How supportive are Vets when it comes to the 'final decision'?

Tinsel Trouble

Tinsel Trouble

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Following on from the "Horse charities - conditions for PTS" thread there appears to be a common theme that the Vets try to medicate and prolong life when the ultimate decision is likely that that the animal should be put to sleep.

I have experianced this with (most recently) an tumour ridden guinea pig when the vet sent me back with drugs, despite trying to start a conversation about putting Bessie to sleep. I wanted the Vet to make the decision and talk through the process. Our horse vets are amazing, they discuss all the options through and let us know the prognosis and support our descision, answer questions and even make the initial suggestion it comes to treatments and especially putting our furry four hooved friends to sleep.

Does anyone know why some vets seem to be less proactive when it comes to putting horse to sleep (especially very old horses), and more importantly, how can we help the vets support us more with the final decision.

THIS IS NOT A DIG AT VETS, I AM JUST INTERESTED TO KNOW WHY AND HOW VETS CAN HELP US GOING FOREWARDS!
 
When I had to have my cat PTS, the vet said she could be put on medication, but the likelihood of this improving her life would be minimal, and that in her opinion PTS would be the better option.

Again with my guinea pig, vet said essentially the same, but that the medication would have little effect and weekly injections just wouldn't be fair.

On both occasions, the vet (two different ones) said that they would back whatever decision we had made, and would do their best to help our pets.

IMO, the vet should always say what would be the better option for the animal. What will prevent them any further suffering should be their first option offered to the owner.
 
I don't know. But in my experience I have never once been advised by a vet to PTS. It has always been a decision I have had to make myself. I once witnessed a horse with a broken femur that should have been PTS two months before he actually was. Even though the vet said it was broken, he let the owner keep going with the box rest clinging to the hope that he would pull through. He didn't. He just got so bad that finally he could not move at all in his stable and water and food had to be brought to his head. Not once did the vet say he should be PTS! Of course, the day he could no longer move the owner insisted on PTS. But IMO the vet should have advised it long before it got that far.
 
when my dog had exploratory stomach surgery the vet told me their policy was to recommend pts if there were tumours inside him cos theres such a poor prognosis with any treatment-luckily there was no tumours just a bottle cap!
 
my vet told me that my mare was best pts and that's what he feels was best ( I had decided I wanted that anyway) he was great and gave me a big hug which set me off and I was a wreak but held my mare until the end. I never get any problems with my vet they seem to tell it "as it is" which is what I like.
 
That's really interesting, and seems to be the best practise.

I am always shocked to hear stories when vets have not been that forward. In my experiance the vet was incredibly young, and I wonder whether she either didn't have the experiance (and associated confidence) to broach the subject, or she just didn't know how to deal with the potential waterworks (and any conflict) so tried to avoid the situations...
 
Vets apparently, are not allowed to tell you to PTS, they are only able to make suggestions for fear of litigation which to my mind is a load of crap trap. They SHOULD be allowed to insist if it's in the horse's best interests especially when the owner is being a prize wimp for not facing up to reality of how bad things are. At the same time, many, mainly newish vets don't like to PTS anything that's breathing and will do everything in their power not to even when it's the decent answer; there are even some that are mercenary enough to continue with expensive treatment when there is no hope of recovery which is unforgivable IMO.
In some cases, the responsibility should be removed from the owner for the sake of the animal but I can't see it happening as it does sound a bit like big brother. It's always the animal that suffers.
 
Wagtail said:
I don't know. But in my experience I have never once been advised by a vet to PTS. It has always been a decision I have had to make myself. I once witnessed a horse with a broken femur that should have been PTS two months before he actually was. Even though the vet said it was broken, he let the owner keep going with the box rest clinging to the hope that he would pull through. He didn't. He just got so bad that finally he could not move at all in his stable and water and food had to be brought to his head. Not once did the vet say he should be PTS! Of course, the day he could no longer move the owner insisted on PTS. But IMO the vet should have advised it long before it got that far.
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How can we help the vets stop this from happening and help support or even guide a decision? Is it possible?
 
Trouble4125 said:
How can we help the vets stop this from happening and help support or even guide a decision? Is it possible?
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http://www.newc.co.uk/issues/docume...df?PHPSESSID=02f8cb7fcfdd9de117220c40808c8cd8

In the instance of the horse having a broken leg, that is neglect and suffering the horse, os had somebody reported it, the horse wouldn't have suffered. Saying that, the vet should have advised to PTS than keep the animal alive.
NEWC are really good at giving advice for all kinds of situations :)
 
RiderLizzie said:
http://www.newc.co.uk/issues/docume...df?PHPSESSID=02f8cb7fcfdd9de117220c40808c8cd8

In the instance of the horse having a broken leg, that is neglect and suffering the horse, os had somebody reported it, the horse wouldn't have suffered. Saying that, the vet should have advised to PTS than keep the animal alive.
NEWC are really good at giving advice for all kinds of situations :)
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That link is great, but it seems to deal with a neglect situation and puts the onus on the owner to do the best thing for their animal- day to day that is brilliant, but in an accident situation I can see it being a bit patchy!!

My little brain would interpret the act that the vet would stabilise the animal and then quote the Animal Act and the Owner's legal responsibility to a distressed owner at a very difficult and emotive time. If that were to happen the Vet is likely to be escorted off the premises!

I can see the legislative framework is in place, but how can the vets make it work in the best interest of the animal when it seems to place the burden of responsibility on the owner? It's a very difficult position for a vet to be in. Isn't it?
 
My vet has always been supportive of my decision.

We have talked it through and come to a mutual decision that it was best for the animal concerned.
 
The last horse I had to have pts, was my 34 year old Shire X. For such a big horse, it was a remarkable age to have got to. I made the decision once he was still lame on 3 butes a day, and when I noticed he was struggling to get up if he rolled. He had also started not being able to regulate his temperature and we were just going into a spring heatwave, which was making him miserable. Once I had made my decision and instructed my vets, they were very kind and sympathetic and I had wanted him to be heavily sedated before the injection, which they did for me.

However I found that throughout the year leading up to me making 'my decision' the vets were trying to encourage me to take my horse into the clinic for exploratory tests. They suggested I have his feet x-rayed as it would be interesting to see if his pedal bones had rotated. They also suggested we could start some injections and tildren treatments. On a 33 year old horse I was astonished and very unimpressed that they obviously wanted me to fund their own research! Invasive and stressfull procedures done to a 33 year old horse would have been downright cruel in my opiniom and I told them this.
 
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amymay said:
I did.
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I think this is the problem, an experienced owner will know when there is no hope and can raise the question, the vet is usually then very supportive, it is the less experienced owner, with maybe no one else to support them that the vet would need to make the suggestion. In this situation they are often not prepared to bring it up, leaving the owners with no idea what to do for the best.
I had a pony pts a few weeks ago, he was not happy and had gone downhill really quickly, when I phoned my vet to make arrangements he was surprised that I was making the decision so quickly, he supported me but I felt a question in his mind , when he arrived at the yard he could see immediately it was the right thing to do.
If I had been less experienced the pony would probably still be here, with no real hope and with his other issues a rather pointless future, living in, which he hated, he had been a field ornament for years and if he could not go back to that he would have been a very stressed unhappy pony.
So yes I do feel that vets should be more able to broach the subject, I think I have always had to make the suggestion of when it is the right time, but the first time was probably the most difficult.
 
I think this is the problem, an experienced owner will know when there is no hope and can raise the question, the vet is usually then very supportive, it is the less experienced owner, with maybe no one else to support them that the vet would need to make the suggestion. In this situation they are often not prepared to bring it up, leaving the owners with no idea what to do for the best.
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I think you're right.
 
I do have a vet who will say (in the kindest possible way) when he thinks the time has come for pts.
For instance, one of my cats had a stroke: the vet said, 'we could hospitalise her and keep her alive but her brain is damaged and she would most likely have another crisis in a few weeks' time.' Then he told me exactly what he was going to give her, how long it would take for her to go, and we sat with the cat and chatted about her life as she slipped away.

All the vets at this practice are straight talking but kind and would not prolong life to up the bills. I know I am lucky to have such good vets to go to.
 
When I lost my lad Bob to colic, my vet was completely brilliant. He tried all he could to save him, but in the end, he explained everything, and went through everything. He helped me, in my own mind make the decision ,that was right for my beautiful boy, even though it broke my heart,and even though I knew it was the kindest thing I could do for my boy. He took care of him with such kindness and dignity, and afterwards he gave me a big hug. He also took care of the aftermath for me, all the arrangements, and I couldn't have asked for a better vet. He really helped me through one of the most traumatic times of my life, and I can't thank him enough.
 
be positive said:
If I had been less experienced the pony would probably still be here... So yes I do feel that vets should be more able to broach the subject, I think I have always had to make the suggestion of when it is the right time, but the first time was probably the most difficult.
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Is the prolonging of life due to the Owner's inexperiance, or the Vets? Are vets taught how to work with people, or simply the animal?

My Welsh D has early arthritic changes in his pelvis. I know that one day I will have to make a decision and I know that I won't be able to do it, because I care for my pony too much! What I really want is a vet who tells me that pts is the best option, because it is a degenerative disease (as in dis-ease) that can only be managed to a point. How do you ensure your vet helps you make that decision? Should I speak to them now about it?
 
I think that vets are trained to work with animals, that is after all their job, it is rather more complex though as the animals have owners, not every vet is good at dealing with people and the emotions that go with owning an unwell animal. Horse owners want to do the right thing for their animal and a vet can now offer so many treatments or diagnostics by the time they have tried everything it is often giving false hope to the owner.
Arthritic conditions seem to be one of the worst things, the horse can be in constant pain relieved to some extent by drugs but there is no cure so at some point a decision has to be made.
In your situation I would bring up the subject the next time you see your vet, explain how you feel, that you know at some point the decision needs to be made and what does he feel is best for your pony, how long before he will find it difficult to get up is something to bear in mind with a pelvic problem. You do not have to act yet but have a plan, how, disposal, ashes etc all this can be arranged in advance without feeling disloyal to your pony.
Your vet will probably be relieved that you have started to think about this and should give you support along the way.
Your pony will hopefully be with you for some time yet, but he will be grateful that he has a caring owner that puts his needs ahead of their own.
 
I think a vet would rather have an owner who knows what they want - as I've never heard of any vet dispute an owners decision, and in my experiences they've always been brilliant and supportive when I have instructed them. However if asked for advice or for their opinions, the vets I know would rather advise new treatment options rather than PTS (obviously bar those unfortunate circumstances where on-the-spot pts is the only humane option). It's not rocket science - vets operate a business, and if the vet can get several thousand more pounds out of an owner, and try out their newest treatments along the way then they would be silly not to.

I sometimes think it's a good thing that the insurance companies cease covering older horses for illness, otherwise there would be many more poor, poor elderly horses being put through inappropriate and stressful invasive 'treatments' for what end?
 
Misinterpreted said:
However if asked for advice or for their opinions, the vets I know would rather advise new treatment options rather than PTS (obviously bar those unfortunate circumstances where on-the-spot pts is the only humane option). It's not rocket science - vets operate a business, and if the vet can get several thousand more pounds out of an owner, and try out their newest treatments along the way then they would be silly not to.
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Surely this counteracts their code of ethics to provide the best treatment for the animals?!
 
Hmm, I've found male vets pretty direct. For example with my very injured broody, the second vet called looked at it, asked the value of the horse and foal and said that economically I would be far better off PTS as he could not guarantee a good outcome and it could cost up to £5K. Similarly my vet phoned when my Great Dane was on the operating table to say that he should be PTS in his opinion. However, as part of my meeting with the first vets who saw my broody, we did ask why nobody discussed PTS with us and they said 'not their policy to PTS healthy animals'

Similary I watched my neighbours box resting a 16 year old severe laminitic pony for 9months before the vets eventually advised PTS - I think that's criminal. The neighbours were really novicey and really needed better advice. They are now divorced and I really don't think the £10K and associated stress helped.
 
scarymare said:
Hmm, I've found male vets pretty direct. For example with my very injured broody, the second vet called looked at it, asked the value of the horse and foal and said that economically I would be far better off PTS as he could not guarantee a good outcome and it could cost up to £5K. Similarly my vet phoned when my Great Dane was on the operating table to say that he should be PTS in his opinion. However, as part of my meeting with the first vets who saw my broody, we did ask why nobody discussed PTS with us and they said 'not their policy to PTS healthy animals' .
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Can we have an update on your mare (or have i missed it) I've been thinking about her alot since the big debate and pics!
 
Trouble4125 said:
Surely this counteracts their code of ethics to provide the best treatment for the animals?!
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But it's rarely as clear cut as that. The only times I've heard a vet tell an owner there is only one option, is literally if the horse can't get up. With today’s scientific advances in veterinary medicine, and the new techniques, there are drugs and treatments that could be tried to relieve nearly everything, and if you are prepared to pay, and let the horse go through it, it's not 'considered' to be inhumane, and a lot inexperienced or overemotional owners will believe it's best for the horse.
 
Trouble4125 said:
Can we have an update on your mare (or have i missed it) I've been thinking about her alot since the big debate and pics!
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Gosh thanks, I must get some new pics - actually its looking much better, the main problem is as her body has other priorities its just not healing quickly. Her dressing is changed twice a week and we keep thinking its getting smaller but the reality is different I suspect. She's still very happy and seeing the positive side of life so I'm pleased I made the decision I did. Hubby is paying the vets bill in return for owning the foal - so its all good!
 
My vet was fantastic.
Talked me through it before hand, told me exactily what to expect. Even rang the insurance company on our behalf to try and convince them to pay out. Sadly it didn't work but the vets were kind, sympathetic and he even came out in his own time to do it. (He started work at 9am but came and put my horse down at 8am so I wouldn't have all day to think about it)
 
scarymare said:
Gosh thanks, I must get some new pics - actually its looking much better, the main problem is as her body has other priorities its just not healing quickly. Her dressing is changed twice a week and we keep thinking its getting smaller but the reality is different I suspect. She's still very happy and seeing the positive side of life so I'm pleased I made the decision I did. Hubby is paying the vets bill in return for owning the foal - so its all good!
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You need to do a big update for us all! Glad to hear things have settled down. I didn't want to pm you just incase it wasn't positive news!
 
Trouble4125 said:
Is the prolonging of life due to the Owner's inexperiance, or the Vets? Are vets taught how to work with people, or simply the animal?

My Welsh D has early arthritic changes in his pelvis. I know that one day I will have to make a decision and I know that I won't be able to do it, because I care for my pony too much! What I really want is a vet who tells me that pts is the best option, because it is a degenerative disease (as in dis-ease) that can only be managed to a point. How do you ensure your vet helps you make that decision? Should I speak to them now about it?
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vets are obviously taught to treat the animal but handling owners is also in their training but I would imagine it's a case of practise makes perfect to know how well they actually do relate to an owner.

Perhaps I'm a simple soul but I find it very hard to understand when people say they NEED someone else to tell them to put down their horse even when they know it is in great pain simply because they love it so much. There's no easy way to say this and I don't want to offend you but if you really care for it you will do your best for it even if that deed will cause you pain; to do less and hang on and hang on while the horse deteriorates is just plain selfishness even if you do it out of love for the animal; he doesn't know that, he just knows he's in pain and wants it to stop.
It's never easy but it's the last act of love you can do for them and they deserve that not a desperate end when they can't get up without falling back down again; life should never be a struggle for them, it's up to us to see it isn't.

What you can do is talk to your vet and be honest with them that you need to know, for them to tell you (if you don't realise that yourself) that it's time when the time's right. Of course, you have to hope that your vet does have his patient's best interests at heart and not his pocket but hopefully you will have found that out beforehand.
 
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