How to correct bad behaviour?

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xxcxx

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I have a 3 year old who is a very laid bad cob.Have started some groundwork with him and just wondering,what is the best way to correct bad behaviour?

Should i just stop and try again,give a tap and make him do what i am asking etc?

For instance he has started to try and bite me when i am leading him.Should i give him a tap with crop,tug his rope or stand,ignoring him then ask for walk again when he stands nice or something else?

Also he wont go into trot sometimes,what should i do then?

Also if he is spooking at something,should i let him stand and see it or just make him walk on?

I would like him to trust me but dont want him walking all over me by being too kind either so really not sure on how i should be
 
For general correction, you can move the horse faster - i.e. make it work. For instance in a small circle around you just once or twice. Or back the horse or ask for a similarly challenging movement that they cannot simply ignore. Then ask again. Always reward good behaviour as well. This can be a treat or just leaving the horse in peace for a second (which is why ignoring and waiting is not a reprimand). Exact response will vary with the behaviour being shown though - and what you want the result to be. If he bites when leading, back him up. Teach him to back away from your body, a tap on the chest (not hard - you can use your hand or a schooling whip but don't hit) and reward when he does it. Keep him out of your space after. Teach him to stand a distance away. If he won't trot, put a bag on the end of your stick. But first try carrying a schooling whip and smacking the ground. Use proactive, forward body language. Don't just stand there. Take some meaningful steps towards his hind end, click and sweep the whip behind him. Smack the ground if he ignores. Add the bag if he's not taking you seriously. If he spooks, don't make a big deal - just walk him by.
 
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What you describe is not really bad behaviour, just youngster behaviour - especially boys.

Is he gelded?

Is he trying to bite you ie comes at you with ears back or nip you? There is a difference, aggression. If he's really coming at you then I would say to get some professional help as it suggests that he really doesn't appreciate your leadership skills. If it's just a nip and not really aggressive then you can alleviate this as the above poster has suggested and you should also be more aware of where you are leading from, if you are at his shoulder facing forwards with your hand on the rope just under his chin and you are moving him well forwards he will find it difficult to get in a position where he can nip (although I realise they can very quickly change their position)

When does he not trot? Is this ridden, on the lunge? In hand ?
 
Thanks.Will work on that.Yeah he is gelded.It isnt aggressive,just nipping.The not trotting is on the lunge and at times when leading.He hasnt been in regular work but just thought i would get advice so he doesnt get confused.
 
Instantly, consistently, proportionately, fairly, unemotionally, forgivingly, and with a good understanding of what caused the bad behaviour in the first place.

"leadership skills" What are they if not the confident application of the above principles?
 
fburton said:
Instantly, consistently, proportionately, fairly, unemotionally, forgivingly, and with a good understanding of what caused the bad behaviour in the first place.

"leadership skills" What are they if not the confident application of the above principles?
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EXCELLENT post ^^^^ Learning how to apply the above priciples is what makes a trainer.
 
xxcxx said:
I have a 3 year old who is a very laid bad cob.Have started some groundwork with him and just wondering,what is the best way to correct bad behaviour?

Should i just stop and try again,give a tap and make him do what i am asking etc?

For instance he has started to try and bite me when i am leading him.Should i give him a tap with crop,tug his rope or stand,ignoring him then ask for walk again when he stands nice or something else?

Also he wont go into trot sometimes,what should i do then?

Also if he is spooking at something,should i let him stand and see it or just make him walk on?

I would like him to trust me but dont want him walking all over me by being too kind either so really not sure on how i should be
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I've heard that if they try and bite you, you can move your elbow up towards them and give them a sharp prod. Its meant to be effective as they have no idea this is actually coming from you. I've never had any of mine do that though so i'm probably not much help on this.
 
Just to put a different angle on the nipping - my young boy will try and nip when he is upset/confused/anxious, but under normal circumstances (the majority of the time) he keeps his mouth to himself perfectly. If he starts nipping during training I know it is a signal to me to look at what I'm doing and be sure I am not giving confusing signals, then to looks at what I am asking him and making sure he actually understands, and then to look at the environment and make sure there is not something else going on that is stressing him out. It can be a very valuable tool to have a pony who very clearly tells you when they need help if you can use it to your advantage.
 
hi, are you feeding titbits by hand? fairly fatal, that one, I always give treats at the end of a session from a bucket, or during sometimes, If a horse nips to the point of biting I give it a gentle slap on the side of the nose, near the mouth, so it is quite clear about which part of its anatomy has done the foul deed, but this is very common behaviour in babies.

you could try having an helper to get him moving, you are the boss and give the orders, when you say walk on, the helper touches him with a lunge whip, just enough to encourage him to walk forwards, and keep repeating, you can carry a long schooling whip to touch him yourself when on your own, this is the first lesson In breaking, to learn to walk forwards in hand happily, and try the same on the lunge, but he is so young he is not naughty, he just doesn't understand yet, when he really won`t move try moving him to one side or the other, so he gets to move his feet.

when he gets going, as he surely will, you could try taking him for walks somewhere safe to start, and later on the road, this helps with the lunging and can start to get him fitter, four times a week would be good, and in a few months when you look back you`ll see just how far you have come.

if you watch herds of horses running together they often snake their necks round and bite the horse at the side, he could see you in the same way, they also bump into each other, its up to you to use your brains to show him you are not another horse, teach him to behave differently when he is with you, almost dominate by using consistency and respect, when he`s good give him a big hug.
 
It definately isnt pain,aggression or that he is confused as he does it just when leading and even when i am stood in the field spending time with him at times and cuddling etc his expression doesnt change and after trying,he will just go back to what he is doing so wont even stop and try to nip.I have tried putting my hand up when he goes to nip so he bangs into that
 
as far as the nipping goes you just need to be very black and white and sharp about it.

if you feel/see him coming get your elbow up and give him a swift crack under the jaw, if you are stood next to him then kick him(not full force but sharply) in the cannon bone or pinch and twist his skin hard-he needs to know that its not a game,not to be tolerated and you will retaliate just how a horse would-swiftly and firmly!

my 3yo is mouthy, i wouldnt say nippy as mostly he is just testing the water and sort of puts his mouth on you in a *do i dont i* sort of way and as he is entire he is more prone to it anyway, he is always lead in a lunge line and if he even so much as puts his lips on us when leading he gets a really hard full force belt in the chest with the end of the lunge line and made to back up 4/5 steps quickly-hes not to come in to MY space and certainly not to have a taste of my sleeve!

trotting-needs to learn it on the lunge where you can touch him with the whip to confirm the forwards, and he should start to learn the verbal command which you can then use in hand but if he wont go, carry a long whip so you can touch him at the girth.

spooking, it really depends.........bit looky and snorty i try and keep them marching, instill that they are to trust you. Genuine heart pounding white eyed fear-let them look a while then walk on when calmer.
 
I used to give treats when working him as a reward (he is only worked every few weeks) but stopped about a year ago to try stop the nipping.He does always walk on it's just the trotting at times.In the school,he will always happily trot when going towards the top of the school (where the door is) but going down and in lunge is when he wont at times.On walks he will trot when away from the yard but as soon as he gets to the yard he will be hard to get into trot and also start to walk so slow and lazy.When lunging if i give him a tap behind with the lunge whip,he will trot (sometimes it takes a few steps) but just feel bad after it and wasnt sure if that is a good way or not.I did used to have someone with me that would hit the ground with the whip and that would work but wasnt sure if he would just stop listening when that person isnt around.
 
Yup elbow in the mush. Don't use your hands to reprimand him he must associate nice things from your hands. Constant cuddling and patting is not good, he will be more relaxed and respectful if you just stand near him, a couple of feet away. Talk to him conversationally, tell him about your day , tell him a joke or some poetry so he can use your voice as a soothing cue in the future. Silence is ok too, Look around as well so he knows you are watching out for him. Keep your feet still so he doesn't fidget be calm and deliberate with your body. There's a great book by Richard Maxwell, 'Unlock your horses talent in 20 minutes a day'. There are many but this one did it for me. No treats if you can help it, stopping school is reward enough. Excellent advice on leadership on the previous page. It's never the horse that's behaving badly, he's just getting the wrong message. Be kind be assertive, be happy.
 
sounds like you are doing the right thing but doubting yourself, a horse is a creature of habit, try to think that when he gets over the hump of learning he will get the habit of obedience then you can use his habit to make things easy for both of you.

if he walks slow remember he is not fit at all, and baby concentration can be limited, but if he hangs towards the school door be ready to make him go on before he has time to even think about slowing.
 
I only cuddle and clap him etc when in the field because i usually just go and spend time in the field with him and he only comes out to be groomed,walked out the yard or worked every so often.Will be in more regular work around 4 (he is 3 and 5 months the now) Yeah i will look into a few books etc Cant be giving him the wrong message when im just stood there but could be because i used to give him a few carrots as a reward,dont remember if he started after or before that.Thanks,just wouldnt want to be too soft or too hard on him and have him confused with the correction i give him.He doesnt take much work tbh so laid back and good with pressure when in the school working.He has been lunged a few times,in walk and only a circle or 2 in each rein and he was perfect first time.He goes out and stays out and comes in and stands as soon as i ask.Great to be tacked up (no bridle yet) Been sat on once and he was no bother so think he will end up a great horse with the right correction.
 
My guy was very mouthy as a youngster and went through a hideous nipping phase - he is still playful as a 7yo and very occasionally will have a nip at your hand when you are leading him. Clinton Anderson has some great advice on this which really helped me - if he goes to nip your hand stick your elbow out so that he bumps his face on it. It doesn't hurt but gives him a shock and he will associate it with the act of nipping rather than if you hit him, which can lead to them being headshy. With an older horse turning your wrist out so that their muzzle bumps your wrist is usually enough.
You have to persevere - and I would NEVER give any youngster titbits from my hand (and don't let anyone else do it either) as it encourages them to bite. If he must have a treat at the end of a training session (and I'd rather praise or give them a scratch/rub) put it in a bucket or give him a lickit or forage block.
It helps to do your groundwork in a school or lunge pen to start with so that you have got a good surface and a place where you can insist that the horse focuses on you. The other important point is to keep the sessions brief - no more than 10-15 mins.
 
Giving treats "at the end of a training session" totally defeats the point of treats. Better not give them at all.

I give treats to every horse I work with - it's a lot more effective (according to research - not just personal experience) than any other method of praise for training. None of them nip. Treats given as a REWARD and not simply for the sake of it, should not cause nipping. If it does, it's because your timing is terrible.

Timing is crucial to proper training and rewarding with treats cannot be done half an hour after the good behaviour was produced. That's to completely misunderstand how animals learn. As has been mentioned, if you don't want to use treats, give the horse a 'break' as a reward instead (but it will take a little longer for them to learn).

Youngsters are often mouthy - if it has turned into nipping, you are not being clear about the fact you aren't happy about it. After a year of no treats, you being in the field is not a salient cue and the horse is not nipping because of that. Something else about nipping is motivating it - perhaps examine what you do after you get nipped that would encourage it (do you stop 'cuddling' for a second? 'Cuddling' is probably quite annoying...). Or it could be a youngster with an itchy mouth simply taking pleasure from general nipping. For the horse to still be hung up on the treats from a year ago, it would be like a person holding out hope to win the lottery after playing 1000 times - except the 'lottery' is only worth £1, which is just crazy!
 
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I think it is just a playful thing with him.He is the same when im leading him and my sister is leading my other horse,he will try to nip my other horse on the bum.He is just trying to play.I have tried putting my hand or elbow up.Id ssay he has definately got better than he was a few months ago.Groundwork with him is always in a school and if i lunge it will be walking a circle once on each rein or i will work on him moving away from pressure or walk and trot him round the school so it is never long.When i have given him treats it will be good timing i would say.If i ask for stand,when he stands,i give a treat.If i ask him to move away from my pressure as soon as he takes a step,i treat.I have stopped because of the nipping but do think treats is a good way as long as he learns he doesnt bug me for them and only gets them when given.My other horse is fine with being given treats and doesnt try get one unless given by me.Maybe im not being consistant enough with the same correction (sometimes i turn him in a circle,other times i put my hand up etc)so will work on that.
 
One thing I've tried with horses that are lazy on the lunge is rather than tying to get them to trot a whole circuit, try doing lots of transitions. So ask for trot, after 5 strides ask for walk, after 3 strides ask for trot again, and so on. Once the horse has woken up and is listening to you, then ask them to sustain the trot for longer. This worked very well with a super lazy 4 yr old warmblood, although it took a month or more before his trot started to get noticeably better. I think partly it is about fitness with youngsters, and also about them learning about work and doing what you want them to, not what they want to do.
If you want to get him trotting on the lead rein, try carrying a schooling whip with you when you lead him. Have it in the hand furthest away from the horse, and if he won't respond to voice aids, or the rope, give him a tickle or a tap with the whip. You don't need to hit him or be mean to him - just a little tap to say wakey wakey! This often works quite well because it enables you to encourage from behind, rather than pull from the front, which very rarely works with lazy horses. I've found this quite effective with youngsters when they don't understand that they can't drag behind you on the leadrope - they need to walk out next to you!
 
You say he won't go into trot sometimes - have you actually taught him what you do when you want him to trot... A lot of the time in youngsters bad behaviour isn't actually bad behaviour but the horse not knowing what we are asking of him.
 
Yeah i am happy just to get a few steps of trot for now.I used to get someone to follow behind and hit the ground with the lunge whip which always gets him trotting but just wasnt sure if that would make him depend on it and with a schooling whip he does go into trot most of the time,usually after a few trys.My voice and body language do change when asking for trot and he does listen the majority of the time so i do think he knows what i am asking.He is happy to trot when i ask when out of the yard,think it is because it is more exciting with the change of scenery.He also does not trot in the field when asked,when leading.I plan on showing him so really need to start working on that.He did try to nip a few times today but as soon as i put my hand near his face,he would stop so think that is definately improving.
 
xxcxx said:
I think it is just a playful thing with him.He is the same when im leading him and my sister is leading my other horse,he will try to nip my other horse on the bum.He is just trying to play.I have tried putting my hand or elbow up.Id ssay he has definately got better than he was a few months ago.Groundwork with him is always in a school and if i lunge it will be walking a circle once on each rein or i will work on him moving away from pressure or walk and trot him round the school so it is never long.When i have given him treats it will be good timing i would say.If i ask for stand,when he stands,i give a treat.If i ask him to move away from my pressure as soon as he takes a step,i treat.I have stopped because of the nipping but do think treats is a good way as long as he learns he doesnt bug me for them and only gets them when given.My other horse is fine with being given treats and doesnt try get one unless given by me.Maybe im not being consistant enough with the same correction (sometimes i turn him in a circle,other times i put my hand up etc)so will work on that.
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you dont need to be treating him for every little good moment....the release of pressure plus for a really good effort a verbal praise and a rub on the forehead or neck is enough.
 
Yeah that's what i do,release pressure and say good boy/give him a clap.I have barely given treats for the past year because i just assumed the nipping was because of the treats.
 
Part of the problem is you seeing it as him being 'just trying to play' - you need to stop seeing it as cute and normal and start insisting on some manners.
 
Thanks but definately do not see it as funny or cute.That is why i have been trying to correct it for the past year! But yeah i really do see it as him just being cheeky,trying to play or just thinking i have treats for him.There is no aggression in him what so ever.
 
xxcxx said:
Thanks but definately do not see it as funny or cute.That is why i have been trying to correct it for the past year! But yeah i really do see it as him just being cheeky,trying to play or just thinking i have treats for him.There is no aggression in him what so ever.
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Again - you need to stop seeing it as play. It is rude and dangerous behaviour. The horse isn't the problem, you are.
 
Thanks but i do know my own horse.He isnt doing it to be dangerous or because he is confused etc He does the same thing with my other horse when they are both being led together.If he is doing it because he thinks he can get treats then yeah that would be my fault for giving in the first place but for th epast year i have being doing everything to correct it and let him know it is wrong.
 
xxcxx said:
Thanks but i do know my own horse.He isnt doing it to be dangerous or because he is confused etc He does the same thing with my other horse when they are both being led together.If he is doing it because he thinks he can get treats then yeah that would be my fault for giving in the first place but for th epast year i have being doing everything to correct it and let him know it is wrong.
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The horse might not be doing in 'on purpose' - they are doing it because you have not taught them it isn't acceptable. As long as you allow (and make excuses for ) the behaviour, you will never solve the problem.

You might not see it as dangerous but it has the potential to be something really serious. What happens if you ever have a change of circumstances and have to sell - noone wants to buy a rude horse as they are unplasant to be about.

I have had my wrist broken by someones 'ickle wickle darling who isnt doing it to be bad'.

Thanks but I know my own horse
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And quite clearly your horse knows you as it is completely taking advantage of you.

I am being blunt here because you asked how to correct bad behaviour and then totally disregarded all the advice offered - instead choosing to say 'he doesn't mean it'. Whether he means it or not it is up to you to stop it. The buck stops with you. You're right - it isn't the horse that is the problem, it is the handler.
 
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Bolshy young cob + dually/rope halter and 12' lead + blue pipe + consistent rules = mannerly, polite and pleasant to be with youngster for the future.

Knowing how and when to use pressure and release is key to teaching the youngster to lead nicely, the pipe is useful for keeping your and his space at an appropriate distance, it also delivers a swift reprimand to nipping.

Old fashioned methods and disliked by many, but discipline is vital. Obviously all youngsters are different in the degree of discipline they need. I have 3 at the moment, one gelding who can be corrected by voice and if you shouted or smacked him he would have a melt down. A filly who needs the occasional sharp word and a gelding who is a thug and has had some tough correcting recently.

Horses can so easily hurt us or worse, it is our responsibility to train them to be pleasant to be around. None are born bad we make them bad and they suffer for it in the long term. The Op's cob is merely treating it's owner the same way it would a field mate and the issues can soon be rectified.
 
I certainly dont allow it or make excuses for him.I see what he is doing as dangerous but he is definately not doing it out of aggression.He will never be sold.Ok...i have said thanks to everyone for their advice and said that i will work on it,now how is that disregarding their advice.I know what to do to correct bad behaviour just wasnt sure if i should do it with trust (just stopping and asking him to do it again) or by making him to it/smacking/circling him etc because by doing that a horse could lose trust in the handler and wasnt sure if that would make him act out and not listen or whatever (dont really know how to explain it) but basically by trust or fear.Yeah he has already gotten alot better.Last time i went to the yard,i just spent time with him outside the field.Grooming and some leading and he slowly went to nip me twice in all the time i was there and i just had to say no and move my hand up and he would stop.
 
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