How to care for a litter of puppies?

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Patterdale

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For those who didnt see the original thread, my 7 Patterdale puppies are now 4 weeks old :) and beautiful!
I was in the pet shop yesterday and got talking to the lady about them. She was asking if I'm finding it hard work and I said 'no not really.' She asked and when I described my routine she seemed shocked at how I'm caring for them which has got me wondering - am I wrong?? I don't know anyone else who breeds dogs so don't know how others do it, I've just tried to use common sense.

For the first 3 weeks they lived in the horse trailer in some hay. I left the jockey door open during the day after the first week and shut it at night with the bitch inside. After 3 weeks I moved them into a round feeder in an empty cattle shed so the bitch can come and go as she pleases 24/7 (our dogs live outside free-range). At 3 weeks I put a bowl of puppy food in the feeder and top it up when it gets empty.
So aside from doing a head count twice a day when I'm passing and worming them, I don't do anything.

I was told I should be giving bread and milk or weetabix and milk 4 times a day and giving them a new bed each day, and that they should be totally shut away 'so the other dogs don't get them' for the first few weeks at least, and that I should shut the bitch in with them or she won't feed them. I was told I should also give them set meal times and throw away any uneaten food after 10 mins or so, and also that they shouldn't be outside because of infection risk. This seems wasteful with the food and needlessly time consuming with everything else. But am I just being cavalier about it?

They look v healthy so I'm not worried as such it just got me wondering about how other people raise a litter of puppies? And are different breeds different?

Thank you!
 
You are rearing your pups like a lot of farm dogs are reared, so I am not about to say you are wrong. However, most breeders would do things differently . At 4 weeks my pups would be on 3 or 4 feeds a day, and yes any uneaten food would be taken away. However bread and milk is the last thing they should be having, you are right to give them puppy food.They would be loose with me in the house a lot, getting used to various household noises, tv, hoover, washing machine etc. They would have had their nails clipped a couple of times to stop them scratching their mum when feeding. I would be happy to take them outside and would do this a lot, not a problem with my own dogs being about but wouldn't allow any other dogs on the premises. And lastly, I would be wasting hours playing with them, puppies are the biggest time wasters ever, so yes I do find having a litter very hard work and time consuming, but love it. :)
 
I spend a lot of time with my puppies but this is mostly because I enjoy it. I give each puppy it's own food bowl as this reduces the risk of food aggression as adult dogs and I would remove uneaten food but then my lot never leave food anyway. I play with and handle the pups a lot but this all depends on the bitch being happy with your presence I also use a sounds tape to familiarise the pips with day yo day sounds such as vacuum cleaners, police sirens, children crying etc. it all depends on the environment the pups will be going to. If they are all going to be outside working dogs then you won't need to do a lot more, but if they are going to b house pets then I suggest you need to start to prepare them for such an environment.
The blue cross used to produce a really good early socialisation guide so it may be worth checking their website.
Good luck and enjoy the pups, it doesn't last long
 
I would just worry they won't be very well socialised, like MM says they won't have been in a house, heard any sudden noises, met different people, seen life at all. When we got out pup although she lived outside they had a lot of time spent with them and were well handled. They had been in a play pen on the lawn a lot so had met/seen cyclists, chickens, cars and so on.
 
Oh I do play with them lots!! But I don't consider that 'work' ;) :D

Reading back my OP looks like I just abandon the poor things, I don't! There's usually someone in there having a scive, covered in puppies ;) it's just as far as the actual 'work' goes.....I don't feel like I do much.

Out if interest, why should you take away uneaten food rather than feed adlib? And what puppy food do you feed? They're having John Burns as they do a small bite one but the others have CSJ That'll Do!
I fed the sheepdog pups weetabix and milk as that's what I was recommended by someone I thought knew their stuff, but after realising it was wrong changed it. They seemed ok though.
 
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It sounds to me as if you are doing everything right (except the bit about listening to fools!) . The only thing I would worry about is temperature. Puppies need to be kept warm which is why they have bare bellies to absorb heat from their siblings and mother. If they can't do that, they can become chilled which I suspect is the root of many evils.

The farmer I spent my student days with was a hunt terrierman and his terriers always whelped deep inside a stack of small hay bales in the barn. We never even saw them until they followed the bitch out! I think that would be the ideal set up. My own dogs were not warm enough in purpose built whelping boxes barely large enough for the bitch to stretch out in at full length but lined on all six sides with 50mm of polystyrene sandwiched between marine ply with a double flap door. I solved that problem by cutting a hole in the roof and suspending a heat lamp outside (but shining through the hole) and monitoring the temperature carefully. Other than providing the ideal environmental conditions, I'd leave strictly alone until at least 14 days and by four weeks I still wouldn't know numbers or sexes! I don't believe in meddling.

Young pups can eat meat at a surprisingly young age. They will chew away at a solid chunk or lap up raw minced meat. I feed nothing else. I gave up feeding anything at all liquid as pups will get their noses in it and can inhale fluids which cannot be a good thing. The bitch will clear up any food left over. I always try to provide food 24/7 when they are a bit older but probably remove the bitch for a few hours to give her peace, or at least provide some means of escape.

Yes, breeds are different. Many of the pet/show breeds are fussed over and pampered and only survive because of that. Yours, as mine, are working dogs and tough. Responsible breeders want them to stay that way. So leave the cotton wool to others. You know all this anyway and you know by listening to the sounds of a litter whether they need attention without prodding and poking them every five minutes!

Just a few thoughts from an extremist who hates what they are doing to working breeds. Dons asbestos suit and retires....

Edited to say that socialisation in dogs mostly takes place between five and eight weeks, so any interfering before that is just an excuse. No harm in it and good fun, but not necessary.
 
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All three of my dogs have come from environments where they have lived outside as puppies, one of which had had very little handling. They have all adjusted just fine to everyday life, although the unhandled one is and I dare say always will be, quite timid in new situations.
 
As others, if they are going into pet homes I would want them used to household noises at some stage. The rest does sound a bit OTT.

You said yourself you wanted them to go to pet homes :)

My working dog was raised in a house with a young baby, other animals around etc, but it hasn't impacted on his ability to work.
 
CaveCanem said:
As others, if they are going into pet homes I would want them used to household noises at some stage. The rest does sound a bit OTT.

You said yourself you wanted them to go to pet homes :)

My working dog was raised in a house with a young baby, other animals around etc, but it hasn't impacted on his ability to work.
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Agree with this.
Spacing feeds allows intake to be monitored and also gives the pups motivation.
I would be very concerned about pups destined for pet homes not being given the opportunity to feel different surfaces nor having clear demarcation between bed, food & poo areas. IME shed reared puppies ( which your's are for want of a better term) take more time to housetrain than those given every chance to move away from bed to empty themselves.
I do hope you have a radio playing? A household sounds recording would be even better.
 
Sounds like yours are been reared as outdoors farm dogs not as pups destined for the indoors pet market tbh. ..to make life easier and less scary for them socialisation to normal indoor noises.,sights, surfaces and sounds from around 4 to 5 weeks would be a good idea. ..so a playpen in the house or some thing along those lines might be a good idea.
also basic house training is much essier of the pups begin to learn young to differences between sleeping wating playing and pooping spots.


from 4 weeks or so most litters should be starting on solids 3 to 4 times a day. .puppy foods softened is the way to go rather than the old fashioned milk and weetabix as pups can struggle with digesting the latter.

being reared away from people can have them missing out on normal human interactions and in some cases outdoor pups can be that bit more timid and wary of new experiences within a household...like the washing machine going off..struggling and hating walking on lino or wood floors etc..finding children screaming and playing a bit much..whereas if the are exposed and socialised to all of theses experiences young most are completely unfazed.....
 
My singleton pup went to his new home last Friday. He was whelped in the kitchen and lived there in his basket, before went made a run out of shavings bales so mum could jump in and out and he could stay out when we were not there. By the time he went to his new home he was sleeping alone in a cage and was more or less house trained.

He was used to washing machine, cars, horses, hoovers and was a real cracker. I cried when he went!!!
 
My best friend breeds labs and by 4 weeks they would be paper trained and used to lots of household noises. They have lots of toys for stimulation and would be going out in the garden regularly and mixing with cats and her other dogs. She has several breeding bitches and all puppies are born and reared in the house. They are all extremely well adjusted and transition to a new home easily because of the effort she puts in. I have a patterdale and knowing they can be fiesty and a bit aggro having lots of socialisation at a young age would be important to me.
 
I think it is like breeding anything else - from horses to humans! The more effort and inconvenience when they are young the better they are set up for the future.
 
I have never bred from my dogs but both springers I now have were raised the same as your pups Patterdale, outside with little interference and not really 'handled' until they were almost ready to wean and rehome. They are both loving and settled dogs with no issues at all so can't really see any harm in what you are doing. Saying that a friend of mine has just had a litter of 9 pups and they have been kept in the house with loads of interaction from people, children and my dogs as well as their mum from the day they were born and again they well socialised, happy puppies so I am sure there are many right ways of doing it.
 
Whilst it isn't the way I would do it my dog was raised in a shed, quite literally. He settled into being a pet very easily when he came home at 6 weeks
 
Yes they do go to puppy walkers at 6-7 weeks but the socialisation starts before then. When they place their brood bitches with people they ask that puppies are born " Ideally in your home, so that the puppies can be well socialised". (That is the Guide Dogs for the Blind, no experience of Seeing Eye Dogs.)
 
MurphysMinder said:
Yes they do go to puppy walkers at 6-7 weeks but the socialisation starts before then. When they place their brood bitches with people they ask that puppies are born " Ideally in your home, so that the puppies can be well socialised". (That is the Guide Dogs for the Blind, no experience of Seeing Eye Dogs.)
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Just found this site. Can't find any information on homing a brood bitch but they do seem to breed an awful lot of puppies "in house" and stress "At our centre we aim to create a calm and ordered environment for all who visit and work here - and especially for our dogs. We hope you will do all you can to help us achieve this", so presumably no washing machines or screaming kids?

http://www.guidedogs.org.uk/aboutus/national-breeding-centre/#.UlkBcNKTiSo
 
Guide dog pups live with the brood bitch holder til 6 weeks before going to the puppy walker. They see all normal household things from day one.
 
Dry Rot said:
Just found this site. Can't find any information on homing a brood bitch but they do seem to breed an awful lot of puppies "in house" and stress "At our centre we aim to create a calm and ordered environment for all who visit and work here - and especially for our dogs. We hope you will do all you can to help us achieve this", so presumably no washing machines or screaming kids?

http://www.guidedogs.org.uk/aboutus/national-breeding-centre/#.UlkBcNKTiSo
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it states children must be supervised.

and I love the idea that a washing machine is not calm and orderly.

my understanding is that the pups are introduced to as many things as possible that they would encounter in a normal household but in a calm manner. a friend of mine puppy walked for GD and when pup arrived she was cool calm and collected and nothing in the house phased her as she had seen it all before.

I have a few friends that breed dogs (grump) outside but all of the litters will spend time in the house everyday from 10-14 days old as a whole litter and individually too so that if they go on to live inside the house with new owners they cope better with the move. the only exception to that is one friend who breeds a litter of cheasapeake bay retrievers every 3rd year (so he can replace his own working dogs) they do not ever come in the house and he only homes them to working homes where they will be kept outdoors as he does not believe his lines make good house dogs
 
Thanks for all the replies :)

Just to reiterate - I am not just ignoring them! It's just that, as work goes, checking they're all present and topping the food and water up is all I do.
They do get played with lots now, and as far as socialisation goes no they won't know about washing machines but they're totally fine with tractors, cars, loud people coming and going and most animals. They also, importantly know how to behave with other dogs, having grown up in a pack mentality.

I totally get what people are saying about them being in a house to be socialised, and while its probably another good way of doing it, I don't feel that my way is a bad way.
Before I banned dogs from the house I had 2 collies and one patt (the mother) who had been reared outside and made the transition to house dog very smoothly at 7 weeks, so while some would probably like dogs reared in the house I don't think it makes a huge amount of difference, particularly if they are very good around people and general farm noises.

I don't know how you would paper train puppies by 4 weeks though!??? Or why, tbh?
Ididnt interfere with mine much at all apart from worming for the first almost 3 weeks. I think it would have stressed the bitch.

She doesn't sleep with them any more though, and does t want to, so I'd hate to think she was ever shut in with them and couldn't get away.

So I think there are many different 'right' ways :)
(But I still prefer mine as I think it's more natural :))
 
twiggy2 said:
I have a few friends that breed dogs (grump) outside but all of the litters will spend time in the house everyday from 10-14 days old as a whole litter and individually too
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See I just wouldn't dream of doing this. The bitch had them all in a nice nest and was understandably protective over them. I wouldn't have even contemplated stressing her out by taking them all into the house, or worse, individually.
 
Elliesmemory1 said:
Guide dog pups live with the brood bitch holder til 6 weeks before going to the puppy walker. They see all normal household things from day one.
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I don't think you can have looked at the link I quoted:

http://www.guidedogs.org.uk/aboutus/.../#.UlkBcNKTiSo

Quote: Our new National Breeding Centre will allow us to increase our capacity to breed puppies from 1,100 to 1,500 a year. In addition it provides modern facilities that will enhance dog and staff welfare and provide much better facilities for our volunteers. The new centre also allows us to cater for large groups of visitors and show them where life begins for a guide dog and how these life changing animals are bred.

Can't see what you are quoting nor any reference to brood bitch holders. Can you supply a link or reference please as this intrigues me?

Incidentally, my source on socialisation is Scott & Fuller, "Dog Behaviour - the Genetic Basis". You'll find "socialization" in the index.

Patterdale, you'll do just fine!:)
 
Yours are going to be farm dogs that you then want to be 'pets' without any acclimitisation. Farm machinery is different to a tv a couple of inches away. Dont' be surprised if they become difficult to home without any formal socialisation to become pets.
 
SusieT said:
Yours are going to be farm dogs that you then want to be 'pets' without any acclimitisation. Farm machinery is different to a tv a couple of inches away. Dont' be surprised if they become difficult to home without any formal socialisation to become pets.
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Like I say - based on my own experience (and that of friends) I don't think most pups struggle going to live in a house at 7 weeks old. Perhaps 7 MONTHS would be a problem, or perhaps I'd have a problem if they weren't used to people at all, but they are.
They're very friendly, sociable happy little pups who haven't been fazed by any new sights or sounds so far, so hopefully a TV if and when they do meet one shouldn't cause them to combust :)

I think if you are not used to keeping dogs in this way you may feel that it's poles apart from anything else, but it's really not. They are used to being handled by lots of different people and good with/respectful of other dogs. They see 'new' things all the time, and although they may not have sat next to a washing machine the new things that they HAVE seen have been no problem whatsoever.

Like I've said - there are many 'right' ways of doing something. But to suggest that my pups will be no good for pet homes because they were born outside is a little unfair IMO.
 
Patterdale, every single puppy I've ever bought in my life was born outside on a farm. There were times in my life that our dogs lived free-range in our houses but I haven't had dogs living inside my houses for about 15 years now, although they do have beds in a large room just off our kitchen (with a 'fenced' half stable door) so I see and chat to them if I'm in the kitchen and they're in the dog room. When I bought all of my farm-raised puppies who had full access to my houses they acclimatised with absolutely no problems at all. All of them were pretty much housetrained as they knew not to soil their straw beds at their birth farms and instead go on the grassy area outside the stable/barn etc.

My own litters are born in the house and after a few days moved back out to a puppy pen area in the dog room next to my kitchen. The pen is not high so the mother can jump in and out as she pleases. The dog room has a dog flap and my dogs have 24/7 access to outside and they're free to go where they choose on the farm through the day. All my other dogs interact initially with the puppies through the pen and then once the puppies are mobile enough they can run around in the dog room and outside with the big dogs. My collie pups left here at around 6/7 weeks and all (apart from the one we kept) live in houses as pet dogs. They were all pretty much house trained with just the very odd accident apparently. The pup we kept never had any mishaps in the dog room as she knew how to get out the dog flap (as did the others prior to them leaving for their homes).

I did used to bring the puppies in for a little while in the evenings once they were playing and rolling around, but only for about an hour a night. They also were out on the farm for hours every day so used to tractors and machinery etc. I love having puppies around and I also don't see it as work, it's fun to me.

My puppies are fed 5 or 6 times daily and yes I do take the bowls away when they're done but only because there was little left and I washed out the bowls, and had I left them in there the puppies would have been covered in gooey puppy food. I can't see any problem with leaving the bowls in there though; it's pretty easy to spot a puppy who isn't doing as well as the others and you just make sure you get it eating well to pick up the weight again.

Your pups will be just fine I'm sure :smile3:
 
OT but a lot of dogs destined to be guide dogs are bred from generations of dogs with very, very calm, non-reactive characters, so genetics as well as socialisation comes into play. Plus the training they receive is very intensive - one mistake can mean big trouble for the handler so it has to be very clear.
All part of a combination!
 
Dry Rot said:
I don't think you can have looked at the link I quoted:

http://www.guidedogs.org.uk/aboutus/.../#.UlkBcNKTiSo

Quote: Our new National Breeding Centre will allow us to increase our capacity to breed puppies from 1,100 to 1,500 a year. In addition it provides modern facilities that will enhance dog and staff welfare and provide much better facilities for our volunteers. The new centre also allows us to cater for large groups of visitors and show them where life begins for a guide dog and how these life changing animals are bred.

Can't see what you are quoting nor any reference to brood bitch holders. Can you supply a link or reference please as this intrigues me?

Incidentally, my source on socialisation is Scott & Fuller, "Dog Behaviour - the Genetic Basis". You'll find "socialization" in the index.

Patterdale, you'll do just fine!:)
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I didnt look at the link, I know about guide dogs because I work there! Some pups are born at the centre but most are born in the brood bitch holders home. the pups are used to every day sights and sounds from day one
 
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