How often are horses taking the piss???

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I went up to do a bit of jumping on my dads horse today, he's only a baby and very novicey. He struggles a bit with doubles so we thought it might be an idea to have a little practice...

Anyway he ran out when we first introduced the second part, gave him the benefit of the dought and then he jumped it but not that great, then dad put it up a bit (was still small) and he ran out again, to which dad told said "give him a smack for that - a proper one" so I did, felt a bit mean as I haven't smacked a horse in a long while, but then after that he did it perfectly! He then went on to go much better than he ever has done and jump normal sized jumps (i.e. not tiny) and be really careful and good.

I don't think he was being that naughty but thinking "I don't really get it so I don't have to try". I can see how horses can get away with a lot!!

Just wondering what other people think on this kind of thing??
 
I am a of the thought, that horses, being prey animls will do as little as possible (obviously until a lion of a crisp packet comes out of the bushes
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) and conserve energy accordingly. So as riders, we are constantly asking them to use their conserved energy. Sometimes against their will.

So on that note, I am not so sure they take the piss, as do as little as possible....... if they can.
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What I find interesting is most instructors will say a run out is mainly rider error. If he is a baby why not use guide poles? I think humans are too quick to blame the horse, I am not saying this is the case here, but it is easier to blame the animal rather then anything we may have done.
 
My instructor sometimes blames Charlie rather than me. "You are doing it right, he is just being bloody minded!"
 
I couldn't say what my instructors have said about on of my mares! She has a tendancey to take the widdle a fair bit, sometimes I'm sure it's my fault though. I guess it depends on what sort of day we're having.
 
I am not sure that horses have the intellectual capacity to 'take the piss'.

Why did the horse do the jump after you gave him a smack? Simply because he feared getting another smack more than he feared attempting the jump.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for setting boundaries for acceptable behaviour but if we are going to 'punish' a horse in any way, it important to have a clear understanding of why, and what we hope to achieve
 
I agree with the WATCHER. Horse do not stand in the stable working out how to 'piss you off'. They simply dont work like that.
Their responses are fight or flight and food!
They respect leadership, sometimes this has to be firm so that they 'trust' your ask and in your case the fear of upsetting the 'leader' was greater than the quetion being put in front of him.
Poor riding and unclear questions are always the riders fault and we as riders have to think as the horse not as a human. Do this and a horse will do wonders for you as you become his trusted and repected leader, provider of food and safety in 'wild'terms.
Remember a horse knows how to be a horse we do not always know how to be riders.
 
I'm with Watcher and Partoow on this. My boy started learning how to jump in March and I'm not the most confident rider when it comes to jumping so we are like the blind leading the blind. My instructor has filled us both with confidence and we've even managed to jump an oxer. In the beginning we came to the conclusion that any run out or rushing to jump was out of fear and lack of confidence (in me too, not always just him). I have carried a schooling whip when jumping, not to use but to tell myself if he doesn't jump I will flick him, somehow it gives me the confidence to get him over the jump which then means he jumps better. I can count on one hand the amount of times Ive carried a whip in the last year. But I'm one of the lucky ones, I have the most honest, genuine, giving horse I have ever met and he tries his little heart out for me. There is nothing he won't attempt. He started out life as a driving horse so why should he jump its quite clearly not natural to him. So what we've achieved since March to me is an out and out miracle. He knows how impressed and proud of him I am and so he just tries that little bit harder for me. I do feel though that if I sit back and think oh its ok I know he can jump this and leave it to him, he runs out. He's telling me that if he has to do the work then so should I!!! I don't blame him for that at all, afterall, when I'm snowed under with work and my boss won't help me, I get P'd off too!!!!! Funnily enough, I tend to slow down and do less!!!
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Whoever says horses do not know how to take the piddle is seriously misguided.....

my horse is one of the biggest P-takers out there, and i love her for it! i disagree about horses not being calculating; I have watched ellie in the stable on many occasions, and her mood swings are numerous! are you telling me that, when she attempts to take a chunk out of my arm, then raises her head and pricks her dainty little ears in a 'butter wouldnt melt' pose, she is not completely taking the piddle out of me!?? and that when we are walking up the track, past all the things that have been there for the past five years, spooking, snorting and shying at rocks, weeds and anything that might be lurking is NOT taking the P?

i think not!

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Thankfully my 'miss guided' has lead me to train horses and riders successfully for years....
As i said its about leadership and this behaviour is one of a horse challenging you for the highearchy in the pecking order. Thats all. The spooking thing is again part of this and shows the horses lack of 'reasoning' and again shows you that she is questioning you as 'leader'. Not piss taking just confidence in you as a leader. Mares are more prone to challenging the status quo as they do tend to live in the herd and have strong leadership from the matriarch she is testing you that all.
Simlpe. Not Parrelli!!!!!!!!!
 
I don't think horses take the pee as such (but maybe I'm just naive), I think it's easy to forget that horses see things very differently to us and their sense of smell is keener than ours. George went down our usual bridlepath last week snorting with eyes on stalks - nothing looked different to me, but later I discovered that there was a new horse in the field we passed(I couldn't see it), but maybe he could smell it when of course we can't. I thinks horses may try to get away with doing less if they can, but they don't have the capacity to stand in their stable thinking 'what shall I do next', they don't think like us, if at all.
 
Thanks for the replies guys. To be honest I probably wouldn’t have smacked him, but was doing as I was told – and it worked! I could have been there trying for ages being nice to him. I must just be a cruel and bad rider!

To be honest I don’t think he was taking the piss, but I do think some horses do think “I can get away with this so I’ll do it/not do it” which is what I meant by taking to pee.
 
I remember watching Carmen Lanni training Nick Skelton when NS was a young boy. His words stuck with me over the last thirty years. "If you set a horse up properly for a fence, it will have no option but to go over it."

Horses can't be spiteful, like humans can, so they certainly don't think, "I know what I'll do today, I'll try to annoy my rider if I can." If horses could think like that, it would certainly be, "My rider hasn't done that very well, I'll try and help out." I know my old mare did that but she had the experience to sort out the problems I'd caused by my bad approach to a fence.
 
Do are you saying that a horse never ever stops or runs out at a fence for any other reason than it is not been ridden properly??
 
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Whoever says horses do not know how to take the piddle is seriously misguided.....

my horse is one of the biggest P-takers out there, and i love her for it! i disagree about horses not being calculating; I have watched ellie in the stable on many occasions, and her mood swings are numerous! are you telling me that, when she attempts to take a chunk out of my arm, then raises her head and pricks her dainty little ears in a 'butter wouldnt melt' pose, she is not completely taking the piddle out of me!?? and that when we are walking up the track, past all the things that have been there for the past five years, spooking, snorting and shying at rocks, weeds and anything that might be lurking is NOT taking the P?

i think not!

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Funny how I've manged 20 years of successful production of horses using my methods and my horses don't bite or even attempt to bite me!!! I maintain all the time on this forum, its all down to your ground work!

I feel very sorry for anyone who does not have that unique and wonderful something that I cannot describe that I have with my horse. But I also realise that I'm the luckiest woman alive to have what I have. (It just makes me feel like a 10 year old kid again - not sure if thats a good thing or not!!!)
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Sounds as if the horse was being green rather than taking the p*ss, and perhaps it would have been better to continue over a smaller fence, rather than bashing him and putting it up............
 
Interesting....

I just wrote a massive reply and then realised at the end I was totally contradicting myself. I'm inclined to think that horses can't be calculating but on reflection, I'm not so sure.

Hacking out the other day Ty spooked and spun and tried to gallop off. I let him carry on in the direction he was heading. BIG mistake. Nearly home and he does it again on the road so he got a massive boot and made to go the way I wanted. If I hadn't done that he'd do it all the time. Not saying he was doing it to take the pi*s but he knew that if he got scared, I'd let him do what he wanted.

Yesteday on a hack he slowed right down, head up and tried to plant, I knew that if I didn't push him on in about 2 secs, he'd he spinning and off int he opposite direction!

With regards to jumping tho, he runs out sometimes cause he's lacking confidence. I have to constantly egg him on vocally and with lots of leg and he'll then jump anything. I even have to walk him into jumps sometimes then when he knows it's ok, he'll pull me into them.

Horses are odd things - I believe that some are just more intelligent than others and are quick to pick up on a learned behaviour - ie, if I spin my mum will let me gallop off!
 
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Interesting....

I just wrote a massive reply and then realised at the end I was totally contradicting myself. I'm inclined to think that horses can't be calculating but on reflection, I'm not so sure.

Hacking out the other day Ty spooked and spun and tried to gallop off. I let him carry on in the direction he was heading. BIG mistake. Nearly home and he does it again on the road so he got a massive boot and made to go the way I wanted. If I hadn't done that he'd do it all the time. Not saying he was doing it to take the pi*s but he knew that if he got scared, I'd let him do what he wanted.

Yesteday on a hack he slowed right down, head up and tried to plant, I knew that if I didn't push him on in about 2 secs, he'd he spinning and off int he opposite direction!

With regards to jumping tho, he runs out sometimes cause he's lacking confidence. I have to constantly egg him on vocally and with lots of leg and he'll then jump anything. I even have to walk him into jumps sometimes then when he knows it's ok, he'll pull me into them.

Horses are odd things - I believe that some are just more intelligent than others and are quick to pick up on a learned behaviour - ie, if I spin my mum will let me gallop off!

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You solved your own problem - your lack of leadership led to your horse challenging you - when he was frightended you allowed him to gallop off and continue in the direction he chose. Why didn't you turn him around as a good leader and say come on we're going this way and I will protect you, trust me, I will guide you where we need to go to make is safe for you. Thats what a leader of the herd would have been saying that is exactly how you need to think with your horse.

I do agree with you about the jumping, and I have to be vocal to get him over sometimes, but when he gets it right I say "Yeay good boy" (usaully with satisfying impressed with him for trying laughter) and give him lots and lots of pats. I feel him say to himself, that made mummy happy, lets do it again.

All I'm saying is that any problems caused are usually down to lack of leadership and respect. That is only my opinion. I accept that not everyone thinks the same as me and that is why I've stopped teaching.

The most I ever learned about horse behaviour was when I didn't have one I used to spend up to 4hrs a day watching a herd of around 80 coloured horses, mares, foals and a stallion. I learned more about natural horse behaviour in that time than at any other time in my life. Just watch a mare with her foal or one field companion with another, its amazing how they interact with each other and how much of that stuff we do naturally with our own horses when we're showing the correct leadership.
 
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I think that often we overestimate the role of reasoning and underestimate the role of operant conditioning. The main rule of conditioning is that if an action has a postive outcome, it is more likely to be repeated. That doesn't mean that Ty thinks 'oh, spinning around worked last time', it means that he has associated it with avoiding the negative stimulus (scary thing he spooked at).
 
I totally agree - I have come to realise with my TB that if he does something like spook or piss about its because of fear and if I calmly take control or don't react in panic he takes confidence in me and is fine again. It took me a while to realise this and I spent a long time being afraid of him which made him afraid of me! I switched my perspective and we are getting on much better and his trust in me is growing all the time.
 
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I totally agree - I have come to realise with my TB that if he does something like spook or piss about its because of fear and if I calmly take control or don't react in panic he takes confidence in me and is fine again. It took me a while to realise this and I spent a long time being afraid of him which made him afraid of me! I switched my perspective and we are getting on much better and his trust in me is growing all the time.

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Congratulations. I had a bad fall last year and ended up in hospital, no idea what happened as can't remember, but its made us what we are today. Now that you've changed your perspective I bet your relationship has gone from strength to strength. Whilst you were afraid of your horse he would have doubted you because if you are afraid of him, he thinks he should be afraid of you. Then the trust element breaks down. Isn't it simple when you understand them. I'd love it it you keep me posted on your progress. PM me whenever you want.
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QR
I think that often we overestimate the role of reasoning and underestimate the role of operant conditioning. The main rule of conditioning is that if an action has a postive outcome, it is more likely to be repeated. That doesn't mean that Ty thinks 'oh, spinning around worked last time', it means that he has associated it with avoiding the negative stimulus (scary thing he spooked at).

[/ QUOTE ] Agree with you entirely Jellicle and had just come on here to post something very similar, but you beat me to it!

Whether horses 'take the piss' depends on your interpretation of the phrase. If you think it means they calculate disobedience just to be annoying then no they don't 'take the piss'. On the other hand if you just think it means they learn to take advantage and get what they want, then perhaps they do.

Children's ponies illustrate this superbly. One day a cheeky pony drops its shoulder accidently after a jump and rider falls off and pony gets to eat grass. Wahay - what a result! Pony soons learns to associate an action, dropping the shoulder, with a positive outcome for him - food! However, I doubt he sits in the stable hatching a plan to ditch the rider - it is just a subconscious connection between the action of dropping a shoulder and gaining the 'reward' of food.

My daughter's pony picks up on body language - if someone nervous approaches to groom or tack up she bares her teeth or raises a leg. She has learnt that brings the positive outcome of them backing off. However, if someone confident approaches she doesn't bother, because she has learnt that in that scenario her behaviour won't bring the desired result. So by some definitions you could say she is 'taking the piss'!
 
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On the other hand if you just think it means they learn to take advantage and get what they want, then perhaps they do.

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Thats what I meant, and if continued to let get away with it, when will they ever stop doing it??
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i feelreally guilty half the time because i do underestimate my mare and if she stops or pulls into the side i dont know if she is being genuine(sp) or not and 9 times out of 10 shes not but every now and again her actions have stopped accidents, its sounds silly but let me give you and example. She had been stubbon through out the ride and had really been pushing me to my limits (my mum and i tend to swap when we are out riding one walks and one rides) my mum was riding when we were down a quite lane as we went round a corner izzy stopped started to pull herself onto the grass verge where i was walking, and pushed me over using her head i was about to push her back and try to lead her on or shout at her when a car came wizzing round the corner like a racing car she didn't flinch and then carried on walking as if nothing had ever happened, i felt so guilty for doubting her as she really did keep us both safe.

i know its not really like the jumping but still i find it hard to tell whether or not they are taking the p*ss
 
put a nervous/novice rider on my horse and he gallops off round the school with them. If they stay on, he never does it again with them. IF they fall off, he tries it again next time they are put on him!
 
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put a nervous/novice rider on my horse and he gallops off round the school with them. If they stay on, he never does it again with them. IF they fall off, he tries it again next time they are put on him!

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Then I would say that horse/pony is not a novice ride??????????
 
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i feelreally guilty half the time because i do underestimate my mare and if she stops or pulls into the side i dont know if she is being genuine(sp) or not and 9 times out of 10 shes not but every now and again her actions have stopped accidents, its sounds silly but let me give you and example. She had been stubbon through out the ride and had really been pushing me to my limits (my mum and i tend to swap when we are out riding one walks and one rides) my mum was riding when we were down a quite lane as we went round a corner izzy stopped started to pull herself onto the grass verge where i was walking, and pushed me over using her head i was about to push her back and try to lead her on or shout at her when a car came wizzing round the corner like a racing car she didn't flinch and then carried on walking as if nothing had ever happened, i felt so guilty for doubting her as she really did keep us both safe.

i know its not really like the jumping but still i find it hard to tell whether or not they are taking the p*ss

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Isn't it great that your horse wanted to protect you.
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I'd say you're going in the right direction with your horsemanship.
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At the end of the day, we talk to our fellow humans and we still have mistakes in communication even though we're talking the same language so you can only expect the odd mis-communication with your horse. Its trying not to lett it be a repeat performance that is the key.
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I agree with the WATCHER. Horse do not stand in the stable working out how to 'piss you off'. They simply dont work like that.
Their responses are fight or flight and food!
They respect leadership, sometimes this has to be firm so that they 'trust' your ask and in your case the fear of upsetting the 'leader' was greater than the quetion being put in front of him.
Poor riding and unclear questions are always the riders fault and we as riders have to think as the horse not as a human. Do this and a horse will do wonders for you as you become his trusted and repected leader, provider of food and safety in 'wild'terms.
Remember a horse knows how to be a horse we do not always know how to be riders.

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Couldn't have put it better or more eloquently.
 
Not necessarily take the p but they can be awkward, bl**dy minded and devious. My mare has had a chequered past we suspect before she came to me and as such can be difficult. My husband describes her as one of the velociraptors from Jurassic Park and he is absolutely right. She is constantly on the look out for how to get her own way, usually more food and senses the tiniest weakness. If you take your mind off the job for a second she would have you over to the grass and munch determinedly. Same when she is being ridden, she is never allowed to eat but it doesn't stop her trying, at the moment the "I've got a horse fly on me...I'm going to try and snap it off...ooh look theres some grass" is a real favourite of hers out hacking.

Anyone who tells me that this is me not being a clear enough leader or that we aren't fully bonded I find offensive. Its great that alot of people on here clearly don't have problems with their horses but there are some out there that are awkward and very determined. Its not that she doesn't know she's not allowed to eat. merely that she seems to be constantly hungry and will keep waiting for a weakness until she can strike. Anyone who feels otherwise is more than welcome to come and try leading her
 
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