How to become dominant?

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Cedars

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Been bitten today by a mare that smashed my kneecap during the week by kicking me.

She's extremely dominant. Any advice on what on earth I can do to become more dominant in her eyes? Losing will to live with her.

Thanks. x
 
I would look at the book perfect manners by kelly marks and do the exercises int there.

I usually do the basics first like making sure the horse backs up when asked, comes forward then backs up again. Must move over when I say so, keep out of my space unless invited.

one thing is to make sure you NEVER EVER move away from her if she invades your space, it must always be her that moves out of your space
 
Thing is, when you ask her to back up, she'll fight you. She'll bite, spin her butt to you, force herself into you.

Do you think if I did this in the school, on a lunge line (so I still have hold of her), it would translate to the box as well?

She booted me the other day because I placed my hand on her bum and asked her to move across.
 
I'd muzzle her when leading her in and out of the stable and handling her if she were mine. And follow the Kelly Marks training where it was safe to do so. Or get help.

There used to be a vicious horse at a yard I worked at. She only attacked the female staff, so the husband of the YO did all the handling. He put a chifney on her to lead her in and out, held her head while we picked her feet out, groomed her, and held a leg up while we changed rugs because she kicked too.

The chifney stopped her trying it on with the chap as I know it really peed her [the horse] off that she couldn't kick or bite us. She respected the chap, even though he was the most mild mannered guy...
 
flamehead said:
Thing is, when you ask her to back up, she'll fight you. She'll bite, spin her butt to you, force herself into you.

Do you think if I did this in the school, on a lunge line (so I still have hold of her), it would translate to the box as well?

She booted me the other day because I placed my hand on her bum and asked her to move across.
Click to expand...

Firstly, always keep yourself safe and make sure you are wearing a hat and gloves when dealing with her. I wouldn't even try working in a school with her, I would start at close quarters so that she can't spin around on you. For backing out of your space, the easiest way I have found to teach them, is a finger in the shoulder, just on the bone. Start with a gentle prod and increase the pressure until she shows any sign of moving away from it, then immediately stop and praise her. You may have to put quite a bit of pressure on to start but she will quickly learn that if she moves away immediately then it doesn't get uncomfortable, I have never had one not respond to this (eventually in some cases!!) Make sure that when you speak to her you use a 'mean it' tone, you may have to work on this if it doesn't come naturally to you but it is important as it helps to convince you, as much as her, that you are top dog! Just start with little things but would definitely second 'Perfect Manners', it is an excellent book full of non confrontational exercises to help you deal with issues.
 
If you can figure out why she behaves this way then it will help you to solve the problem. Is she territorial? Defensive about food? Expecting harsh treatment? How does she interact with other horses? Or is she just a very bold horse that has learned how to get what she wants?

I think you need to become more authoritative, which is very different to dominance. This might sound pernickety but I really think it's true. Rude, bargy youngsters are 'dominant', established confident herd members have authority.

When you ask her to back up, what do you do? Try squaring your shoulders, standing up straight, look straight at her, pointing at her chest and saying 'back'. If she doesn't respond then step into her space and squeeze and release on her headollar rope.

Similarly, when asking her to move over, try not to push her quarters - if she is feeling argumentative she'll lash out or shove back. Instead take hold of her head collar and turn her head towards you while pointing at her quarters and saying 'over'. If you move the shoulders one way the quarters will go the other.

Finally, my instructor taught me that if you need a horse to back off NOW then take a lead rope and 'spin' about half of its length like a windmill. Aim it at which ever bit of the horse you want to control (not to hit, but so the horse will get hit if they continue to come at you). It's quite an aggressive move, but better than yelling or smacking a horse that might come back at you.

Maybe you've heard all this before, and I definitely don't pretend to have the answer to your problems with this mare. But maybe some more ideas for the toolbox will help :)
 
Echo the others in keeping safe!! No don't go in the school, you need to keep as close to here as possible so she can't spin on you.

I would either put her in a bridle with flash strap so she can't bite or muzzle her

Put her in a small area like a stable or outside it. Stand in front but slightly to the side, poke her in the chest and say back! If you know she won't listen to this then be prepared!

For example I dealt with a small but bloshy cob who I knew would not back up so I had a hoof pick in my hand ready. Put pressure on her to move back, do nto remove the pressure until she moves back, otherwise you reward her for doing nothing or indeed if you stop when she pushes against you she thinks that is the correct answer.

If when you poke her (put pressure on) she ignores you or pushes against you, increase the pressure even using the hoof pick if necessary BUT!!! be sure to remove pressure and praise even half a step.


When you have to deal with her from the side remember the closer you are to her tummy the safer you are, yes she might 'just' be able to reach you but there will not be any power behind her legs if you are close.

If you can do it safely you need to do the same thing to get her to move over. While keeping safe DO NOT GIVE IN!!

Sounds like you could perhaps do with some help, is there are local trainer that could come and help you??
 
Wow, all these hugely helpful replies, thank you. I'm going to reply one by one to make sure I address all points:

madhossy said:
I'd muzzle her when leading her in and out of the stable and handling her if she were mine. And follow the Kelly Marks training where it was safe to do so. Or get help.

There used to be a vicious horse at a yard I worked at. She only attacked the female staff, so the husband of the YO did all the handling. He put a chifney on her to lead her in and out, held her head while we picked her feet out, groomed her, and held a leg up while we changed rugs because she kicked too.

The chifney stopped her trying it on with the chap as I know it really peed her [the horse] off that she couldn't kick or bite us. She respected the chap, even though he was the most mild mannered guy...
Click to expand...

When you have a headcollar on her, she is like a lamb. No joke. She responds to EVERYTHING you ask, never pulls or drags or hangs behind. She follows, at your shoulder, like a lamb. She also NEVER bites when you're actually leading her (or at least, she's never ever made any attempt to get me). Annoyingly, its just in the stable and the field where she is SO badly mannered.

Thank you. I definitely will try the Kelly Marks things. xxxx
 
I had a mare that was pure evil, people that never met the horse would think i EXAGGERATE, but honestley, you couldnt even walk past her box with her diving at you, she kicked, bit and her party peice was to smash you against walls.. leadin/riding was just as bad and she hated other horses too.

I NEVER beat her but she did get the same treatment back, I e qa smack on the nose! I will never forget the first time my farrier came to shoe her, he had his back agsinst the wall with bot feet up o her bum trying to push her away where she was tryin gto squash him against a wall..

oh then we have my friend that got trapped ni a stable with said horse LOL .. her oh was just about to go and get a ladder for her to climb out over a wall!

oh and the time the vet was leaning on her quarters whils chattnig away.. the YO walked past and said oh she is so nice when she is sedated.. the vet looked confused and said she wasnt, he moved very quickley!

with me she learnt her boundries, and i never got an injury from her or felt in danger, but with other people I couldnt trust her. I think the making of her and mine relashionship was I wasnt scared of her, but i liked her, spent time with her, and it paid off, underneath it all she had such a character.

the making of her evilness was humans.. she had been very badley treated in ireland.

so my advice.. spend time with said horse, alway leave a head collar on and clip a rope on no matter what your doing, even if its just to go and give a fuss. NEVER take a step back, if horse shows signs of aggression make your self big and go back at it.
Not all horses will respond to a smack, but if it is something that may work give it a go, but expect horse to come back at you and be ready to growl/make yourself big.
 
hch4971 said:
Firstly, always keep yourself safe and make sure you are wearing a hat and gloves when dealing with her. I wouldn't even try working in a school with her, I would start at close quarters so that she can't spin around on you. For backing out of your space, the easiest way I have found to teach them, is a finger in the shoulder, just on the bone. Start with a gentle prod and increase the pressure until she shows any sign of moving away from it, then immediately stop and praise her. You may have to put quite a bit of pressure on to start but she will quickly learn that if she moves away immediately then it doesn't get uncomfortable, I have never had one not respond to this (eventually in some cases!!) Make sure that when you speak to her you use a 'mean it' tone, you may have to work on this if it doesn't come naturally to you but it is important as it helps to convince you, as much as her, that you are top dog! Just start with little things but would definitely second 'Perfect Manners', it is an excellent book full of non confrontational exercises to help you deal with issues.
Click to expand...

She can spin at me in her box - they're all huge foaling boxes unfortunately! But you may be right about giving her even more space to do so - unless I have more space to get out the way when her feet come flying!!

Good thought about the poking! My worry is that she flys round to bite you, and as hard as I try I cannot just stand there and let her bite me, it hurts too much. I wonder whether, if I could get her to stride backwards (a la the Gillian Higgins stretches she is ok at), and respond to me asking for one pace at a time, in the school, then that might help?

I definitely need a 'mean it' tone. I can scream and shout when she does get me, but I'm no good before it gets to that point.

I have the Perfect Manners book and will be reading it in preparation for after Christmas!
 
Steorra said:
If you can figure out why she behaves this way then it will help you to solve the problem. Is she territorial? Defensive about food? Expecting harsh treatment? How does she interact with other horses? Or is she just a very bold horse that has learned how to get what she wants?

I think you need to become more authoritative, which is very different to dominance. This might sound pernickety but I really think it's true. Rude, bargy youngsters are 'dominant', established confident herd members have authority.

When you ask her to back up, what do you do? Try squaring your shoulders, standing up straight, look straight at her, pointing at her chest and saying 'back'. If she doesn't respond then step into her space and squeeze and release on her headollar rope.

Similarly, when asking her to move over, try not to push her quarters - if she is feeling argumentative she'll lash out or shove back. Instead take hold of her head collar and turn her head towards you while pointing at her quarters and saying 'over'. If you move the shoulders one way the quarters will go the other.

Finally, my instructor taught me that if you need a horse to back off NOW then take a lead rope and 'spin' about half of its length like a windmill. Aim it at which ever bit of the horse you want to control (not to hit, but so the horse will get hit if they continue to come at you). It's quite an aggressive move, but better than yelling or smacking a horse that might come back at you.

Maybe you've heard all this before, and I definitely don't pretend to have the answer to your problems with this mare. But maybe some more ideas for the toolbox will help :)
Click to expand...

As far as I know, shes never been mistreated. She came from a lovely lady who had bred her and was absolutely devastated when she sold her on - I just can't imagine she was mishandled. She IS dominant over food, but the only way I can describe is that she treats me like she treats my foal in the field - she ensures that Puzzle moves so she can go wherever she wants. If Puzzle refuses, she gets bitten, or kicked. The only difference is that Puzzle NEVER insists she moves, whereas obviously we do, which is probably why I get beaten alot more than my foal!!

I think you are right about the body language, and I will try that later. I almost need to pep talk myself before walking in to her box!!!!

Good advice about the windmill too. Thinking about taking a leadrope in with me so that I can have some more control if I need it.
 
soulfull said:
Echo the others in keeping safe!! No don't go in the school, you need to keep as close to here as possible so she can't spin on you.

I would either put her in a bridle with flash strap so she can't bite or muzzle her

Put her in a small area like a stable or outside it. Stand in front but slightly to the side, poke her in the chest and say back! If you know she won't listen to this then be prepared!

For example I dealt with a small but bloshy cob who I knew would not back up so I had a hoof pick in my hand ready. Put pressure on her to move back, do nto remove the pressure until she moves back, otherwise you reward her for doing nothing or indeed if you stop when she pushes against you she thinks that is the correct answer.

If when you poke her (put pressure on) she ignores you or pushes against you, increase the pressure even using the hoof pick if necessary BUT!!! be sure to remove pressure and praise even half a step.

When you have to deal with her from the side remember the closer you are to her tummy the safer you are, yes she might 'just' be able to reach you but there will not be any power behind her legs if you are close.

If you can do it safely you need to do the same thing to get her to move over. While keeping safe DO NOT GIVE IN!!

Sounds like you could perhaps do with some help, is there are local trainer that could come and help you??
Click to expand...

As above about the school.

Good point about increasing pressure BUT then releasing for even a half movement. She is better with 'over' than she is with 'back' (she did move over, but only after booting me! my fault for standing behind her......!)

Not sure about the local trainer. Also slightly difficult as shes not, financially and ownership wise, my horse. Long story, I do all the caring but the owner appears occasionally. Shes already extremely nervous and doesnt want a trainer dealing with a horse as then she'll think its dangerous....also, bizarrely, owner is EXTREMELY nervous around her, and Dotty behaves much more than she does with me! It makes me think that it really is about her wanting to be 'leader'. She's quite happy with the owner, because its obviously that Dotty is still the leader, and G just moves around her!
 
jhoward said:
I had a mare that was pure evil, people that never met the horse would think i EXAGGERATE, but honestley, you couldnt even walk past her box with her diving at you, she kicked, bit and her party peice was to smash you against walls.. leadin/riding was just as bad and she hated other horses too.

I NEVER beat her but she did get the same treatment back, I e qa smack on the nose! I will never forget the first time my farrier came to shoe her, he had his back agsinst the wall with bot feet up o her bum trying to push her away where she was tryin gto squash him against a wall..

oh then we have my friend that got trapped ni a stable with said horse LOL .. her oh was just about to go and get a ladder for her to climb out over a wall!

oh and the time the vet was leaning on her quarters whils chattnig away.. the YO walked past and said oh she is so nice when she is sedated.. the vet looked confused and said she wasnt, he moved very quickley!

with me she learnt her boundries, and i never got an injury from her or felt in danger, but with other people I couldnt trust her. I think the making of her and mine relashionship was I wasnt scared of her, but i liked her, spent time with her, and it paid off, underneath it all she had such a character.

the making of her evilness was humans.. she had been very badley treated in ireland.

so my advice.. spend time with said horse, alway leave a head collar on and clip a rope on no matter what your doing, even if its just to go and give a fuss. NEVER take a step back, if horse shows signs of aggression make your self big and go back at it.
Not all horses will respond to a smack, but if it is something that may work give it a go, but expect horse to come back at you and be ready to growl/make yourself big.
Click to expand...

I think the thing that I find so upsetting is, after she had her accident (reared up and over, smashed her head up, found ks and had the op) I spent lots of time with her in the field and actually, she was really damn sweet. But then she was in a field on her own (well, separated from our gelding by leccy tape). I wonder whether its worse her being with my foal, but then, in her box she is obv on her own, so that cant be the reason.

I love her so much, I just want to make her as happy as I possibly can. I'm desperate to fix it but I'm getting really scared to be around her.
 
Be careful with the leadrope and spinning it, an idiot trimmer nearly blinded my pony doing this to him when she misjudged her 'swing'! If food is a problem then you could start with making sure you never feed her until she has waited for you to put the bucket where you want it, even if you need to use a headcollar and rope to make sure that happens, that could actually be your starting point if feeding is an issue. I would also avoid doing anything with her in the stable whilst she is eating (if you do this), we have a couple who don't like being touched whilst they are eating, and whilst I agree that you SHOULD be able to do what you want with them I know I wouldn't like it so I let them eat in peace, it just isn't something I have ever done (but OH does)
 
hch4971 said:
Be careful with the leadrope and spinning it, an idiot trimmer nearly blinded my pony doing this to him when she misjudged her 'swing'! If food is a problem then you could start with making sure you never feed her until she has waited for you to put the bucket where you want it, even if you need to use a headcollar and rope to make sure that happens, that could actually be your starting point if feeding is an issue. I would also avoid doing anything with her in the stable whilst she is eating (if you do this), we have a couple who don't like being touched whilst they are eating, and whilst I agree that you SHOULD be able to do what you want with them I know I wouldn't like it so I let them eat in peace, it just isn't something I have ever done (but OH does)
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We keep out of her way when she has her bucket feed, but she needs mucking out in the morning and shes even worse if she's hungry!! Shes a TBx, crossed with something that ate like, well, a horse! Greedy little madam.

Will be careful with the rope, definitely. xxxx
 
flamehead said:
But if I ask her, she bites!!!!
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Is it just yourself she bites or is she a general biter? Because if thats her general attitude then we need to tackle that aspect first and then move on. I assume teeth etc been checked? I find to stop biting is to push the head sharply away and immediately bring it back into you to fuss between the ears - its a repetitive process but it does work.
 
She pulls faces at everyone, so far shes only actually got my OH once but has got me 3 or 4 times - however, she pulls a face and launches to bite every couple of seconds. But I spend alot more time with her than anyone else so I'm not sure whether it is any different because its my OH or whether its just law of averages.

Teeth regularly checked by a lovely EDT who knows her stuff (hi VictoriaEDT!), back regularly checked also, no problems in either.
 
flamehead said:
When you have a headcollar on her, she is like a lamb. No joke. She responds to EVERYTHING you ask, never pulls or drags or hangs behind. She follows, at your shoulder, like a lamb. She also NEVER bites when you're actually leading her (or at least, she's never ever made any attempt to get me). Annoyingly, its just in the stable and the field where she is SO badly mannered.
Click to expand...

Sounds like my gelding. The sweetest, most cuddly horse with a head collar on. a right git when loose. He isnt as bad as he used to be as we only have odd bad days, but I found keeping him busy (lots of riding) and leave him well alone when in his space. Aslong as he steps back when I bring food in, I then praise and allow him to get in peace.
 
If you believe in yourself, she will respond. It's all about your attitude towards yourself - you need to believe you're important, and number one. How dare she act in this way? Believe that, and respond as your instincts tell you to do. In a herd, it is possible to tell who is who just by their demeanor, and this is what she understands. The stuff in the books is about exercises to help this develop between the two of you, but if you don't believe in yourself, you'll never get there.

With my lot, they know I'll be livid if they try anything, and discipline is meted out on a horse type basis - I will go for them, but I pull what I do so there's no real harm, just a sting, be it hand or leadrope across rump or shoulder. If they bite, they get a sharp tap on the nose. OH's pony, who was a right little git when we got her (bit, kicked etc), won't even dare try it on with me now, though she'll have a go at him occasionally. She knows there'll be consequences with me - not enough to scare her, but enough to make her think twice.
 
Being scared of her is i would say is giving you the most problems, any horse.. the moment your scared your always going to be acting in a defensive manner!

you have got to get some balls.. this is your horse you will deal with her! leave a head collar on in her box and the moment you approach just take hold of it, if shes trying to bite sharpley poke her in the side of the mouth.. just above the corner.. so as se comes around to bite you tell her to sod off first.

all the problems you mention I think you are able to deal with,. my mare had huge food aggression.. i just cant explaine how nasty she was.. well apart from what ive said she managed to loosen the bolts on monarch stable where she double barreled it so much..

but again.. you have got to stop being scared. even a tiny bit.. and she has you!
 
Going at 5. Will pysche myself up first.

I'm just sick of being scared. When she booted me the other day I just sat outside her box and cried, and cried, and cried. It makes it worse that shes not technically mine as I feel so bitter that I look after a horse when I shouldn't have to.

xxxxx
 
This is a bit out of the box, but I worked with a stallio9n like this and found that his biggest problem was that he was incredibly ticklish. He HATED to be touched and met it with extreme aggression.

The simplest thing in the world worked. I gave him a long length of blue pipe to chew.. literally shoved it in his mouth the first time he launched at me, and ever after that he would chew at his pipe, use all his aggression on it and I could safely groom, do feet, tack up etc.

Might be worth a try.
 
hch4971 said:
'Perfect Manners', it is an excellent book full of non confrontational exercises to help you deal with issues.
Click to expand...
Non-confrontational is what you want. Don't try and out dominate a very dominant horse - that way lies danger and disaster.

Confident authority, not aggression, is the key.
 
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