How risky is loaning in reality and what can you do to safeguard

Meowy Catkin

Meowy Catkin

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... your horse?

In light of the Peel case, I do wonder if loaning is ever worth the risk these days.

Updates by phone, text, email and forum posts can't be trusted, so how often would you need to visit the horse to be safe? Is a loan from 'your' yard the only real option?

What is the point of letting the PIO know that the horse is on loan or microchipping it, if the rumours (that the rescued horses were never officially identified) are true? Would freezemarks have been checked? Does loaning to the wrong person mean that you should forfeit ownership?

I'd be interested in your thoughts.
 
It is always advisable to check on a loaned horse regularly (every month).
Before loaning any horse I would ensure that the horse is both Freezemarked and Micro-chipped.
The advantage of Freezemarking is that anyone can read it and thus the horse can be easily identified.
The issue with Micro-chipping is that there is no compulsion on the vet that micro-chips the horse to transfer the details to the manufacturers data base.
In addition there are about 7 different micro-chipping systems and the scanner from one micro-chip will not recognise all the others.
What is needed is a central database for Freezemarking and Micro-chipping which holds them all and that it is made compulsory for vets to update the micro-chipping details to the database we they implant the microchip.
When you loan a horse it is important to obtain the passport, driving licence and rates bill from the person that you intend loaning to and photocopy them so that you know their true identity.
Also have a legally verified and enforceable loan agreement in place which all parties have signed.
Also be aware that from next year all horses in Europe will have to be micro-chipped (to a EU standard Microchip) and their details and that of the current owner registered on a central database.
 
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I have three on loan and so far their owners have all been incredibly happy with me and them. They get top notch care. I treat a loan horse the same as I would want a horse I loaned out to be treated. I've only ever sent one back after two months because we didn't get on but in that time she had everything done just for my own piece of mind (teeth, back, feet, new saddle) she had an allergic reaction to some soothing balm I used because she had a dry Itchy patch and I offered to pay the vet but she was already at home and had been for several days so it was declined but the offer was still there. we do exist (good loaners)
 
OWLIE185 said:
It is always advisable to check on a loaned horse regularly (every month).
Before loaning any horse I would ensure that the horse is both Freezemarked and Micro-chipped.
The advantage of Freezemarking is that anyone can read it and thus the horse can be easily identified.
The issue with Micro-chipping is that there is no compulsion on the vet that micro-chips the horse to transfer the details to the manufacturers data base.
In addition there are about 7 different micro-chipping systems and the scanner from one micro-chip will not recognise all the others.
What is needed is a central database for Freezemarking and Micro-chipping which holds them all and that it is made compulsory for vets to update the micro-chipping details to the database we they implant the microchip.
When you loan a horse it is important to obtain the passport, driving licence and rates bill from the person that you intend loaning to and photocopy them so that you know their true identity.
Also have a legally verified and enforceable loan agreement in place which all parties have signed.
Also be aware that from next year all horses in Europe will have to be micro-chipped (to a EU standard Microchip) and their details and that of the current owner registered on a central database.
Click to expand...
I agree with the above. Also, as a yard owner, I have had more 'bad customers' that were loaning horses than those that own their horses including one that tried to sell the horse that she was loaning (luckily I knew the owner!). Personally from the problems I've encountered with loaned horses, I would never let a horse of mine leave my yard- after all you wouldn't give the keys to your car to a complete stranger and say 'here, take this for as long as you want and do want you to with it and I'll have it back when you've finished.' If you do let your horse go to a strange yard make sure you give the YO your details and make it known that the horse is on loan and YOU will tell the YO if you sell the horse not the loanee. Also make sure the YO knows you want to be informed if the loanee falls behind with payments, intends to leave the yard or generally anything that doesn't fit in with your loan arrangements. I ask for a copy of the loan agreement too so that if I see the loanee doing something that they know they shouldn't be doing then I can contact the owner straightaway to inform them.
 
Effectively loaning your horse is very risky for a lot of reasons and there is nothing you can do to safeguard its welfare even visiting weekly means it is only seen then and anything can go on when you are not there. My biggest upset was loaning ponies and them being returned damaged one permanently
 
There are very very few people (in the grand scheme of things) who are maliciously deceitful when it comes to loaning horses. And the ones that are you hear about being shouted from the rooftops, which often makes it seem like a more widespread problem than it is.

There are plenty of people out there looking to loan a horse because it is a 'cheap' option and any failures on their part IMO is down to inexperience/ignorance rather than wilful neglect.

Likewise there are many owners looking to move on horses with 'issues' and these types invariably need loaners with reasonable experience.

Ultimately it is a joint responsibility between owner and loaner to make sure that things work and that involves honesty from both sides.

I'm 100% pro loaning. I've been on both sides of the coin and haven't had any major disasters. I have intervened twice and removed my horses from the care of the loaner due to standard of care - but it was done early enough that there were no repercussions.

I currently own one horse that is out on long term loan. He has multiple issues and I can honestly say he is in the perfect home, his situation now is far better than I could offer him.

The biggest thing for me about loaning is that ultimately I still have the final say/control. I can take the horse back. I can have the horse put down. You forefit that if you sell.
 
That's what I like about loaning too. If anything happens to me or for some reason I can't cope I know the horse has a home to go to rather than an uncertain future being sold. I do own one but one of my loaned ones is her "fallback owner" should anything happen to me I've agreed they can have her (and they agree to take her)
 
We've loaned out several (2 still out on loan) and never had a bad experience tbh! Driving is a small world and they've all been to well known competition homes though....
 
OWLIE185 said:
It is always advisable to check on a loaned horse regularly (every month).
Before loaning any horse I would ensure that the horse is both Freezemarked and Micro-chipped.
The advantage of Freezemarking is that anyone can read it and thus the horse can be easily identified.
The issue with Micro-chipping is that there is no compulsion on the vet that micro-chips the horse to transfer the details to the manufacturers data base.
In addition there are about 7 different micro-chipping systems and the scanner from one micro-chip will not recognise all the others.
What is needed is a central database for Freezemarking and Micro-chipping which holds them all and that it is made compulsory for vets to update the micro-chipping details to the database we they implant the microchip.
When you loan a horse it is important to obtain the passport, driving licence and rates bill from the person that you intend loaning to and photocopy them so that you know their true identity.
Also have a legally verified and enforceable loan agreement in place which all parties have signed.
Also be aware that from next year all horses in Europe will have to be micro-chipped (to a EU standard Microchip) and their details and that of the current owner registered on a central database.
Click to expand...

Hi Faracat :), Now I agree with this^ tbo though I'm not one for loaning, never have been, never will be, I've heard too many horror stories and seen too many nice horses get screwed up because of bad loans. I'm not condemning all the good people but for me loaning out is a no no.
 
I have loaned out my ponies several times and although on the whole its has been successful, you never get the animal back that you sent away, as some people will never listen to what you say and they think they know better.
Its nothing to do with how posh they are, home with swimming pool and tennis court came back with shoes as thin as sixpences.
How close they are, friend locally tipped our old pony into almost laminitis, despite being told to cut the carbs.
If they are lovely, they listened to the experts on the yard and over fed the pony, twice and had to pay the vets bills.
How knowledgeable they seem, old pony with thin soles, flat feet came back with no shoes and footsore.
Mine go out vet checked, fully shod new shoes and a full set of tack and rugs, and only once has someone replaced something with a good quality item, a lot of the time the tack comes back with bits missing and dirty.
So why did I do it? My children were incredibly fortunate, they had nice ponies to ride and I remembered not having a pony. The ponies were outgrown and I wanted to keep them.
The ones I avoid are the ones that they think they are doing you a favour, you are loaning them something of value so make sure they know it. Expect to collect it at the drop of a hat, the shortest notice was three days and people can be incredibly ungrateful, but I have had some lovely thank you letters and poems from children.
 
It's difficult, but even discounting the internet stories I know of too many loans gone wrong just from a few people that I know that have done it to even think of loaning mine - one family had a horse sold while on loan, then several years later they plucked up the courage to try loaning again (different horse) and had to go and take the horse back because it was being neglected. The loaner then denied having received any tack/rugs with the horse (despite what it said in the contract) until the owner sent a few 'friends' around whereupon she remembered... I know of horses coming back with behavioral problems, health problems caused by lack of/inappropriate care and one ended up being put to sleep.

Ironically, having said all that, I do have a horse on loan myself - and I think I'm very lucky to have him! He's kept at the owners yard and I treat him with as much care as I do my own horse. If I'm going to change anything significant in his management I run it past them first. If I buy a new saddle or tack I ask them to double check the fit. I have help/support from them if I need it, but I'm also free to do what I want. I also know that they are happy with how I look after him. But because they see him every day, they know how he is, and what he's doing, which I think is probably the only way to really safeguard your horse.
 
I think there are good and bad sides.
I've been a loanee where it's been the owner causing the issues. I was only 14, competent rider, especially in the school but was nervous out hacking. I explained this to the owner who swore down horse was perfect, one week into loaning said horse reared on the way home and almost went over backwards.
Turns out it was a serial rearer whenever hacking!

I have loaned my current horse for just over a year and the contract ends in December when I fully intend to by him. He's my horse of a lifetime, but isn't easy and is definitely the kind of horse that it takes a while to get to know. I provided multiple references, had the yard I'm on vetted and rode him 6 times before bringing him home. All under contract.
In a year I've brought his saddle off her, brought him a brand new breastplate, two entirely new bridles and an expensive NS bit. I treat him like my own and adore him. I keep in contact with the owner via Facebook and email. I always let her know of our accomplishments and ask her advice when I have issues. I even sent her a Christmas card last year with photos from her horsey.

We do exist! Honest!!
 
Faracat said:
... your horse?

In light of the Peel case, I do wonder if loaning is ever worth the risk these days.

Updates by phone, text, email and forumsa posts can't be trusted, so how often would you need to visit the horse to be safe? Is a loan from 'your' yard the only real option?

What is the point of letting the PIO know that the horse is on loan or microchipping it, if the rumours (that the rescued horses were never officially identified) are true? Would freezemarks have been checked? Does loaning to the wrong person mean that you should forfeit ownership?

I'd be interested in your thoughts.
Click to expand...
I am from the side who would never loan my horses off the yard. That would be in contract they sign. It is just me as I have two people whos horses went awaol. Though admittedly one was sold for £1? On condition she keeps in touch and returns her if things change with the person,but sadly she did not and Lilly disapeared.

Mine are all freeze marked so are traceable, since no freezemarked horses have gone missing in 9 years.

I have no problem when they go on loan either, some people have to loan them out due to their circumstances.
 
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I've had 5 out on loan, and the ONLY one that has ever worked, worked so well that I am grateful everyday that hes in a fab home! She shared Bailey for a few months, then took him on full loan, and hes now been gifted to her. Its a perfect match and I am so happy they found each other through me. I have no worries at all, and she still gives me updates about him :) Every other one has gone wrong! and thats despite being loaned to "friends" and me trying to keep tabs.

I swore I would never loan again, but I started by sharing and then realised they were better suited to each other than he ever was to me. I still intended to keep ownership of him until the end of his days, but then I realised his loaner was worried I'd take him back and it didnt seem fair to have her live with that, considering he was much better off with her, so she gave me a £1 and I gave her a quirky, funny old sod and we are both happy :) Ironically he was the most high maintenance and quirky of my horses that I have loaned out.

So there are positive stories, but honestly, it would take a very specific set of circumstances for me to EVER do it again!
 
I can't imagine ever loaning a horse to any-one but can never understand why a considerate owner would not want to send well-fitting tack with their horse. I would be one of those owners who wanted to approve any new tack put on the horse. Neither can I understand why any-one would loan a horse to someone they don't know well at the other end of the country. I can see why people loan ponies to other members of their PC, as they can keep track of them easily.

If only the passport scheme had been thought out and implemented properly, it wouldn't be so easy for people to sell on loaned horses. But in some cases, the owner has to tame some responsibility for things going wrong. In some cases, it seems to be a case of 'out of sight, out of mind' .
 
I don't think there's any substitute for regular in person checks if I'm honest / keeping on the same yard if you can manage it (severely limits your options mind you as you limit the no of people who are close enough to your current location). Regular phone contact is also good for talking over any little niggles before they become problems. Doesn't stop bad things happening but hopefully makes picking up on things easier.

I'd also say to get any horse going on loan freezemarked / chipped / both and inform the passport company. Also make sure you know what vet the loaner will be using if not your own and that your are cleared to speak to them should the need arise.
 
Also to give you an idea of frequency when mine was out on loan I spoke to his loaner on average once a week / once a fortnight and visited about once a month. He was a tad high maintenance in terms of his health though (I paid all vet bills for existing conditions) so we had lots to discuss (I did come very close to wanting to punch the vet they used a few times though... good job he was on the other end of the phone rather than stood in front of me!)
 
To be comfortable do your homework on the loaner - loan to someone you know and/or in your horsey circle

I think visits are at least once a month (mine was local so I just drove past the field and saw him grazing - very often)
Know their farrier, dentist, YO etc and ask them when you can how the horse is getting on - they then get in the habit of giving you updates whenever you see them.
stupid stuff but know where the loaner lives, works etc and that they really are who they say they are.
In horsey circles most people know most people so if they are local and you ask around you can build up a good picture of someone pretty quickly
 
Personally I would never loan one of mine to anyone. I just couldn't trust someone else to look after my horses. Im sure there are some brilliant loaners out there but it personally isnt worth the risk to me.
That being said my OH has just put his youngster on loan. He allowed her to move yards but only locally. She ended up being moved to a yard owned by a very good friend of ours. We see her weekly and when we're not there our yard owner friend keeps an eye on things. We also have a loan agreement in place.
 
Another one here who has known good and bad loans. Ironically a loan to someone I didn't know but found through an ad went perfectly (she adored the horse, treated him like royalty and after a year bought him. He was much happier doing what she wanted than what I wanted). A loan (of a fit, well-muscled, happy horse) to a "friend" who I would have said was competent and trustworthy ended up a few months later with me collecting a ribby horse with a staring coat, no muscle and a sore back - it took 3 months to get him right again. So you can't always tell...Having said that I would loan again if it was close enough for me to check regularly.
 
Thanks for the replies. :)

What about breeding loans to well known studs?


ETA - in a situation like the quote below and if the horse had been removed by a welfare society before the owner collected it, would you have expected to have the horse identified and returned to you, the owner?

A loan (of a fit, well-muscled, happy horse) to a "friend" who I would have said was competent and trustworthy ended up a few months later with me collecting a ribby horse with a staring coat, no muscle and a sore back - it took 3 months to get him right again.
Click to expand...
 
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My mum would never let me put out my horses on loan, it's either sell them or keep them. Having native types she's super paranoid about laminitis (we've had terrible cases of lami with past horses that have resulted in them being pts) and we've managed to keep ours lami free his whole life, so for him to come back with it and even more susceptible to it than before would be a massive blow... not to mention any other injuries and/or health problems they may be sent back home with that we as the owners would have to pay out for!!! Also it would upset me if my horse came back with a different personality. If they were kept on the same yard, as I know many that loan only allow, it wouldn't be so bad as I can keep an eye out but that wasn't an option for us with our set up. When I put my horse up for sale I was asked by many people if I could do lwvtb as they didn't have the money to buy the horse upfront! For me that is a massive no as surely they don't realise the upkeep costs more than the initial purchase price and they aren't prepared to cash out for anything if anything bad happens, and I could be sent back a different horse who then I'd have to try sell on again, when I could have sold him the first time!

I think loaning is good for people who haven't owned before, if they keep the horse on the same yard and can follow the owners advice, in fact I'd recommend that to anyone starting out, but to me it seems a lot of people just want to loan as it's the easier way out of proper commitment - free tack, and horse can go back at any time if things go wrong. (I feel like I can say this as this is basically the view my mother had when I was 13 looking for a pony til she caved in and bought one. ;))

If I knew the person loaning the horse I would consider it but personally I wouldn't risk sending them away to someone I don't know, I've heard far too many horror stories... horses being sold to the slaughter house etc...
 
Faracat said:
ETA - in a situation like the quote below and if the horse had been removed by a welfare society before the owner collected it, would you have expected to have the horse identified and returned to you, the owner?
Click to expand...

It wasn't bad enough, I suspect, to interest the welfare charities. The horse was ok-ish - not starved, just very poor compared to how he was with me and not IMO in a fit state to do the work that was being asked of him. I was massively disappointed in the "friend" and felt so sorry for the horse. As far as ID he was micro-chipped and passport went with him so yes, he should have been easily identifiable.
 
Faracat said:
What about breeding loans to well known studs?
Click to expand...

I'm not a fan of breeding unless the mare in question has true talent - I suspect 95% of people don't have mares of a quality worth breeding from. If I had one they would take then I guess the surrogate situation could work (then the mares actual breeding is irrelevant - but they'd still have to have good temperament - as IMHO this is learned form the mare) but that must only be 10's of mares a year - so not really an option for the majority
 
I wouldn't. I have "permanent" loaned out one of my horses 3 times over the past three years and I've given up. First person returned him after 4 months of telling me he was doing great along with photos of how he was doing (looked absolutely fine), then out of the blue they informed me they were returning him as he was beating up their other ponies and had kicked and damaged their car in the process, shocking considering the horse was not like this (certainly would never dream of kicking a car or kicking at all!) and why had it suddenly occured after FOUR months after they'd said all was great... Anyway, then he went to someone else who again sounded like they adored him, in pics he looked well and I was planning a trip down to see him the following week, I then got a call out of the blue from someone who had just left the yard he was on telling me they were ignoring him (leaving him out in HW rugs sweltering in summer etc.) and being horrid to him, she gave me names of other people who had been on the yard, all confirmed the same things and that the people were agressive and had been harassing some of them. The people originally seemed very nice and had updated me throughout the 3 months he was there. I made my excuses to try to keep the situation calm (in case they kicked off) and picked him up 2 days later. Then I found what I thought was the most perfect home locally to me, I got references from several friends etc. and he was extremely happy there for about 6 months. Sadly, that person had to move abroad for work! I was gutted as it was a wonderful home for him. Anyway, I've given up on ever loaning again and he will spend the rest of his days at home with me. The whole thing has put me off loaning in a big way, never again!!
 
We have loaned several ponies and I like to think that we are good loaners. They are treated exactly the same as the one we own,owners kept up to date weekly and free to come and see their pony at any time, without notifying me. I have bought new rugs and tack for loan ponies, that has gone back with them. I ve always been in touch as soon as I've had any concerns and given a months notice as per contract when they have been outgrown.
I'm about to put our outgrown 24 year old first pony on loan,as soon as I can find a decent 2nd pony. She is too good to stand on a field and needs a new little person to teach,and we have found a lgreat loan home by word of mouth.I will get her Vet checked before she goes,because I know her well enough to know when she isn't right,but I can't expect someone else too.She owes us nothing,so will always come home to me,but loves to work and I'd be selfish to leave her in the field watching her companions go off and have fun.
 
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