How stoic is your horse?

[icestationzebra]

With all these posts about Rollkur going on I just wondered how much our horses put up with whilst we run about trying to do the right thing, hitting a problem and then running about scratching our heads wondering if it's this or whether it's that. How often do we end up barking up the wrong tree in our quest to try and alleviate something that might not even exist.

I'm not making myself very clear am I?

The images I've seen on You Tube showing Rollkur - looks obvious to me that these horses are at least uncomfortable, but in the main probably in considerable discomfort. These riders are supposedly world class - do they feel their horses discomfort and choose to ignore it? do they believe they are riding through resistance? Is it all worth it to win? I personally find it humbling that these horses put their head down (literally! - no that is not me making a joke of it) and seem to just get on with it. However because they do doesn't mean they should.

I've known some horses literally throw themselves inside out to get out of doing something they don't want to do - and not just as babies. Others (just like humans) seem to opt for the quiet life. I guess where is musing is going is how patient and uncomplaining is your horse about stuff - whether it be competing or training at home? One example that made me think was that earlier this year my dentist discovered a piece of wolf tooth root that was not visible but could be felt with the gag in place (I am talking about the horses mouth now not mine just in case anyone thought I played funny games with my dentist

). He said how sore it was and how sore and tricky had she been in her mouth. I was gobsmacked - the reason I had no idea this existed was mostly because she had shown no discomfort whatsover. EDT was there simply for a routine check - he was incredulous to think she had been working happily and I felt dreadful but it seems my horse simply just got on with her job. Humbling.

I'll shut up now - this isn't really going anywhere. Blame it on the tropical central heating they are pumping round the office, I'm so hot I look like I may be coming down with malaria as my face looks like this

 

[little_flea]

Good post. I find myself in exactly the same dilemma as you. I find it very hard to believe that the top riders are just totally wrong and inconsiderate. There is always the argument that the horses are just tools to top riders - but I don't really accept this when it comes to dressage or eventing particularly (perhaps sj a bit more so), these riders really care for their horses and usually really do try to do the best for them. Are the parameters in the top dressage world just so totally different to those in the world of us hobby riders? Throughout the ages animals serving humans have been subject to incredible cruelty and unfair treatment, and my belief is that it is unfortunately in their blood to often suffer in what seems like silence - but I do think they try to tell you, but we are not always that good at listening.

I saw a horse the other week competing at BD - its tail was completely to one side, something must have been seriously wrong with its pelvis - I don't know what level of pain it was in, but it didn't stop it working really hard for its rider.

 

[JenniferB]

They're good at making you feel awful aren't they? I had someone out at Jack who did massage/manipulation kind of stuff, and she couldn't believe that he was still performing given the pain and tension all over his body, but in particular through his poll and neck. God love him, he's very quick to say 'no' if he doesn't fancy something, but to soldier on when in pain like that made me feel sooo guilty!

 

[kerilli]

i think the younger they are, the less stoic they are. my two 4 yr olds tell me everything immediately (or maybe i've finally learnt how to listen!), esp the Fleetwater Opposition one, who is currently behaving as if any saddle, any girth, any amount of leg, is absolutely impossible for her to deal with... she gets very resentful and eloquent!
i've had quite a few mares and i do think they are less stoic than the boys, big generalisation though i know. or, i've just had some very intolerant opinionated mares!

 

[TableDancer]

I think, just like people, it almost entirely depnds on the individual - and is influenced by both nature ie breeding and nurture ie the way it has been brought up both by the dam and then by us lot...

I've had incredibly stoical horses, and others who can't put up with the tiniest thing wrong in their lives (pain, worry, change etc)

 

[Lolo]

My horse is wierdly stoic, yet the biggest poof you will ver find. If the ground's even slightly hard and he's doing dressage, he stresses, rushes and gets very short. Jumping, he'd go on a bed of nails. Out hunting he was kicked and didn't even limp. Pulled up at the next stop, looked properly and he was gushing blood- he looked and nearly passed out!

The most stoic pony I know is Ellie, A's pony. She put her pelvis out but kept jumping- and went round a Novice XC track with a hoof abscess without a lame step. She did the Houghton Grand Prix thingy, and put her back v v badly out through the bounce. Kept jumping the massive fences until the corner, where she pulled up. As soon as she was out of the ring she was obviously in great pin. She did her suspensories at the PC Champs, yet continued round the XC until 5 fences later when it all got too much. She was motoring until the point where she pulled up. A always felt so gilt for not noticing, but there was nothing she could do- if your pony is motoring, pulling you into fences and jumping really well the thought she's in apin just doesn't happen.

 

[daisycrazy]

It is very difficult, partly because I'm sure different horses have different pain thresholds, as well as different tolerance for enduring pain when being ridden. I have absolutely no idea why my horse is only too happy to jump and dressage with a broken neck, or whether he is in any pain or how much. All I can go on is his body language and expression which is very enthusiastic and willing. I think some horses love working and being clever and doing things for you/with you and as a result they are willing to go through some discomfort, a little bit like we will get on with painful hips/back/knees, broken fingers/toes, etc.. I agree that they shouldn't have to, but if they don't tell you it hurts or object in any way then it is very difficult to judge. I think sometimes it is the best athletes that it is easiest to bully into working through pain - because they are supple and active it is easier to manipulate their bodies. I imagine a tense and resistant TB is not so easy to put into Rollkur, for example, than a soft, naturally rounded and supple warmblood.

 

[Festive_Felicitations]

I have met some horses that are incredibly stoic but in different ways, ie current gelding will put up with all sorts of stupid things from me like riding & attempting to school with crossed reins, boots on wrong legs, bridle back to front, attempting to do rug up inside out (ok that sounds terrible but those 'blonde' moment have been spread across about 7yrs). But will throw the towel in at the first hint of pain (except XC where adrenaline rules).
And others (mainly a specific mare) who wouldn't suffer fools, but no matter how tired or how long a day she had had would find the extra energy to catch that last cow, would keep going even though she had a major stone bruise, had seriously hurt her hip slipping in the mud and the 'signs' she gave were so slight you had to really know her to know something was wrong (the other explanation is that she was brililant but bonkers...which does explain alot)
Than there was Lucy (aka Remmington) who took nothing from nobody and riding him and actually getting anywhere was an intensive course in diplomacy and peace treaty negotiation.


I think for many horse they have been bred to be obedient / for the will to work for us, bit like sheep instinct in dogs, and so they will work through pain to try and please - leaving an enormous onus (?) on our shoulders not to exploit it. And in some cases I do think top riders with the pressure that is on them do take advantage, when they should know better.
Actually I would consider a good rider some one who can and does listen to the signs and acts accordingly.

 

[kit279]

You can tell the characters of our two horses by watching them being shod. Once all their shoes are off, the chestnut will stand quietly not making a fuss. The grey fidgets about in his bare feet and is not comfortable until he's shod. Both have flat TB feet and are quite uncomfortable without shoes but the chestnut just puts up with it. When they've had abscesses, the chestnut keeps walking on it, the grey horse will not put his foot down and will hop on 3 legs rather than weight bear. I think it's just the way they are but I make a lot more fuss over the chestnut because he's such a trooper.

 

[millitiger]

Pilfer is very stoic jumping- i think he would still jump with 3 legs!

at one event he stopped in the warm up and decked me into a fence (this horse does not stop!). i got back on, gave him a few cracks up the bum, he stopped twice more with me in the warm up and then we went in...
and he jumped a clear round (BE Novice).

he had a very stiff, almost frozen shoulder that caused his whole foreleg to come out of alignment and his foot would roll when it landed from outside to inside.
i still feel awfully guilty about making him jump when i should have realised something was wrong and pulled up.

however, when doing dressage you can feel the instant something is wrong and he won't work at all- stick a fence up and he will forget whatever the issue was!

 

[finefeathers1]

Yep, my cob is the equine equivalent of Phil Mitchell and as stoic as they come. He's been a bit of a sicknote this year with two doses of colic, lameness which resulted in him going to 'hospital' at the vets and latterly the discovery he has a pollen allergy. He just gets on with it, I only know something is wrong because I know him so well.

 

[spookypony]

The Spooky Pony lets me know very quickly if something is the matter. Part of the difficulty with him is actually that he's such a sweet and willing pony most of the time, but when something in my riding really confuses or bothers him, he just seems to lose his head completely. He regains it quickly enough, but by that point, I may well have landed on my butt again...

He seems very sensitive to physical pain from e.g. injuries, and doesn't like being poked and prodded. Universally, his reaction to discomfort of any kind is a vigorous attempt at escape.

He's definitely not very stoic, I think!

 

[icestationzebra]

Interesting replies - thanks. I guess this reiterates that all horses are individuals and should be treated as such, both through stable management and training. I find it fascinating that we learn all this stuff effectively through sign language

 

[ester]

Frank it depends on the thing, he seems to be stoic when he has a bad back and I have to pick up on the smallest of signs. he will keep working well and jumping.

However injury/illness wise he thinks he is going to die. everything is a drama. often gets magically better at the realisation that grazing is going to be restricted

 

[Flame_]

[ QUOTE ]
I find it very hard to believe that the top riders are just totally wrong and inconsiderate. There is always the argument that the horses are just tools to top riders

[/ QUOTE ]
I think the vast majority of top riders have got there because they are capable and prepared to get impressive work out of horses screaming that they would rather not do it for various reasons. Getting fabulous work out of "b'stards" is what makes pro's names, aside from the ones who had wealthy parents and amazing ponies right from juniors.

 

[Alibear]

Pain wise mine is very stoic.

Scary things and hard work wise, not stoic AT ALL.

 

[TarrSteps]

Ah, one of my topics of interest . .

As far as flat out pain thresh hold goes, even given individual differences, horses are far more stoic than I think we, puny humans, can understand. Every horse that has colic is woken up within virtually minutes, put back on its feet, and WALKED back to its recovery stall (albeit slowly and with pain meds) and given water and some food relatively soon. Imagine asking a person who has just has his/her appendix out (let alone a few feet of intestine) top hop on off the table and get back to recovery under his/her own steam!?!?!?

It's just in horses to tolerate pain. That's what prey animals have to do to survive as if you show weakness, you're lunch. Also, they're hardwired to move when they are hurt/stressed as getting away has to be the first priority. (Hence the movement stereotypies like weaving and box walking and the inclination for most horses to run/nap when stressed.) We even manipulate that instinct a lot of the time by winding horses up then "controlling" that intrinsic urge to move by pointing it where we want to go. Obviously, that plan has some holes in it but we've all seen horses rushing headlong into situations without apparent thought. The problem is when they're going where we want we think it's great, when they're going somewhere else, we don't.

Some of it depends on the individual, of course - some are more expressive than others. I really don't think this is necessarily an accurate gauge of actual discomfort BUT I don't think it's a reason to ignore subtle signs either.

It also depends on the horse's experience and how likely it feels it is to be "listened" to. "Learned helplessness" has become the hot phrase now but there are lots of levels below this. Like kids that get hit if they talk back - they either learn to not talk back or to take it or to escalate their resistance until they gain relief that way. There is an old saying, the greatest pleasure is relief from pain. Personally, I would rather listen early on but then it's my decision what we're going to do about it. I think, if you're fair, that's the best way to strike a balance. I always say the horses have input but they don't have a vote.

The fact is many of the things we ask of horses are uncomfortable. No way around it. They aren't even "made" to be ridden as they're suspension bridges by design, made so their body weight "hangs" from their top line. Back luck for them they come with a place to put a saddle.

I always tell people being ridden is a job. And that's what they're FOR now, both through breeding and through circumstance so I'm a okay with forcing the issue a bit from time to time. That doesn't mean horses can't learn to "enjoy" their job and do it well, especially if they're well prepared and it's a relatively comfortable experience, which has a lot to do with individual strengths and weaknesses, not just training. But in the end the rider is the horse's boss and owes it to the horse to provide a good working environment if he/she wants to reap the ultimate benefits.

 

[TarrSteps]

Wow, that was kind of annoying and now it's too late to take it out. Sorry, I get a bit enthusiastic about this stuff. Free Bombay Saphire and Schweppes tonic to anyone irritated by the above. (Offer only available in SW London between the hours of 8 and 11 on October 29, 2009.

)

 

[icestationzebra]

I think that was cool stuff - thanks T-S. Interesting an old horsewoman told me once when I was a kid that the most unfortunate thing for horses was that they had a space for a saddle - I haven't heard that expression for years. She was the same lady that made me ride in a headcollar until my hands were good enough for a bridle. I kind of thought she was a bit batty at the time but on reflection a lot of what she said made sense and the horses always came first. I haven't thought about her for a long time and you have just reminded me TS - thanks