How supportive are Vets when it comes to the 'final decision'?

Misinterpreted said:
With today’s scientific advances in veterinary medicine, and the new techniques, there are drugs and treatments that could be tried to relieve nearly everything, and if you are prepared to pay, and let the horse go through it, it's not 'considered' to be inhumane, and a lot inexperienced or overemotional owners will believe it's best for the horse.
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Is it really a simple case of vets being reluctant to make a decision, and using the experiance to practise on emotional owners' horse to further their own career?! (I don't mean to be inflamatory... I'm just shocked!) I know that in a situation where I have to make a tough decision for a member of the family I want support, and someone else to take some control- not a vet in a position of power pursuading me to prolong a difficult situation and stop the pain for an owner for a couple of months!!
 
Maesfen said:
Perhaps I'm a simple soul but I find it very hard to understand when people say they NEED someone else to tell them to put down their horse even when they know it is in great pain simply because they love it so much. There's no easy way to say this and I don't want to offend you but if you really care for it you will do your best for it even if that deed will cause you pain; to do less and hang on and hang on while the horse deteriorates is just plain selfishness even if you do it out of love for the animal; he doesn't know that, he just knows he's in pain and wants it to stop.
It's never easy but it's the last act of love you can do for them and they deserve that not a desperate end when they can't get up without falling back down again; life should never be a struggle for them, it's up to us to see it isn't.
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You're absolutely right. I was going to change that to something along the lines of too selfish to have a proper opinion in the heat of the moment. I just know that I will need support to make the right decision, even when I have suggested pts as an option. I do not want a vet to turn around and start debating other options with me!
 
I am not sure how much training vets are given in this area. When I asked my vet to come out and discuss putting down my 11 year old pony, he brought a student who was on her last day of the placement. The poor girl obviously had no idea how to react when faced with a weeping owner. It was obviously upsetting and embarrassing for her but I hope she learned from it as my own vet is excellent in this situation.
 
Lol, glad we're on the same hymn sheet then!

In that case why not start talking to your vets next time you/he see them and tell them that (when the time is right) you don't want him to go through any further tests/treatments and if they are needed to make him easier then you want to call it a day? That way, they will know you are already being responsible by considering the option so will have no excuse to try to pressurize you into treatment you don't think is fair to him so should give you all the support you need from them..
Believe me, you will also have all the support you need from on here too. There are some in the minority of keeping alive at any cost to the animal but the majority are far more realistic especially when they know you are doing it with his best interest at heart. Hopefully that time is a way off yet.
 
Trouble4125 said:
Is it really a simple case of vets being reluctant to make a decision, and using the experiance to practise on emotional owners' horse to further their own career?! (I don't mean to be inflamatory... I'm just shocked!) I know that in a situation where I have to make a tough decision for a member of the family I want support, and someone else to take some control- not a vet in a position of power pursuading me to prolong a difficult situation and stop the pain for an owner for a couple of months!!
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Being on a large livery yard, with a fair number of retired veteran horses here, I see it a lot - horses whose digestive systems are packing up, horses with crippling arthritic joint and foot problems, almost blind horses...if there's hope of trying something new to relieve the problem, it will be suggested. There are 3 different practises that come to our yard for different owners, and they are pretty much all the same tbh.
If there's no other option, or if the owner has decided it's time, our vets will always be very supportive.
 
Misinterpreted said:
Being on a large livery yard, with a fair number of retired veteran horses here, I see it a lot - horses whose digestive systems are packing up, horses with crippling arthritic joint and foot problems, almost blind horses...if there's hope of trying something new to relieve the problem, it will be suggested. There are 3 different practises that come to our yard for different owners, and they are pretty much all the same tbh.
If there's no other option, or if the owner has decided it's time, our vets will always be very supportive.
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Is it some sort of badge of honour that their horse has more problems than the average horse? Why are they kept like this, and who steps in to say enough is enough?
 
Trouble4125 said:
Is it some sort of badge of honour that their horse has more problems than the average horse? Why are they kept like this, and who steps in to say enough is enough?
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Good grief, not one single horse has had all these issues all at once. I was just saying that being in contact with a lot of horses and different owners, over many years you will see things every now and again that you don't agree with. If the vet thinks there is still hope for some improvement - and if the owner has not mentioned pts, then the vet will always offer the hope.
 
Misinterpreted said:
Good grief, not one single horse has had all these issues all at once. I was just saying that being in contact with a lot of horses and different owners, over many years you will see things every now and again that you don't agree with. If the vet thinks there is still hope for some improvement - and if the owner has not mentioned pts, then the vet will always offer the hope.
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Sorry! Blonde moment!
 
Vets are not taught really how to break the news to PTS to owners in collage.
We are thought the medicine side of things.No business.No psychology.(which would be very useful considering that dealing with owners is one of the most challenging parts of veterinary)No client communication skills bar what we learn from clinical rotations....so we learn by observation and experiencing situations as they come.So some people are better at it than others.

In our collage they did have an optional "Communication in vet practice" module in second year,but it wasn't compulsory.I chose to do it personally but not everyone in my year did.
We do however do a hugh amount of placement in practices outside of the collage.This is this experience that generally provides opportunities to acquire a broader range of skills to cope with how to deal with difficult situations from watching how older experienced colleagues deal with them.Best practice will not always be learnt from this but it does allow people to experience a wide range of different attitudes and begin to form their own ideas and opinons on what they would do in the same scenario.
In our final year we spend a year working in a clinical setting and this also has the potential to teach us how to deal with these settings.However this is depending on if we have a tragic cases or not and on wether the clinician feels it is appropriate for the student to be present.

Its not however a clear cut case of here this is when x is to be suggested.It is very much owner dependent bar in an obvious trauma case or in areas where welfare is being seriously compromised.
It is up to the individual vet to determine where the line of compromised welfare is.....based on our experience and professional opinion.That is not an easy thing to do in some cases.Particularly if the animal could be treated and potentially have a good quality of life on medication.In most cases it is an owners final decision.They are the people who deal with the animals day in day out.They know their pets and when they are having a good or bad day and in most cases owners will be able to make the call that the animal is beginning to have a poor quality of life.In some cases it is simply just waiting for the conversation of where do we go from here to come up so options can be discussed.
It is very difficult to insist on euthanasia if the owner is still keen to continue treatments.A dog who seems depressed or scared in a vet clinic might be bright and alert at home.An animal is an owners property and unless there is a serious welfare issue it is difficult to just insist you must put this animal to sleep.Though in some cases this has to be done.These are never enjoyable scenarios for anyone involved particularly in cases where it is an economic issue.
So it depends on the individual vet to give the options and encourage in each case the best option for that particular animal.Personally I have a large animal outlook on things and do count PTS as a valid treatment option.It relieves suffering of the animal.Some of my colleagues would only consider it as a very last option.

PTS is an emotive subject for owner so in many cases each vet has their own individual limit as to where they will step up and say...i think it may be time to consider...
In some clinics there are policies where healthy animals will not routinely be given the option of PTS if they have a treatable condition in many others it is up to the Vets personal, professional opinion and their judgement.So it can vary an awful lot.

Sorry for the rambling post.I think it may be time for bed here but thought id try to explain some of the reasons why there are such variations..
 
I had a cat hit by a car with spinal injuries and internal bleeding - the vet wanted to operate, even though he said it would be a long recovery, the cat may be permanently unable to walk, expensive and maybe unsucessful. When I told him I would have to pay by instalment, if we chose that option, he changed his mind and suggested that the cat be PTS, which was what I expected anyway. I think it would have been horrific to try and "save" him, when he had already suffered enough.
 
I was once talking to an older vet who did locum work for vets on holiday. She said they came back to find a lot patients had been PTS, she thought alot of the owners were to frightened to bring the subject up and were waiting for someone to say that it was an option.
 
Ive never had a vet try to influence me to keep going with treatment when it wasnt viable. In one case there was no doubt, a broken leg was untreatable. Another, we discussed and agreed we would do what was possible but remain pragmatic about the situation and call it a day sooner rather than later if necessary.

More recently, after failed treatment and horsepital stay for a horse, we asked the vet 'What would YOU do if this was your horse?' and the reply was 'If this was MY horse, Id call it a day'.
He could have tried to sell us expensive and lengthy treatments that werent guaranteed to work and even if they did, the horse would have had ongoing problems none of us were willing to inflict on her.


so all in all, Im very happy with my vets. But they know I will do everything I can for a horse *up to a point* and am unwilling to put them through too much when the outcome is bleak.
 
When Lucy was diagnosed with her illness the vet at liphook advised I PTS. The only treatment was steroids (Lucy was a lami pony) and the chances of her making it passed xmas were very very slim. (She was diagnosed in Nov) But he said it was upto me. I desided on treatment. My own vets were very supportive but they like me knew Lucy was a fighter and wasn't ready to give up. She lasted another 8 months. While I was away on holiday Lucy went down hill very fast (litraly overnight :( ) My friend who was looking after Lucy phoned the vet who then phoned me nearly in tears. She said she thought Lucy was giving up :( But she wasn't suffering and she could try to keep her stable till I got back. I was away for two weeks and had no way of getting back :( :( :( So I made the awful desition to let Lucy go without saying goodbye. My vet was amazing. She organised everything for me and was even with Lucy at the end. Even though she didn't have to be as I wanted Lucy to go to hounds. My vet arranged it all so it was in her own time and I wouldn't get charged for her being there. She even gave Lucy someof her favorate treats at the end.
She phoned me once Lucy was gone to let me know it had all gone ok and Lucy wasn't suffering :( She spoke to me for ages while I just cryed down the phone and she tried to re assure me I had done the best thing.
I will never be able to thank her enough for all she did for Lucy that day. Or all she did through her illness. Lucy was always put first right upto the endand thats how it should be.
 
I am another who has the 'what would you do if it were your animal' conversation.

Vet with my dog gave me three options, said he would PTS, and chlo was PTS the next week.

But I trust our vets and I have a strong idea of what I want done before I get there anyway. We know our animals xx
 
jeeve said:
I had a cat hit by a car with spinal injuries and internal bleeding - the vet wanted to operate, even though he said it would be a long recovery, the cat may be permanently unable to walk, expensive and maybe unsucessful. When I told him I would have to pay by instalment, if we chose that option, he changed his mind and suggested that the cat be PTS, which was what I expected anyway. I think it would have been horrific to try and "save" him, when he had already suffered enough.
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Ghastly for you. Friends of ours have same atm with their cat. Its lost all feeling and cannot express urine. She has to come home 3 times a day to express the urine for the cat by pressing on its abdomen. No sign of recovery and has been 3 months now. I really do think that the vets responsible (same ones who messed up my broody) should be reported or worse for this.
 
scarymare said:
Ghastly for you. Friends of ours have same atm with their cat. Its lost all feeling and cannot express urine. She has to come home 3 times a day to express the urine for the cat by pressing on its abdomen. No sign of recovery and has been 3 months now. I really do think that the vets responsible (same ones who messed up my broody) should be reported or worse for this.
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Yes it was, to be honest. I went out to the car after and it was a long while before I could drive home. I know i did the right thing. I also understand that vets are human and I guess have different opinions about things, but still not matter what their opinions are - you should be given the facts and the alternatives.
 
scarymare said:
Ghastly for you. Friends of ours have same atm with their cat. Its lost all feeling and cannot express urine. She has to come home 3 times a day to express the urine for the cat by pressing on its abdomen. No sign of recovery and has been 3 months now. I really do think that the vets responsible (same ones who messed up my broody) should be reported or worse for this.
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Reported for what exactly?

And why haven't the owners simply instructed the vet to put the cat to sleep??
 
honetpot said:
I was once talking to an older vet who did locum work for vets on holiday. She said they came back to find a lot patients had been PTS, she thought alot of the owners were to frightened to bring the subject up and were waiting for someone to say that it was an option.
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This is exactly what I want; a vet who lets me know all the options. I have known in a few situations what the right decision is, but to utter the words is almost impossible. I don't think it makes me a bad owner, or irresponsible!
 
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