How much protein is too much protein?

[Katieg123]

I have my 2 retriever puppies (16 weeks) on Orijen Large Breed Puppy and they're doing great on it. It is expensive but we are happy to spend that on a high quality food for them. We brought them to a dog trainer (with an excellent reputation) and she thinks that Orijen has too much protein (38%) and is recommending we switch to Burns (24%). She believes that the high protein content will cause the puppies to grow too quickly. What do you think about this? I am hesitant to switch since they are doing so well and Orijen is great quality but if she has a point I would consider it!

 

[AmyMay]

I feed Orijen (but only since she was an adult) and she absolutely thrives on it.

Sorry, can’t comment on whether it’s too high in protein for puppies though. @skinnydipper may be able to advise?

I hate Burns. Dogs seem to do ok on it. But their is never solid

 

[Clodagh]

Agree with her. @CorvusCorax has touched on this before.

 

[Clodagh]

Not necessarily saying Burns but I wouldn’t want over 30% protein for a pup.

 

[skinnydipper]

I have my 2 retriever puppies (16 weeks) on Orijen Large Breed Puppy and they're doing great on it. It is expensive but we are happy to spend that on a high quality food for them. We brought them to a dog trainer (with an excellent reputation) and she thinks that Orijen has too much protein (38%) and is recommending we switch to Burns (24%). She believes that the high protein content will cause the puppies to grow too quickly. What do you think about this? I am hesitant to switch since they are doing so well and Orijen is great quality but if she has a point I would consider it!

I would stick with the Orijen. Their nutritionists will have calculated the ideal calcium to phosphorus ratio for large breed puppies. The correct ratio is essential for skeletal development.

 

[Katieg123]

Not necessarily saying Burns but I wouldn’t want over 30% protein for a pup.

Is your reasoning for not wanting more than 30% the growth rate?

 

[CorvusCorax]

I wouldn't be feeding it, but each to their own.

 

[Katieg123]

I wouldn't be feeding it, but each to their own.

Because of the high protein or for another reason? What would you switch to?

 

[Katieg123]

I would stick with the Orijen. Their nutritionists will have calculated the ideal calcium to phosphorus ratio for large breed puppies. The correct ratio is essential for skeletal development.

Thanks for your response! I didn't even think of those other factors.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Because of the high protein or for another reason? What would you switch to?

Yes, and the expense. I currently feed Markus Muhle NaturNah.

 

[Clodagh]

Is your reasoning for not wanting more than 30% the growth rate?

I’ve had a Labrador with pano (growth pains) and it helped when we dropped her to lower protein food.

 

[Clodagh]

And what this thread proves, in a nutshell, is no two people agree with anything about dog food!

 

[CorvusCorax]

I’ve had a Labrador with pano (growth pains) and it helped when we dropped her to lower protein food.

Yep my good mate has a puppy with pano and it is a right PITA.

 

[skinnydipper]

Thanks for your response! I didn't even think of those other factors.

Your trainer might be worried about panosteitis. I will post a link to an article which explains this condition, here is an exerpt from it:

"There are potential links between panosteitis and diets containing excessive levels of dietary protein and/or calcium. For that reason, you may be tempted to feed your large-breed puppy with adult dog food, which contains lower levels of protein and calcium. However, this is not advised, because adult dog food has lower calories (energy levels) than puppy food. Rapidly growing puppies require high levels of dietary energy to grow, and will need to eat more of a low-energy food to meet these requirements. Eating more of a low-energy diet will result in a higher overall intake of protein and calcium.

A better option is to feed an affected dog a high-quality diet that has been specifically formulated for large breed puppies or adolescents, and to restrict the quantity fed to keep the dog at a lean, healthy body weight. Do not allow your puppy to become overweight. Consult your veterinarian for further advice on the most appropriate nutrition for your dog."

Panosteitis in Dogs | VCA Animal Hospital | VCA Animal Hospitals

Learn all you need to know about panosteitis in dogs with VCA. Get expert advice from VCA Animal Hospitals to keep your pet healthy and happy.

vcahospitals.com

 

[CorvusCorax]

Yep my good mate has a puppy with pano and it is a right PITA.

This bitch was fed a 'large breed puppy' food and has been lame on various legs for months, she has now moved onto the adult version.

I work with very active large breed dogs and have never used a 'large breed' anything, definitely not a 'large breed puppy' food as to my mind that is just shorthand for 'rocket fuel', my current eldest dog has eaten all sorts of brands over the years (was never on 'puppy food', he was weaned onto raw/a bit of adult kibble and is pushing 13, still active, fit and sound, despite quite a heavy workload.

 

[druid]

I would stick with the Orijen. Their nutritionists will have calculated the ideal calcium to phosphorus ratio for large breed puppies. The correct ratio is essential for skeletal development.

The same as the nutritionists for every single company selling a large breed puppy food....! Nothing special about the ratio in Orijen

 

[Christmascinnamoncookie]

From my (somewhat obsessive) research into kibble when these 2 were small, the adult version of the food generally had 1% more protein than the puppy. As mentioned, the phosphorus ratio is important.

Times have moved on and back in the day, puppy food did not exist. Some might argue that it's a marketing ploy, unless you're looking at size of pieces, adult may be too big for pups to chew.

 

[skinnydipper]

"Panosteitis is a condition that affects young, rapidly growing dogs. Although it can occur in any breed of dog, larger breeds are more prone to this problem (e.g., German shepherd (most common), Great Dane, golden retriever, Labrador retriever, rottweiler, Doberman pinscher, and basset hound)."

"The underlying cause of panosteitis is unknown, but genetics, stress, infection, metabolism, or nutrition may be factors. Since German shepherds seem particularly predisposed to panosteitis, there may be a genetic component to the disease, at least in this breed."

Link in post #14

 

[Shady]

I wouldn't personally feed Burns. I tried it on my Weims and they lost so much weight it was rediculous .
The rice content is nearly 70% in adult dried and over 40% in puppy . I don''t think they do a large breed puppy either, but that might have changed.
Can't comment on Orijen as i've never tried it for the dogs, only cats , and they did really well on it

 

[skinnydipper]

The rice content is nearly 70% in adult dried and over 40% in puppy . I don''t think they do a large breed puppy either, but that might have changed.

Large breed puppy 67% rice

 

[Katieg123]

I cant find much information on why a high protein diet would be worst for a puppy other than it being 'above optimal levels'. Anything I've read about protein having negative effects refers to older dogs and kidney problems.

If I were to change is there a 'middle ground' feed that people recommend? Has to be available in Ireland.

I was looking at https://flatazor.ie/flatazor-purelife-maxi-junior/ as it is available near me and seems like a decent food but doesnt seem to be well known.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Most things are genetic it's harder to damage a body that's genetically sound.

However I know both parents of this dog, all four pups (another friend bred the litter) and this is the only one which is so, er, generously fed and perhaps coincidentally, the only one with pano. She's been to the vet at least three times.

I base anything I say here on my experiences with my own dogs and the dogs that have come before me in the last decade or so and who I have seen week in, week out for many years.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Just Googled a random raw complete puppy food and the protein is 15.5%

 

[Katieg123]

Just Googled a random raw complete puppy food and the protein is 15.5%

With raw the moisture is much higher though so you have to feed much more. This would bring total protein amount way up right?

ETA Looked at butternut box (as an example) and the moisture is 70% vs 12% in the Orijen food. Butternut is recommending to feed approximately double what Orijen is.

 

[CorvusCorax]

You do what you think is right for your own dog. You asked the question, my answer is, personally/in my experience high protein levels in a dry food can make large breed dogs shoot up too quickly and that can potentially cause problems.

 

[Christmascinnamoncookie]

I wouldn't personally feed Burns. I tried it on my Weims and they lost so much weight it was rediculous .
The rice content is nearly 70% in adult dried and over 40% in puppy . I don''t think they do a large breed puppy either, but that might have changed.
Can't comment on Orijen as i've never tried it for the dogs, only cats , and they did really well on it

I've heard this a lot on here. I wonder what the issue is?

 

[Aru]

I wouldn't feed it personally, but the higher then required protein level in dog food hasn't consistently been proven to causes as many issues as it does in other species. The calorie amount can causes issues though.

I do try to only feed brands and advise only feeding brands of dog food that follow the wsava guidelines these days.
Pet food has become a massive marketing and money arena so it's getting really interesting how much marketing and spin goes on.

I've gotten tired to trying to explain why some boutique brands and trends can be dangerous to some dogs and that marketing in the pet food industry has created a lot of variation on what is being sold and advised to consumers...without a lot of scientific proof and with some pretty severe potential health issue's being a side effect.
But people don't want to hear any nutrtional advise from a vet anymore. If the dog becomes the one with issues then il touch on it again.

So I provide the guidelines on selecting a food because I think they are sensible and let people make their choices.
There are not many brands currently meeting them of course.

Googling wsava pet food guidelines will bring up their selection advise.

Overview on large breed puppy food research from skept vet also added.

Nutrition in Large Breed Puppies |

Nutrition is a topic I've enjoyed slowly delving more and more into. We do a reasonable amount in uni but I've enjoyed exploring it more since.
My own family dogs got fed scraps and some pretty interesting choices in the past and did fine. Dogs have natural scavengers so you get away with a lot! What I feed my own now has defiantely changed over time and exposure to more information.

The most important timeframe nutrition and potential health issues wise is in the growth phase though.

 

[Shady]

I've heard this a lot on here. I wonder what the issue is?

Too much rice perhaps for such active dogs? I tried it as I was having an anal gland issue with my first Weim and it was recommended somewhere or other, I forget now. So long story short, it didn't make a difference, and both dogs lost a lot of weight ( and I keep my dogs slim and fit ) I had to give almost double the quantity to keep them from being too ribby. I changed to Lukullus and that worked really well. xx

 

[Katieg123]

Thanks for the input everyone! I'll do some more research and make a decision then.