once a week and evented - just trying to illustrate my argument).
 
Last edited:
oysterbay said:
However, some of us have another scale of achievement, not simply winning. I take more satisfaction from producing horses than just getting results. I also find beating an established / 'bought' combination very satisfying.
Click to expand...

I think the vast majority of riders would be the same to be honest.

However I'm unsure where this perception that there is a myriad of 'bought' combinations comes from? Certainly from my experience (which is fairly broad as I'm very old) I see very, very few. Yes of course, there are riders with more money/resources than others but they generally have access to more/better training, etc, I'm not aware of any who simply walk out one morning to get on a perfectly produced horse and flounce off to win lots of frillies without doing anything beforehand. Even those with 'everything' put a considerable amount of graft into their sport - as TS has said, they get found out pretty damned quickly if they haven't!!
 
meardsall_millie said:
I think the vast majority of riders would be the same to be honest.

However I'm unsure where this perception that there is a myriad of 'bought' combinations comes from? Certainly from my experience (which is fairly broad as I'm very old) I see very, very few. Yes of course, there are riders with more money/resources than others but they generally have access to more/better training, etc, I'm not aware of any who simply walk out one morning to get on a perfectly produced horse and flounce off to win lots of frillies without doing anything beforehand. Even those with 'everything' put a considerable amount of graft into their sport - as TS has said, they get found out pretty damned quickly if they haven't!!
Click to expand...

Once you're at any level beyond Novice, I agree fully with you.

But I would argue quite strongly that at BE100/ BE90 level definitely you can rely almost totally on your horse's experience and good humour to get you round. Al does enough PC stuff to see long-suffering ex-intermediate horses carrying their jockeys round those tracks. But then, if we had money Al would be doing that too!
 
I aim for fortnightly lessons, however time and money probably sees it closer to every 3/4 weeks. At first our lessons would be fairly repetative and fixing the same problems every time or ones that I had created in being over zealous with working on something. Now I am better educated, I can continue working her better in between lesson and lessons are spent introducing new things.
Quite often Jeanette will have a sit on, whether it be that she needs to feel what I am in order to teach me how to deal with it or that she is better equipped to teach the horse first and then teach me how to do it on the horse.

I'd love anyone to tell me that I haven't produced my own horse because once in a while a 4* rider sits on it for 20 minutes!

Lessons for me on my own horse have made a huge impact on how I ride other horses for schooling, my feel and ability to deal with what I'm feeling have improved so much!
 
Lolo said:
Once you're at any level beyond Novice, I agree fully with you.

But I would argue quite strongly that at BE100/ BE90 level definitely you can rely almost totally on your horse's experience and good humour to get you round. Al does enough PC stuff to see long-suffering ex-intermediate horses carrying their jockeys round those tracks. But then, if we had money Al would be doing that too!
Click to expand...

I think one could argue this is how a lot of very good riders started out though! They had the ride on a "passed around pony" and then a schoolmaster of some sort. They may have had a green pony to produce or similar but not in isolation and not without supervision. You improve by learning feel as well as technique and good, well educated horses are a short cut to being able to practice good technique and build up a library of good "feels".

Yes, some of those people stop at that level and seem to be the same year after year, but most either eventually get caught out (see Christopher Reeve - by his own admission - example above) or use the skills they have developed to move on.

The joke for me is I'm probably the least competitive rider in this discussion and was probably not particularly competitive even when I was competitive. I have always trained (lesson, clinics, riding more established horses, wp positions etc etc) for myself, for my own body of knowledge and because I love horses and riding and learning about horses and riding (most days :)) If there is something to learn, why would you not want to learn it? And there is always something to learn.

Maybe that's why I don't really understand the question.
 
You can argue this completely the other way.

Arguably, it is MORE ethical to achieve through training and learning than the other perceived major factors in "getting good" / naturally being brilliant.

This because the other perceived major factors to being successful, besides having learned how to be a great eventer, such as luck at picking a good horse, being able to afford a good horse, being born with talents that happen to make you a good rider, things falling luckily for you on a given day or during a given season... etc, don't require concerted personal effort and growth in order to achieve them.

There's a reason that we talk about learning as something distinct from 'being taught'. Learning (and being able to apply learning) is an active process, and some people are better at it than others even with equally skilled teachers.

So I would agree with you that if you decide that the object of competing is to measure how well you have developed yours and your horse's performance, that it's a bit of a 'cheat' on that measure if you send your horse away for LOTS of schooling by someone else. But if you have created a system which includes some training of the horse by another person, then it's still your system. The tipping point for me would be the point at which the extent of their input and the impact it had on the horse's performance distinctly outweighed the merit you can be credited for having included that element in your system.

But if you develop your and your horse's performance by learning lots together from others, then that's exactly the aim of the game rather than the antithesis of it.

Excluding passengers on 'made' horses, someone who became really successful with very little training would be a) very unusual, and b) considered pretty jammy, even if it is in the 'natural talent' stakes (if that exists as we understand it, which is a debatable point in itself). Take it to its logical conclusion and there's a point at which we decide they're a bit of a lucky freak rather than someone who's truly earned their success.

And unless we decide that we prize purely natural ability over ability in general, which I don't think we do, success which comes unnaturally easily is arguably less "merited" than success through seeking lots of learning. It's called a 'gift' for a reason...
 
Last edited:
No, I totally agree with you and one day I will be rich and be able to buy horses Al can learn from because of their experience rather than their joint lack of it. Until then, I'll gripe that it's definitely not fair to have a horse that won an Intermediate last month doing a PC 1m class :D

But I reckon I have the least interest in this one technically. I ride all of once a month at most, I've sold all my gear and just borrow joddy boots and a hat when I fancy joining Al out hacking. But I love watching lessons and watching people compete and learning about how people manage different horses, and that's probably why I hang out on this forum and read others too. I like knowing stuff. Even if I can't do it, I like knowing about it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top