How to cut through the horsey BS and tell if your instructor has a scooby doo?

kerilli

kerilli

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This is an offshoot from another thread, something I said in jest but 2 people thought was a good idea for a thread.
So, suggestions please from others who have been there and have some (bitter?) experience in this area.

How to tell whether your instructor is actually any good, pretty-much irrespective of their qualifications or otherwise, their age, their confidence, etc:

My top and bottom 8 (in no particular order, however):
1. Can they answer any questions you may have, patiently, confidently and clearly?
2. If they ride (not essential imho, but useful) do they look competent and balanced?
3. Are they patient and kind with your horse, even if s/he doesn't understand something immediately?
4. Do they act as if they like your horse? (If they despise your horse or you, you are not going to get the best from them...)
5. Do you end your lesson feeling happy and as if you have accomplished something?
6. Does their teaching style suit how you as an individual need to learn - e.g if you need detailed explanation, or visible demonstration, or cajoling, or reassuring, or yelling at, or whatever is best for you - can and do they do that?
7. Are they interested in your progress, do they ask about your goals, how you've done, where you are going next, etc etc?
8. Do they re-cap things you need to work on, at the end of the lesson? Do they give you 'homework' to do before the next session?

Signs that they're not all that great:

1. They keep praising you even when you realise it's going badly.
2. They put you down to big themselves up.
3. They get angry when asked to explain things.
4. They make you feel that you can't ride your horse, and angle for the ride.
5. They spend a huge proportion of the lesson riding your horse, but when you are allowed back on, you can't feel much difference, and/or they can't tell you how to get it better.
6. They clock-watch and don't give you a minute over your allotted time, even if the last exercise isn't working with that horse.
7.They answer their phone all the time or seem uninterested in teaching you.
8. Do they ask you to do exercises (I'm thinking particularly of jump trainers here) which you or your horse struggle with, and not realise and alter the exercise, instead letting the session go from bad to worse, and rocking your and your horse's confidence?

and finally, this isn't just about instructors:
Lots of injuries on their yard. Sorry, but if horses and/or people keep getting injuries, I think that means basic safe handling techniques aren't being followed, or unruly horses are doing what they want... I've been on that kind of livery yard. Took a while for the penny to drop... :( :(

Anyone particularly agree or disagree with these? Additions/alterations welcome...
 
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kerilli said:
1. They keep praising you even when you realise it's going badly.
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Agree with this, but at the same time, when things are going wrong they DON'T make you feel about an inch high, but explain why it is going wrong clearly and patiently, pick out anything you WERE doing right as well as just what you were doing wrong, and then explain how to put it right.

That's how I teach (not riding, but the principles apply whatever you teach), anyway:)
 
good post.
I think a good instructor will be able to explain something in different ways and have different exercises up their sleeve to help get the same result if the first trys aren't working for either horse or rider. Even if a lesson isn't going brilliantly (horse not cooperating, rider feeling nervy or tired, horizontal rain etc!) then they should still be able to help you feel that it has been a worthwhile use of your time - there should always be a positive from the lesson to build on for the next!
 
Great thread.
One thing which I think is important is that they not be overly concerned with time constraints - whilst I appreciate this is important somewhere like a riding school with timed rides if you're working with a trainer it's no use them working "to the clock".
I've had lessons that have lasted 20 minutes - things were going well and no point pushing it to make something go wrong - and lessons that have lasted 4 hours with me riding 3 different horses until I got something right on them and on my own. All with the same trainer - he always instilled that you have to end on a good note no matter how long it took to get there!
 
My top and bottom 8 (in no particular order, however):
1. Can they answer any questions you may have, patiently, confidently and clearly? Yes but not patiently
2. If they ride (not essential imho, but useful) do they look competent and balanced? Yes
3. Are they patient and kind with your horse, even if s/he doesn't understand something immediately? Generally, but he is ALWAYS fair and keeps the lines drawn in the same place - something I really struggle with
4. Do they act as if they like your horse? (If they despise your horse or you, you are not going to get the best from them...) Yes
5. Do you end your lesson feeling happy and as if you have accomplished something? No
6. Does their teaching style suit how you as an individual need to learn - e.g if you need detailed explanation, or visible demonstration, or cajoling, or reassuring, or yelling at, or whatever is best for you - can and do they do that? No, he gets frustrated with me and shouts/belittles. I don't think he really understands the needs of a novice. He trains my horse too and I think he looks to the horse more than me (Example, he expects me to ride in a outline straight off - I need about 25 mins to warm into this)
7. Are they interested in your progress, do they ask about your goals, how you've done, where you are going next, etc etc? Ummmm, yeah but it doesn't translate to my lessons
8. Do they re-cap things you need to work on, at the end of the lesson? Do they give you 'homework' to do before the next session? Not really

Signs that they're not all that great:

1. They keep praising you even when you realise it's going badly. Praise - I wish! He generally just criticises. Not good for my confidence
2. They put you down to big themselves up. Do you know him? :D
3. They get angry when asked to explain things. Yep
4. They make you feel that you can't ride your horse, and angle for the ride. Well he does ride him but I have had comments like "you need to learn to ride"
5. They spend a huge proportion of the lesson riding your horse, but when you are allowed back on, you can't feel much difference, and/or they can't tell you how to get it better. No
6. They clock-watch and don't give you a minute over your allotted time, even if the last exercise isn't working with that horse. No
7.They answer their phone all the time or seem uninterested in teaching you. No
8. Do they ask you to do exercises (I'm thinking particularly of jump trainers here) which you or your horse struggle with, and not realise and alter the exercise, instead letting the session go from bad to worse, and rocking your and your horse's confidence? No, it's his way or no-way!
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He is my OH and is the absolute picture of professional calm with his paying students though. I do get very frustrated because I feel there is too wide a gap between my ability and his. I feel I need to build on my position and strength before worrying too much about the precise position of my horse's muzzle on a circle. (I stand to be corrected here!)

It is horrible though, I did my 1st dressage test in my life last week and he took my horse in the same comp and a higher level and won. I overheard someone saying that they hadn't realised my horse was so good coz they'd only seen me riding him :o But hey, I can take it...........

I generally like instructors who can see the "whole picture" (one of my favourites was a 20 yr old lass in the UK - she just had an eye for mistakes!). Also, I like instructors to have an arsenal of solutions and exercises to suit different combinations of horse and rider - if it aint working, try something else.

OH's instructor is a very high level chap and just dictates. I think this can work if the rider has a good ability and can just "do it". I'm not sure it's a good technique for a novice though.

Good post though, looking forward to the responses! :)

Edited to add - I do have a more novicey lesson once a week in the riding school but it's not great equitation (even I can see that) and although good for my position/musculation, I don't think a group lesson is great for my horse.
 
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It took me ages to find my instructor! I know how I want to be taught and what I want to be taught. My lady is a BD GP dressage rider that rides classically and has experience of training people with ex racers - BONUS!

I teach my friends low level flatwork stuff, position, and sorting out problem horses or general problems with their way of going. I don't charge, I am a fool!

I think for the novice/ new horse owners it is really hard. I can smell BS a mile off, but not sure if a new person would. Tough one, good thread!
 
I would also add that just because they have the experience and are good riders themselves, doesnt mean that they can teach!

I'm very lucky that my YO teaches me (also taught me to ride!) and she is old school, but fantastic! She really knows her stuff, and is always happy to help.
 
MiJodsR2BlinkinTite said:
Another thought I'd add to the list is don't ever consider having a lesson from a friend or OH, (or friends OH), even if qualified, or anyone else you know well & get on OK with on a social level - dangerous!
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So v v true! I no longer have lessons (or 'help' when riding) from my oh. We have different approaches and benefit from different teaching styles. We do not work well together in a teacher/student situation! If I am finding something difficult I expect him to sympathise in a bf style, not push me in an instructor style. I have difficulties not taking it to heart! I have a fantastic instructor now, an approach that suits me better and because I'm not spending time taking things to heart and getting upset my mare and I are improving much faster!!
 
Kerilli, following on from your point number 2....is there many instructors who dont ride??

I would personally deem that essential that they rode and rode well, so that if im having difficulty with something, they can hop on and show me what i am trying to achieve.
Also if there is something where horse and rider arnt clicking whilst trying to do something in particular, then if an instructor can ride the horse and get a feel for it they can suggest different angles of tackling it and different things to try.
My instructor is absolutely fantastic and can spot instantly from the ground where things are going wrong...but also, she is an extremely talented rider and can get the best out of any horse. so is facinating to watch how she does things when riding.
 
The best judge of your RI/trainer is your horse. If the horse is getting it right then you're getting it right which means they're getting it right. Usually!

It was mentioned about the RI that praises even when it's going wrong....I'm probably guilty of this to some extent BUT you have to understand that if everything is going wrong, the student is constantly told 'no you're doing it wrong' at the end of the lesson they feel like crap and they never come back! (which often could be a good thing :D) So if everything really is going wrong, I tend to pick out sommething that isn't going too bad and praise them for that at least. If the student has become an emotional wreck then I might even praise them for a lesson they did a week or so ago so they remember that they CAN ride.

At the end of the day we all have bad lessons for one reason or another, but I think a good teacher will always end on a high, even if it's just both of you laughing about how fetching you look in your new mud coloured jods :D
 
Yes I totally agree, I'm lucky that my Trainers are all fab- however I have had the misfortune to train with a trainer for a one off lesson in the past who I can only describe as controlling to say the least,a bit of a psycho!! I tried one lesson and wasn't keen on her methods and rudeness!, but to feel I was giving it a go I booked another lesson which just confirmed by thoughts even more and I just felt like I was being pressurised in to re booking for the next week, which I didn't do.

Every week the Trainer would be texting her clients to rebook for the following week, and in the end I just didn't respond to her texts as thought she must have the message by now!!- I was getting pestered for booking lessons for a year!, one time she even texted me and said she wanted to check that I was ok as she was worried that I'd fallen off and died!, which is a bit odd!!

The thing is my regular trainers are so busy that they don't need to chase clients for traing sessions, however they are there for me when I would like to book a lesson, which is nice.
 
What a great post. Nothing to add or take away but I especially like the accident rate on the yard as a sign for alarm bells. :)
 
Coming at this from a slightly different angle. Any instructor worth their salt should have two key skills.

1) They should be able to see where you are and envisage where you are going. In other words, they should be able to see the skills you have and also those that you can develop. They may or may not communicate this to you, but as a student you should feel that there is a direction to your training.

2) They should be able to explain or show you what you are doing wrong and then explain or show you how to correct this. If they cannot show or explain clearly and patiently, then although they may well know their subject, they cannot communicate it, and that is their job.


I have a particular worry about controlling instructors, and have seen a number of posts and met people in the flesh, who will not make key decisions regarding the purchase or care or development of their horses without first consulting their instructor. Take good advice by all means, but take responsibility for yourself as well.
 
only_me said:
I would also add that just because they have the experience and are good riders themselves, doesnt mean that they can teach!

That is so true, the truly talented 'get things' that the rest of us have to break down into tiny segments to establish feel for and I do wonder if something comes 'naturally' to some people if they would have the ability to break it apart to enable them to then pass it on to another perhaps less naturally talented rider in a way that it could be understood.

I had some fantastic lessons with instructors who were able to do just that. Were they world beaters themselves? No, just fabulous communicators.
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Great thread K - just a couple of things to add

there are plenty to great riders who can't teach, and some great trainers who can't ride - really the topic of another thread - but Dot Willis comes to mind.... she could definitely train!!

As an instructor, one of the things I love about teaching is finding the right words ..... I know what I want to produce in the horse and rider, but not every rider understands the same words and phrases. I can say the same thing 20 different ways so that 20 different riders can communicate it to the horse. The psychology of training is fascinating :):)

ETA I train one of my best friends - she would be my friend if I didn't teach her, and I would teach her even if we weren't good friends. We are good at making a clear demarcation between the two - at least I think so - she may be along later to deny the whole thing lol!!

I think to teach friends though, there has to be mutual respect and a degree of professionalism.....
 
If they tell you the only way you will ever enjoy or succeed at dressage at any level, is by buying some German/Dutch/Belgian WB which they can import immediately for you, this trainer is

a) On commission
b) Looking for rides

:rolleyes: Good thread. :)
 
Last year I considered moving to a yard but decided not to because they did not allow outside trainers. In my personal opinion that is not a good attitude for an instructor, and not what I am looking for.

Word of mouth can be good - and observation. If you see people and horses who really improve, it is always interesting to know who helped them along :-)

Some of the best instructors I have seen were not necessarily "nice" and for this reason did scare away some clients, but the ones who stuck with them improved lots. So it may be down to what sort of approach you prefer.

In general, I prefer instructors who constantly give feedback and correct me - the ones I have liked the least are those who don't say much and/or chat to other people and/or are on their mobile phone. But then again, some people feel that it becomes too much "nagging" if they are constantly corrected, and it can be overwhelming for beginners or people for whom it is more important to improve their confidence rather than technical riding skill.

I think it is important to know oneself too - I have met people who say that they want to improve their riding, but where it is quite clear that technical skills or improvement is not their first nor their second priority. For some people, "feeling comfortable", "improving confidence", and "having a nice time" socially during their lesson are the most important things...
 
The rubbish instructor for me tells you to "Do X" rather than "How to do X". I can shout "Half-pass" to myself if need be and it costs nothing, the whole point is to get someone to explain why I can't get the bend, move sideways, keep the impulsion etc and how to fix all this!!!
 
Good thread!

My holy grail as far as instructors are concerened is one who seems to know exactly how far she can push you and/or the horse - one who is able to take you just far enough out of your comfort zone to allow progress, without undoing good groundwork and eroding confidence.

My bugbear: instructors who concentrate solely on the horse's way of going without addressing rider faults which are causing or contributing to the problem. I want someone who wil pick my seat and riding to pieces in order to ensure that I am riding as effectively as possible!
 
La Fabia, good point, I guess I was thinking of 1 particular instructor (quite high up in BHS hierarchy) who taught me once, years ago, when horse was headshaking like a nutcase and really not concentrating or going well, and this guy just kept saying "Lovely... lovely"... I swear that if he said it once he said it 100 times, and the horse was going like crap, maybe he was just praising my patience but really he should have come up with something else!
I don't want praise for rubbish, one reason why I click so well with my dr instructor is because he rarely praises but when he does, boy, do I realise I've earned it! In fact, I still treasure every word because it's so rare... ;) ;) If I get an "Ah... ha!" that's really good, I get quite a few of those, but real fulsome praise in words, nah. When he said "you've really improved this horse" (of 1 I had in to event) I nearly fainted, he's only over monthly so I spend a lot of time on my own, hence this really meant something.

skychick, I know quite a few who don't ride. My sj instructor doesn't jump any more, and I've never seen her ride, but she's an absolutely excellent pair of eyes on the ground, which is exactly what I want... I don't want anyone to get on and jump my horses anyway. I had a dr trainer ages ago for 1 lesson but tbh she was absolutely HUGE and so couldn't really have ridden, and tbh I wasn't impressed anyway so didn't have her again.
My dr trainer has only once ridden one of my horses (when I had the day from hell, a total meltdown, and sobbed, and he rode 1 of my youngsters years ago because I was too all-over-the-place to do it!) and although he's a tiny bit do-as-I-say-not-as-I-do (taking a firmer inside rein contact than he allows his pupils, for example, because he has better timing and feel I think) he rode just as well as I expected him to, exemplary seat and position. But he's a Bereiter (or whatever the next stage up is, I'm not sure) so I'd expect that, I think the German system is a far better guarantee of excellence than the BHS... but that's a whole new thread... ;) ;)
 
camilla4 said:
Good thread!

My holy grail as far as instructors are concerened is one who seems to know exactly how far she can push you and/or the horse - one who is able to take you just far enough out of your comfort zone to allow progress, without undoing good groundwork and eroding confidence.

My bugbear: instructors who concentrate solely on the horse's way of going without addressing rider faults which are causing or contributing to the problem. I want someone who wil pick my seat and riding to pieces in order to ensure that I am riding as effectively as possible!
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Oh yes, great points.
The second one in particular... YES!!! I've always thought, if I can become as good as him, my horses will start going like Mark Todd's...
my dr trainer is one of those legendary ones, he didn't let me out of walk for my first lesson or two.
your first point... yes, exceptional judgement is required, a really great eye for things.

Flame_, i'd forgotten that one... "that horse is crap, you need a big German warmblood for dressage, I know exactly the horse and it'll only cost you x..." ;) ;)
 
Going by the list in the OP, my instructor must be pretty much perfect. :) I'm a nervous rider (or at least I used to be - I've come on in leaps and bounds!) and tend to get frustrated with myself and completely forget how to ride once the tiniest thing goes wrong, but she knows exactly how hard to push me so that I stop feeling sorry for myself and start putting the effort in, without knocking my confidence or making me feel crap. Some people don't like her because she can be quite harsh and will tell you in no uncertain terms if you're riding like an idiot, but I think she only does this to people who she knows can handle it and can do better, so in a way I'm kind of flattered when she tells me off because it shows me that she has faith in me to do better - the only ones she heaps unnecessary praise on are the total no-hopers who have spent two years trying to master rising trot, so if she ever started being too nice to me I'd be heartbroken!
 
Great thread.

I have learnt more in 12 months with my current instructor than I did in 3 years with my last one. Probably in 6 months. I dread to think how much money I realistically wasted :o

Looking back, I'm not sure why I stuck with her for so long. I always thought my lack of progress was down to my basic inability to ride effectively, but my current trainer has proved that isn't the case.

I love my current RI's boundless enthusiasm when it's going right, and clarity when it's not. Her patience and ability to explain things clearly mean I always 100% understand what I'm trying to achieve, even if I don't always get there first (or second) time. It's almost as if she rides from the ground for me some days, I can then *feel* what I'm trying to achieve in my lessons, and then work to replicate this on my own. This has been the key for me.

The right trainer for you is worth their weight in gold :D
 
I like a kind instructor.Mine is, but she is also effective.Ihave had the kind that says I SAY IT AS IT IS etc. and for some of them at least, it is just down right bullying and the couple I have had like that have been nowhere near as good as my current one.One took it upon herself to decide that I shouldn't ride or own a horse.What she really meant was that SHE shouldn't ride.Agree about the level of accidents too.Usually something wrong somewhere.
 
Good list! One thing that is important to me, is what is his/her horsey CV? What's their experience and achievements, either personally or with other clients. I have seen an awful lot of instructors teaching people to do things they don't have the nerve or experience to do themselves. Madness!

And good point about do they like your horse, and how does your horse react to them. I had an instructor years ago who would spend the entire lesson telling me NOT to do such and such, then he would get on and do the exact same thing. He'd have me jumping on hard ground and also never spotted that my horse began to stop and run out because his saddle didn't fit, just had me beating him over fences. I die at the vey thought now. He eventually stopped getting on my horse as they horse hated him and went so badly for him. In one lesson my horse took off across a field so fast, all the stuff came flying out of the guy's breeches pockets! Phone, change, keys, everything!! He brought him back and horse did the exact same thing again! I see him occasionally now and last year he shouted across the yard "how's your lad? Still running off all over the place?" to which I replied no, and that he was hunting. He's been off with me ever since. His ego couldln't take the fact another local instructor fixed us, whereas he had been totally out of his depth. He only wants to ride and train easy horses that make him look good. Whereas my instructor will always improve you, and will fix any problem you care to throw at her.

Ooh that's another one - ego! None is good!! :)
 
Oh gosh yes, the difference between Ego and Confidence, and between having faith in a system, and being too inflexible to change for a specific horse and its problems... all difficult judgement calls, which good instructors manage.
Lurky, you're right, if my trainer ever praises me fulsomely i'll know he's given up on me!
 
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