How to end another disaster loan

J

JammieJames

Member
Joined
25 June 2012
Messages
10
Visit site
Sorry this is a long one, a sorry tale of woe...

I have a quality warmblood who is out on loan. It is a loan at the yard I am on due to two previous loans going disasterously wrong and the horse being returned in a state and/or injured each time, despite these being BHSII and above and checking his progress every few months.

The horse is over 17 hh and I am honest when loaning that he is quirky and needs a very experienced and confident rider/handler who is firm but fair and will take no messing. He is very well bred and has very big movement and can be sharp. When he was a youngster he was a little **** who didn't trust people and would bite and kick and it took a few years to get him to stop napping/rearing etc and behave like a genuine, polite and mostly normal horse once his confidence was there. His first loan was due to me having an accident and was very successful. He enjoyed hunting, hacking, shows, jumping and was very happy and calm.

OK, he is now on loan to a girl who lied about her experience and skills, perhaps because she is deluded or if I'm nice maybe she misjudged it. The problem was, when she turned up I had run out of money, the horse had been returned in a mess and I spent 1 year getting him up to weight again and he wasn't ready for her to ride initially. It didn't come to light how inexperienced she was for a while as she talked the talk and he had to walk for over a month. By the time I realised something was amiss, she had already bought a saddle and rugs and was obsessed with him.

I was going to tell her it wasn't working as his behaviour started to deteriorate and he was going around with his head in the air but after having a chat she got some lessons and seemed to bond with him better. However this didn't last. Any problems and she never seemed to identify that she was the cause. If I said something about how he was going or what she was doing it just got ignored. However the horse seemed happy with her ignorance and bumping about in the saddle and they sort of muddled along. She did take alot of care of him but it was the riding side (head in the air, napping and bad habits he was getting while being handled I was unhappy with.

We moved yards and she was always riding when I wasn't there so I didn't see how it was going. She said it was all going fine. I did take this with a pinch of salt as she once told me "oh yes the canter work and the flying changes are lovely" and I KNOW she couldn't ride a flying change if her life depended on it. She talked the talk. But she was managing to hack out with others at last and nobody said anything about any problems.

Then he went lame. The last conversation I had with her before that was about her saying she's been having a lovely time cantering in the fields and I said well are you sure the ground isn't too hard. Then the next day she talls me she's won an argument with him in the field as he wanted to gallop everywhere. Then he's lame.

Since then he has got really fat. I warned her in February to cut her field in half and she didn't. Then I warned her again in March not to let him get too fat. A month ago I said enough was enough he was way too fat, looked like a cart horse. She said oh he's lovely and calm and I said its cos he's so fat he can't move, he looks like a shire and I'm worried about Lami as there's so much fat. We agreed that she'd put him in a small corner of his field and only increase it very slowly as she was feeling unwell and didn't want to keep him in for part of the day. I thought she was sticking to this and she told me he was now sound. She has been writing his "weight loss" on a chart so I thought it was going ok.

Well today I got him in for a good look. He's so huge he's almost unrecognisable (where's this amazing weight loss?) and he's still lame. I know I am the owner and I'm responsible and that it is partly my own fault. I wonder if the last time she rode him whether he scared her as she hasn't been getting him out of the field and although she's still doing the general duties, I never see her. She says it's because she's ill.

How do i go about ending this loan with an obsessive girl? I am worried at what she might do and the problems she may cause at the livery yard. To be honest I feel it's time to call it a day for this horse as he's late teens and I have no money or time to try fix him all over again and I don't think he'll come sound.
 
Last edited:
Well, from the sounds of it you need to end the loan before it gets any worse! Tell this girl that as horse is lame, you want to take care of him and that you don't feel it's appropriate for her to do so. If she's not taking care of him, maybe she's lost interest anyway.

Save money/time by turning him out at grass livery, on sparse grazing - section off field if need be, and/or muzzle him. Get his weight back down. Late teens isn't old. Give him the rest of the summer at least and see how he goes. Could be rest will sort him.

What does your vet think? Could he be brought back to reasonable health and then sold as a light hack?
 
To be honest it sounds like you have massively failed in your responsibilities to this horse.

The horse is on the same yard as you, there is absolutely no excuse for you not to have taken any action before he got into this state, or when you realised the girl was not as experienced as she had let you believe.

Why do you even have the horse if you can't afford to keep it and don't want to spend the time and trouble getting it right?

Have you even had the vet to this horse? You should have if he has been lame for this long, and I don't see how you can judge whether he will come sound or not if you don't know what is wrong.

I would tell the girl you are giving her notice on the loan as you want him back, simple as that - and then either look after the horse yourself or have him PTS.
 
I have tried to sell him before. I couldn't find anyone who wanted an older horse who could ride something like him.

He went lame last summer for a month when the ground was hard. so this year we decided to give him some time off (like last year) and see how it went. She doesn't want to stump up the cash for the vet and my money has been drained fixing him each time someone messes him up (£3500 vet bills etc).

I have been having problems of my own and have been on anti depressants which turned me into a zombie. I took myself off them last week as I was getting so confused that I wasn't functioning properly. I knew deep down I couldn't trust her and that I should do something but I feel intimidated that she'll get back at me and cause alot of vindictive bother. Also I was living in a house that her family had keys to.
 
Tenants have certain rights and landlords that breach them are subject to legal action.
Taking yourself off anti-depressants should only be attempted under the guidance and supervision of your doctor.
Your loaner refuses to pay for vet, and isn't caring for the horse. I suggest you try to be better than she is. Vindictive bother can also be remedied by legal action.

Man up. The horse has no say what happens to him. You do. End the loan, consult your vet, determine from there whether to treat and loan/sell, or PTS. He was lame last year and came right. He may do so again. Selling takes time, no matter what horse is like.

Poor horse:(
 
When I read your initial post I felt something wasn't right with you. You then explained in your second post that you have been on anti-depressants and are in a confused state yourself.

I'm afraid I largely agree with the OP. Whatever problems you have, they are not the fault of your horse, who is the victim in all this. He is YOUR horse, YOUR responsibility. Don't now make excuses. He was kept on the same yard (which indicates that you have another horse), so what were you thinking of letting him get to this state? I don't know what laon arrangement you have with the girl - I suspect you haven't tied things up properly - because either she or you have to foot those vet bills, and get the horse attended to. If she has bought a saddle and rugs for it then hopefully she should have the money for a vet. Who was meant to care for its health? Her or you?

The bottom line seems to be that you don't like the girl or her riding abilities, haven't the money to look after the horse, and are prepared to write it off when you don't even know for sure whether the lameness is serious or not.

I know it's hard when you have problems of your own, but you really have got to face up to your responsibilities on this one. Have you nobody who can give you some moral, mental support - family, YO or friends on the yard? If the girl had been SUCH a disaster, I would have thought that the people she was riding with, who presumably are known to you since you were once on the same yard, would have said something.

And finally, since you say that you have spent £3500 getting him right after previous loaning disasters, why on earth did you loan him out agin?
 
He was looking great until April and she seemed happy, he seemed happy. I was hoping she'd got to grips with riding him as her strength and balance built up with more riding. It was only me that was unhappy.

I go up late after work and don't really see anyone and only moved there this winter. My energy has been used up caring for my other horse who I got before I had him back again as he was on "permanent loan". Why did I keep him? Because nobody wanted to buy him. Why did I loan him? Because I wasn't capable of riding him or dealing with him any more.

Today is the first time someone has commented on her riding, probably because It's the forst week I've really talked to anyone. I've kept myself to myself. They said she leaves the arena if someone turns up and that they see him on two legs when they do see him. They said that oh yes she is irritating and knows it all but not really. This is why I went and got him in. It's a big yard and you just don't see the people and horses on other parts of it.

For all I know the other liveries may think he's hers.
 
Last edited:
So basically you didn't mind her loaning him & presumably paying his normal costs at first even though he wasn't sound enough to assess her riding ability. Then you decide her riding is ruining him, causing napping etc. Even though you haven't been able to sell him in the past as nobody who wants him can manage him, so really not much schooling to be ruined. Plus if he's supposedly difficult to ride, she can't be as crap as you are making out if its taken you this long to figure out she's struggling. Then he goes lame again, just like last year but you blame her for it anyway, & expect her to stump up the cash for the vet. Think you should end the loan, for her sake. Just say sorry, I have been taking advantage of you in letting you loan an unsound & unsuitable horse, because I am skint, but its gone on long enough now. She might have made novice mistakes with his care, but only a novice would be gullible enough to loan a lame horse in the first place so that's to be expected. It was your responsibility to make sure he was cared for.
And you haven't had a vet out because he's lame but are happily slagging her off for letting him get fat. The words pot & kettle spring to mind.
 
He wasn't lame when the loan started. He was lame when he came back from loan before but i had given him vet, time to recover, physio, long reining, lungeing, leading him out and he was sound. I told her it was a gamble if he sayed sound as I was never told what had happened to him by the **** who messed him up last time.

No I never expected her to stump up for a vet. We have been giving him time off as that's what worked last time.
 
Last edited:
no I think the horse has turned out to be more genuine and forgiving than I thought, rather then her riding being great. It helps that she is very tall and can get her leg round him.

He was bred for top level competition, it is a whole different level and type of horse to what anyone buying a horse in it's late teens wants to buy. Anyone who wants that type of horse is a professional rider and they want youngsters.

we had to move from our last yard as we were asked to leave cos she pissed everyone including the owner off with her big headedness and stories.

He was well schooled and polite when she started out. I did ride him myself when she was ill and without a saddle as she had it at home.
 
Last edited:
Poor poor horse non of this is his fault, well I don't kow how you are going to end this loan without it being a nightmare but end it you must but you have to make a long term plan for him so this does not happen again, this is not going to be easy but he's your responsiblity so get on with it.
 
I might be accused of being a fluffy bunny, it wont be the first time.

I would give the girl one last chance. She loves the horse, has been happy with it, just screwed up the management. The behaviour problems could come down to incorrect feeding as well as the weight issues.

You admit you have not taken much interest in what has been going on, so partly your fault as well.

Sit the girl down and tell her exactly how it is and that what you are considering. Give her chance to come up with a plan which works for the horse, you and herself and stick to it. Be prepared to help her if necessary, you cant just wash your hands of it, if she keeps it.

Put a time scale on it, re-assess every month, and stick to it.

Poor horse has done nothing wrong and the loaners behaviour sounds as though she has problems of her own.

You both need to behave like adults in this and work together for the horses sake.

If it doesn't work at least they will both have had a chance.
 
What a mess, i think you need to be straight with the girl and tell her enough is enough. Make it a formal meeting, not just a chat, give her the chance to explain herself as that's only fair but don't let yourself in away with the loan still in place.

I feel for you, when life gets on top of you its difficult to be rationale about things and it seems easier to bury your head in the sand. Hopefully once its ended it will give you the chance to move on and sort something else out.

Would sending the horse away for professional schooling be an option once he's sound? Might be expensive but could bring him on to be able to sell or loan more successfully? Short term pain for longer gain and all that.

Sending supportive vibes, sounds like you need them.

Good luck.
 
Let me get this right. You want to end the loan so that the horse (who you do not think will come sound) can be PTS?
 
Can't see that this girl is doing anything wrong, expect be inexperienced. Give her support and guidance (tell her what she must do, rather than suggest) and go from there.

Get the vet and find out why he's lame (obviously). But a bit of a canter on hard ground won't have lamed him. So I think it's a bit unfair at this stage to level this accusation at the girl.

Some 'difficult' horses can surprise everyone by being a superstar for one individual that comes along in their life...........

How old is the loaneee?
 
Last edited:
I agree. Poor horse.

I'm afraid you need to take a deep breath and keep it simple for yourself, your horse and her. Say 'I'm very sorry as I know you love him but I'm afraid I would like him back. Please consider this your month's notice'

Get the vet out and have him properly assesed. If the vet thinks he will come right then I would get him right and ride him myself for a bit and then advertise him for loan again to STAY AT PRESENT YARD, ABSOLUTELY NO NOVICES. MUST HAVE COMPETED UPTO xxxxxx level dressage or jumped xxxxxx tracks BSJA etc (sorry not sure what type of comp horse he is) MUST BE PREPARED TO HAVE LESSONS WITH MY APPROVED TRAINER. YES, this sort of arrangement may take you a while to find someone but these sort of people are out there. Before I got my current horse on loan, I was looking for a dressage horse to full loan and I am NOT a numpty loaner. Competent, non numpty people ARE out there they may just take a while to find.

OR, don't loan him out. Sell/loan out your other one if that's younger/more sellable and keep him on yourself. OR have him PTS, I don't know. But for goodness sake he's YOUR horse. You are prefectly within your rights to terminate this agreement. She must see it coming really? Just take a deep breath, be brave and do it.

Good luck
 
regardless of the rights and wrongs and who did what and who didn't do the other it comes down to the simple fact he is your horse, you are not happy with how things are so it's time to call it a day with the loan. do you have a written agreement? if so there should be the option that if you are not happy you can take horse back with no notice, exercise that right and put it in writing to her that you are not happy with his current weight and lameness and from X date you will be taking over his full care and the loan is terminated.
Make sure you tell the YO that the girl is no longer loaning and has no reason from X date to be doing anything with your horse and if they see her messing with him can they let you know.
what you do in future with the horse is entirely up to you, but i would say that loaning him out may not be the best idea if this is the 3rd time it has failed.
 
You could try reverse psychology with the girl - call the vet out today while she's not there, telling her you found him very lame. Find out what is really wrong with him - then tell her it's not fair on her to be paying to loan a horse she can;t ride, he'll never come sound, he isn't insured and you can't afford to pay to get him better etc. Tell her she is better off looking for something else to loan, you can't take money off her for a lame horse that MAY end up being PTS if he doesn't get better.
She will either offer to keep looking after him as a non-rider if she loves him that much, or she will move on to loan something else.

You are going to have to get the vet out at some point, even if it's just to discuss PTS so you may as well bite the bullet and get it over and done with, find out what is ACTUALLY wrong with the horse and go from there. If the horse is overweight, get the vet to condition score him for you while he or she is there and then tell the girl the horse is a lami risk - it could be a factor in the lameness anyway. So she will HAVE to restrict him feed and get the weight off him. What does your farrier think? He may have an opinion on what's wrong, esp if the horse is overweight.

It is hard struggling with depression - I have been there myself and it's difficult enough to take good care of yourself let alone a horse as well. At least the girl is well-meaning and it sounds like she DOES care about your horse, even though not in the way you would prefer, so I would give her a chance, once you have the prognosis in black and white from the vet, to make up her own mind on what to do.

If she does decide to look for a new loan then you can move your horse to another yard and then make a decision on what to do with him. Maybe he could live out for the summer?
 
JammieJames said:
OK, he is now on loan to a girl who lied about her experience and skills, perhaps because she is deluded or if I'm nice maybe she misjudged it.
Click to expand...

My advice for what its worth: end this NOW!!!

I put my boy out on loan last autumn and I'd never loan any horse of mine ever again; I'd far rather sell TBH.

I can see that you're being ultra soft-hearted and don't want to hurt her feelings, but you must think of your horse - also of your own sanity basically in all this!

Get yours out of there ASAP; there are other people out there who'd love a horse like this and relish the challenge.
 
I feel so sorry for this poor horse. You don't even seem to like him and ultimately blame him for everything, so much so you would consider putting him to sleep just to end "your" burden.

I would actually come at this from a completely different angle, you don't like him, you can't ride him or look after him - this girl who is loaning him at least does seem to enjoy him and can ride him if she has been doing so all this time. You say you can't sell him due to his problems, so give him to the loaner!! Sign him over to her, walk away and leave him be. His weight issue may not be her fault at all as the grass this year has been odd to say the least because of the weather, he is out of work, and they can put on weight quickly, particularly so warmbloods - she will have learned by that and the best thing for this horse is to be with someone who likes him. Sorry, but I can't bear it when people say they will put a horse to sleep because they can't be bothered with the hassle anymore and it is usually hassle they themselves have caused.
 
Was thinking the exact same thing......your making out the loaner is to blame, but you are too.........let her have him..she can,t be any worse than you,ve been at managing his care.........because lets face it you have,nt been there or managed his care.Shes forked out alot of money for a saddle and rugs and given up alot of her time and "love"....can,t see that your any better than she is and I feel sorry for your horse.
 
How can people say let the loaner have him? Free to a GOOD home is one thing. This would be free to a home where the new owner won't call a vet to a lame horse and thinks keeping it obese to keep it calm is acceptable. How can any of you think that would be a good thing for the horse?

There's no point OP having a chat with this loaner, she clearly doesn't want advice, to the extent that she leaves the arena if there's any chance of someone watching her. I suspect the loaner is well aware of her shortcomings, or at least she is aware of others opinions even if she doesn't agree. What's more OP is intimidated by this person, has even moved yards as an easier option than getting rid of her. I don't think OP is in the right state to have any useful conversation with the loaner. (No offense intended OP.)

OP as others have said, this is your horse and your responsibility. You admit you've made a mistake. You've tried loaning and selling, both unsuccessfully. IMO if you want to PTS either for financial reasons or because you just can't cope with the horse, I see no wrong in that. If you do decide to PTS, can you give this as the reason for ending the loan, or is that likely to cause even more problems with the loaner?
 
Sugar_and_Spice said:
IMO if you want to PTS either for financial reasons or because you just can't cope with the horse, I see no wrong in that.
Click to expand...



again, I say - poor horse!! PTS for financial reasons? the horse did not choose to be bought by someone who cannot meet his needs, so why should being put to sleep be the right option?? I suggested giving the horse to the loaner because frankly, I could see no difference in care but at least the loaner seems to love the horse - by the owner's own writing, she can also ride the horse, the owner can't. So what if she can't compete the horse to the best of his ability, nor can the owner and the horse won't be pining away that he could have been at the Olympics! We have no evidence of the horse being "obese" and the lameness (which the owner also has not called a vet for, so maybe the loaner is taking a lead from the owner here as the horse was also lame last year before the loaner took over) could be due to having a sore foot. Any horse with the grass coming through as it did and who was suddenly out of work could put weight on. I would rather see him have a chance with the loaner than go back to his owner who may pts because she can't afford him anymore.
 
I 100% agree with littlelegs.

I bet your loaners version of events will show you in a very poor light.
U clearly try to lay blame at your loaner yet also sate that u decided to give him time off, you have been involved in decision making all along from what you have written.
The girl took on a difficult and lame horse, you slag her riding yet she's clearly coped better than you could.
Poor horse, not fit to take care of it yourself and your loaner has clearly done a better job than u and took on a lame difficult horse, but u want him back despite not being able to afford the care he needs.

I'd lay money on it that your loaner isn't getting the vet because it's a pre existing condition and the responsibility lies with you - very common in loaning when taking on a lame horse!
 
no he wasn't lame when she took him on as I wrote earlier, I had spent a year getting him right.

The main problem I have is that I warned about weight way before he had any problems and it was ignored, then it was mentioned again and ignored even though she agreed the way forward with me about the weight and keeping it down to prevent other problems. There was then a problem and again it was ignored. I have each time discussed it with her sensibly, she agrees a sensible way forward and then does her own sweet thing. This last obesity problem is due to her ignoring 4 different attempts by me at preventing it. I even insisted he had an area in my field which is very grazed down which was great until the YO needed to rest that field and I have to use someone else's field but I'm not allowed both in it. So he's back in his own field stuffing his face because that's what she seems to decide is ok.

My aim with this loan was that it was going to be his last loan and that if it was good then to give him to her. I don't feel this is a kind option due to her ignorance.

The recent lameness may have happened anyway or maybe it was what she was doing. I'll never know as she hides what she's doing.

Yes it probably does sound like I don't like my horse any more. I don't like what he has turned into. I got him in yesterday and he was scared of everything and I don't understand why. His behaviour was erratic.

I am tired of putting him back together again after someone who was supposed to be experienced has messed him up again. I did send him to an experienced and effective schooling yard to be sold a few years ago. It cost me £700 a month for 6 months. He was going fabulously and jumping 1m20 grids but there was no market for him at his age. In the end they found him a loan home for me and even that one went wrong.

I delayed a new job by over 2 months to stay behind and sort things out when a loan went wrong. I nearly lost the job and it made me very unpopular before I'd even started. He was my pride and joy but gradually he has become a noose and source of stress.

I'm going to get the vet to have a look and do a condition score and I'll go from there.
 
he'd not shown the lameness in the fore ever before this loan. Despite his disaster loans, after he'd come right each time he was a very sound horse.

Yes I do feel intimidated by it all. Also I feel bad for the horse and try not to upset the girl (she's late 30's) as she has said on many occasions that he's often the only thing that keeps her going.
 
Last edited:
I'm sorry if you've mentioned this elsewhere (I've had a look and can't see it...might be being blind) - did you watch the girl ride and handle him before agreeing to the loan?

I feel really sorry for this horse.
 
I have a very difficult horse who has tons of issues I took him on as no one else wanted him or could handle him. Like yours a hugely talented sports horse that was not happy on a pro yard who had his brains fried when they started to step up the work as a a youngster. As a result he is not 'safe' for anyone to ride bar me as he is a one to one horse. Knowing this I could not loan him or share him. He will spend his days with me. If you dont like the fact that someone is riding him differently then stump up the cash and get him back. To be honest be sounds like a nightmare to loan and he will keep coming back due to his issues as he is not easy.
You need to talk to her and sort it out he is your horse your resposibility. Such a same he sounds lovely. I dont mean to sound harsh but I know what happens to horses like him and its unfair as you took him on knowing all of this
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top