How to end another disaster loan

JammieJames said:
no he wasn't lame when she took him on as I wrote earlier, I had spent a year getting him right.
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Err, in your first post you said:

he wasn't ready for her to ride initially. It didn't come to light how inexperienced she was for a while as she talked the talk and he had to walk for over a month.
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Not lame maybe, but if he wasn't ready for her to ride when she got him, then he obviously wasn't right.

Your story seems to be changing by the minute - one minute she's taken on a horse that's virtually a crock that you can't afford and aren't able to do anything with - the next he's a fantastic allrounder that she has ruined with her inexperience.

It sounds to be honest like the buck stops with you. We're getting only your side of the story and you still sound at fault in this situation to me - god knows how it would sound if we had your loaner's side of things.
 
Apart from the fact, well acordding to your side the horse is lame, who knows how long for, and being really fat, what is the actual problem here. If the horse is in his late teens, not suitable for compitition anymore, what is wrong with him toodling round with the this girl allowing her to gain experience from and love him, or have I missed something. Yes she seems a bit inexperienced, again from your side, but has there actually been any dangerous events, accidents, injuries that would suggest they are in no way coping with each other, a bit of guidence and a look into the lameness would sort it out. Loving owners/loaners are hard to find, if he has one why not try and work with it to allow him to have a happy time in his late teens rather than PTS.
 
I feel really sorry for the horse and your loaner. The girl presumably has him on full loan and you're there putting your two-pennies worth in every few seconds.

If you were responsible you would have assessed the loaners abilities before loaning your horse out.

Obviously if the horse is lame the loaner should be getting the vet.

You've said that both the horse and loaner seem happy and it seems like sour grapes on your part as he's not being ridden in an outline etc.

Now you want to put the horse to sleep as you don't seem to think anyone else can look after him other than you and you're happy with your other horse.

Being depressed isn't an excuse for not taking responsibility for this horse.
 
As already said, you were the one who said she couldn't ride him initially & had to stay in walk for over a month. Hence the assumption he wasn't sound when you loaned him out. Listing what you have spent on him in the past is irrelevant, its what you sign up to when you take on a horse. Even if loaners in the past caused problems, I pity the horse for them but no sympathy for you. It shouldn't have happened once but to let it happen again shows you haven't bothered with your responsibility to check him.
 
This just doesn't make any sense.

How does a 17hh horse manage to put on shed loads of weight while on grass alone in February? :confused:

How does an owner who has decided on a loan to stay at present yard due to concerns about past loans then not really see the loanee riding or handling him? If you had concerns wouldn't you arrange to ride with the loanee, go down to watch on a day you know she will be riding, ask the yard owner to keep an eye out, seek out and speak to fellow liveries, etc?

How does a horse manage to not get put on a restricted diet when his owner has instructed it, and the horse is on the owner's own yard? After the second ignored instruction I would have sectioned off his field myself, and had very stern words.

How is someone who has taken themself off antidepressants without medical supervision, sure that their judgement is not being clouded by the recent sudden change in drug regime?

How, when you are on the same yard and you first noticed a weight problem in February, did you not notice how fat your horse was getting until now, 5 months later?

I'm sorry if I am coming across as harsh. We get a lot of trolls on HHO, and brand new users who say things that don't make sense are sometimes hard to believe.
 
It seems to me op, that there is an underlying problem with the horse, as you yourself have said you didn't get the vet out this time because the horse came right from rest last time, I am therefore assuming you didn't get the vet last time either. This horse needs a vet, and as his owner who has already stated you don't expect her to pay for this, why on earth are you waiting?! The horses napping and 'going about on two legs' seems far more likely under the circumstances to be due to a pain issue, as a responsible owner you should have thoroughly investigated this before loaning him out, as a responsible owner you should have checked, as a responsible owner you
Should have taken control of this a long time ago. And all this about 'the yo made us move onto a paddock which would only take one horse' well you knew that, where did you expect the girl to put your horse?! I couldn't feel more pity for this horse, and following that I actually feel sorry for the loaner, perhaps she does need guidance but you as an owner have been utterly negligent, and the buck stops with you, throughout the winter I go up to the yard after dark... I still see every horse up there every night, regardless of whether it is mine or not. Finally, yes you have depression, and it's very sad, but you do not use it as a viable reason for letting your horse develope a multitude of problems... It would seem to me that everyone yo, loaner and owner have failed this horse. There is a market for older horses who have experience in the competition field. If you won't do well by your horse, have it pts, I am quite sickened by this thread, you seem to pass the buck at every opportunity
 
I don't understand why everyone is being so hard on the OP. I don't think the story has changed. The horse wasn't lame when the loaner took it on, it was coming back into work. When OP said horse is on two legs in the arena I took that to mean rearing or bucking, from the way it was written. There's no reason why the horse couldn't be both a good all rounder in the right hands and a potentially dangerous nightmare in the wrong hands. I see no contradiction.

OP has a horse which they can't keep, partly finances and partly because its not the right horse for them handling/riding wise. That's not saying I think the OP is incompetent, I don't. But they have a horse they don't want. A difficult horse that is struggling to find a good home. OP has tried to sell and not found a buyer, has tried to loan and only had bad experiences. Yes I feel sorry for the horse (and OP) which is exactly why I'm suggesting that the responsible thing for OP to do is PTS. It's what the OP suggested themselves as the next step, so its not like I'm suggesting something they find abhorrent.

I wonder if some of you have endless pots of money for fixing up horses you've loaned out which have come back physically or behaviourally messed up. Or money for keeping a horse on full livery that you don't want to own, ride, or handle. It would have to be full livery if you didn't want to or were unable to care for the horse yourself.

Sure in an ideal world the horse would have a long and happy life. But its not an ideal world and I think PTS, since nobody has been found who will adequately care for the horse, is the next best thing. Isn't OP entitled to some quality of life too?
 
No, we dont all have endless pots of money, but we do tend to ensure that our horses are being properly cared for whether by ourselves or someone else. I also took the post to mean reading/bucking, which is why I mentioned a pain response, whatever the cause the horse is clearly not happy, possibly in pain and not being cared for appropriately, but as the op is the owner I'd ultimately lay the responsibility with the op.
 
Queenbee said:
No, we dont all have endless pots of money, but we do tend to ensure that our horses are being properly cared for whether by ourselves or someone else. I also took the post to mean reading/bucking, which is why I mentioned a pain response, whatever the cause the horse is clearly not happy, possibly in pain and not being cared for appropriately, but as the op is the owner I'd ultimately lay the responsibility with the op.
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+1

And no I certainly don't have an endless pot of money but while a horse is on loan I would be putting aside money as you can never guarantee they won't come back with no notice or that you'll have to remove them. If you can't afford the loan back (with or without problems) even temporarily then you shouldn't buy another in the process. I would also not be on the same yard as the loan and neglect to pick up on an issue for 5months!
 
Sugar_and_Spice said:
I wonder if some of you have endless pots of money for fixing up horses you've loaned out which have come back physically or behaviourally messed up. Or money for keeping a horse on full livery that you don't want to own, ride, or handle. It would have to be full livery if you didn't want to or were unable to care for the horse yourself.

no not endless pots of money but I would certainly have endless commitment to a horse who was finding life difficult through no fault of his own. Putting a horse to sleep simply because you have over horsed yourself is abhorrent to some people, including me. And saying a "horse you don't want to own" - well that horse never asked to be bought so the responsibility lay with the purchaser - and by responsibility I don't mean paying to have him put to sleep.
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Last I heard it wasn't necessary to have pots of cash to check on a horse you've put on loan. Certainly cheaper than what the op has said was spent putting him right after. Plus I think its somewhat snidey to loan to a novice because you're skint then come on a forum & slate them for novice mistakes.
 
Can't keep hush any longer.

this horse is a "noose" to you? That is the most horrendous thing I have heard for a while.

YOu are the owner yet you haven't called the vet? Disgraceful.
You are the owner who is at the same yard every day but you didn't notice the weight was so bad for 5 months . Disgraceful

In your OP you lay all the blame with the loaner and clearly don't think any of this is your fault or responsibility. Disgraceful

You are now self medicating your drugs . height of stupidity.

Open your eyes and act like an adult. STOP being so selfish towards this horse, loaner AND yourself my playing about with your drugs.

Lots will think I am being harsh but hey, I have been on medication for depression and know fine well it doesn't turn you into a 5 year old child. Your still an adult. I also check my horses every day which you should have done as you were at the same yard.

Do the horse a favour and hand it over to the loaner.

Off to sit in a dark room and calm down. if anyone wants to shoot me down in flames, feel free, I have not been this angry for quite some time over a post. And I am premenstrual. . .
 
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guido16 said:
Can't keep hush any longer.

this horse is a "noose" to you? That is the most horrendous thing I have heard for a while.

YOu are the owner yet you haven't called the vet? Disgraceful.
You are the owner who is at the same yard every day but you didn't notice the weight was so bad for 5 months . Disgraceful

In your OP you lay all the blame with the loaner and clearly don't think any of this is your fault or responsibility. Disgraceful

You are now self medicating your drugs . height of stupidity.

Open your eyes and act like an adult. STOP being so selfish towards this horse, loaner AND yourself my playing about with your drugs.

Lots will think I am being harsh but hey, I have been on medication for depression and know fine well it doesn't turn you into a 5 year old child. Your still an adult. I also check my horses every day which you should have done as you were at the same yard.

Do the horse a favour and hand it over to the loaner.

Off to sit in a ark room and calm down. if anyone wants to shoot me down in flames, feel free, I have not been this angry for quite some time over a post. And I am premenstrual. . .
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Thank you so much - you have saved me the trouble of typing out reams of stuff that will come across as being harsh/bullying/plain nasty etc. etc. I agree with every word and I don't often agree completely with anybody on here! :p
 
grumpyoldmare said:
Thank you so much - you have saved me the trouble of typing out reams of stuff that will come across as being harsh/bullying/plain nasty etc. etc. I agree with every word and I don't often agree completely with anybody on here! :p
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Same saved me writing it out also the girl must care about the horse because she bought him new tack and rugs at least shes trying.
 
Actually, I feel sorry for the OP too. She's got herself into a difficult situation where there's no happy or easy way out. She's also dealt civil-y with some of the very harsh replies and not a flounce in sight....... ;)

Some very contradictory replies: eithers she's cruel for not taking control and telling the loaner what to do, or she's interefering and not giving the loan a minutes peace. Can't be both!

As I see it, she had a horse she couldn't keep anymore more (for whatever reason : having to give up your horse is not uncommon or unreasonable). She tried to sell it but couldn't. She tried to loan it out and ended up being returned a messed up horse (a fate told many times on here, esp for quirky horses). Her other option would have been to abandon him or PTS! Yet now she's been called cruel and heartless for considering PTS. :rolleyes:

For this most recent loan, she was unable to keep the horse at the time (the whole reason she tried to sell him in the first place!) and therefore needed a good loaner for him ASA and very sensibly attempted to loan him close to home where she can keep an eye on him. That too has gone wrong.

Those on small livery yards may well not understand how you could manage not to see the horse for ages but having been a a huge yard, it's fairly easy! Many acres, multiple schools: I only met about 20 of the 100+ people on the large yard I was at for 6 months!! And only saw a 1/4 of the horses.

The loaner 'wrecking' the horse's behaviour through bad riding is more contentious: does it really matter if the loan is going to keep the horse? But if the OP is going to end up with the horse back one day I too would be well P'd off if a very well schooled, talented horse of mine was ruined! I'd then have to spend forever trying to undo it!

However letting the horse become lame and very fat without doing anything about it is neglectful on the loaners part. The OP sounds like she's been trying to fix it but, if the loaner won't listen, there's little the OP can do other than take the horse back. And then what does she do with him?! We've been over that already! From what I've read, the only thing the OP is guilt of is not being more forceful about making the loaner comply. As for 5months of 'not doing anything', if the grass is anything like mine, it'll only have been in the last month he'll have started to balloon: any 'fat warnings' before that I suspect were pre-emptive.

OP: you need to talk to this girl. And poss get the YO involved as he/she will have more control over grazing. To be honest, if the girl is happy to just keep him as a pet, there's no harm in that. Being fat and unfit isn't great but not the end of the world if he's not obese and laminitic.

If she wants to return him, I would prob have him PTS: he's lame and older and a difficult horse. He's been passed about loan horses that haven't worked for him and will prob just continue on the same vane. PTS may be the kindest option for him.
 
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so where did the 5 months come from? No it is a recent problem and I came on here for constructive advice as to what I should do. Some people have done that and I am grateful while others are getting a kick at my expense by twisting what I have said or not really reading it properly and supposing you understand.

I gave as much detail as I thought would help inform you to see what you would do in my place and it has been used as evidence aginst me. It's all very well saying it wouldn't happen to you and insulting me but it's not very helpful is it? I wanted to know what I should do next for the best, I already know what has gone wrong.

When he was on his previous loans I was checking him weekly to start with and as things went well it was a minimum of 2 months. You'd be surprised at just how badly things can go wrong in a couple of months, or even the next day. And what do you suppose I could have done about him being beaten up by the other horse? He was at a reputable establishment.

One minute I am being called interfering in this loan he's on now, the next I am called negligent. I have been happy that they were enjoying themselves for the most part but now it has gone wrong.

Would you give your horse to someone who is overfeeding it so that it is very obese to keep him quiet and now hardly spends any time with him?

Maybe one day something like this will happen to you and your horse and you will understand.
 
Kallibear said:
Actually, I feel sorry for the OP too. She's got herself into a difficult situation where there's no happy or easy way out. She's also dealt civil-y with some of the very harsh replies and not a flounce in sight....... ;)

Some very contradictory replies: eithers she's cruel for not taking control and telling the loaner what to do, or she's interefering and not giving the loan a minutes peace. Can't be both!

As I see it, she had a horse she couldn't keep anymore more (for whatever reason : having to give up your horse is not uncommon or unreasonable). She tried to sell it but couldn't. She tried to loan it out and ended up being returned a messed up horse (a fate told many times on here, esp for quirky horses). Her other option would have been to abandon him or PTS! Yet now she's been called cruel and heartless for considering PTS. :rolleyes:

For this most recent loan, she was unable to keep the horse at the time (the whole reason she tried to sell him in the first place!) and therefore needed a good loaner for him ASA and very sensibly attempted to loan him close to home where she can keep an eye on him. That too has gone wrong.

Those on small livery yards may well not understand how you could manage not to see the horse for ages but having been a a huge yard, it's fairly easy! Many acres, multiple schools: I only met about 20 of the 100+ people on the large yard I was at for 6 months!! And only saw a 1/4 of the horses.

The loaner 'wrecking' the horse's behaviour through bad riding is more contentious: does it really matter if the loan is going to keep the horse? But if the OP is going to end up with the horse back one day I too would be well P'd off if a very well schooled, talented horse of mine was ruined! I'd then have to spend forever trying to undo it!

However letting the horse become lame and very fat without doing anything about it is neglectful on the loaners part. The OP sounds like she's been trying to fix it but, if the loaner won't listen, there's little the OP can do other than take the horse back. And then what does she do with him?! We've been over that already! From what I've read, the only thing the OP is guilt of is not being more forceful about making the loaner comply. As for 5months of 'not doing anything', if the grass is anything like mine, it'll only have been in the last month he'll have started to balloon: any 'fat warnings' before that I suspect were pre-emptive.

OP: you need to talk to this girl. And poss get the YO involved as he/she will have more control over grazing. To be honest, if the girl is happy to just keep him as a pet, there's no harm in that. Being fat and unfit isn't great but not the end of the world if he's not obese and laminitic.

If she wants to return him, I would prob have him PTS: he's lame and older and a difficult horse. He's been passed about loan horses that haven't worked for him and will prob just continue on the same vane. PTS may be the kindest option for him.
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A post I consider to be right.
Hope OP takes note, and something constructive can be done that suits all.
 
Sorry OP but did you not think what was going to happen when your horse got old?? Surely you've got to think at some point that you need to take life long responsibility for the horse after he's past a certain age.. especially if he's difficult.

The fact that no one wants to own him should give you an indication that no one (unless desperate/skint) would want to loan him either!

You just make out that it's all a/b/c..... x/y/z's fault and it's not - it's yours!

I'm another one for thinking he'd be better of being fat with the girl than being shot with you. :-(
 
with laminitis? Then he'd be shot anyway.

Yes of course I thought about what happens when he gets old. All of these loans were supposed be permanent although nothing seems to be permanent I find. After the 2nd return I tried to sell him. His first loan had been highly successful except that it stopped, I had no reason to think another would fail.

Yes he's not your average horse, that's why I have a problem. I took him on as he was going to be pts due to being misunderstood. But I had sorted him out so that he was going well and was safe to deal with and ride. I had the long term in mind. I didn't know I was going to have an accident and not be able to deal with him.
 
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JammieJames said:
with laminitis? Then he'd be shot anyway.
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Then why not leave him where he is, then when he's shot you can blame the loaner for that as well. I totally agree with Guido, at the end of the day, he is yours, and your responsibility. You appear to have abdicated that responsibility when it has suited you, and now want to pass 100% of the blame to the loaner. Poor blooming horse!
Your throwaway comments about him being a noose, and him being shot anyway are pretty disgusting, he deserves more than that!
 
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So he is lame with laminitis now then? I thought you thought it was from cantering on hard ground??

He's probably not going to get it so he may as well take his chance if he's going to get PTS anyway!

Maybe we should start asking obese people if they want to be PTS - incase they have a heart attack.
 
Jammiejames..........why don,t you sign over your horse to the loaner.....if your horse was not being cared for..was being mistreated.....was obese and severely overweight...you can bet your bottom dollar gossip would be rife on your yard about it..........is anyone else concerned about him on your yard...have they been so worried the ILPH have been called...to be honest your post makes little sense and I find it confusing....how old are you...have you owned horses for a long time and had an older horse before?

.........look if you care for this horse ..believe its health is seriously at risk the answer to your question is a no brainer..you take your horse back now ..move yards and put right his weight issues and behaviour....that is your ultimate responsibility as his owner...or let the loaner get on with him herself..
 
If this was my horse this is what I would do...

I would sit the loaner down and say to her that the weight problem needs to be sorted out, she needs to start learning about nutrition and weight management. Then I would ask that she gets regular lessons.

(you probably also need to agree who pays for vets bills too as it seems to me that she expects you to pick these up)

BUT I would then say that if she does this and manages to keep things on an even keel over the summer (an agreed set amount of months) you will gift her the horse or sell it to her for a small amount

If the horse really is her everything then she will be willing to sort things out
 
JammieJames said:
so where did the 5 months come from? No it is a recent problem......
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I just wanted to point out where the 5 months comes from.

You said in your OP -

JammieJames said:
......Since then he has got really fat. I warned her in February to cut her field in half and she didn't. Then I warned her again in March not to let him get too fat. A month ago I said enough was enough he was way too fat, looked like a cart horse.
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and then,
JammieJames said:
Well today I got him in for a good look. He's so huge he's almost unrecognisable
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So the concern over his weight gain (and nothing being done to keep it in check) has been rumbling on since February this year. It's now June, so that's about 5 months, right?
 
Sorry, if this has been mentioned - but do you have a written agreement with the girl? If you do then use it to your advantage. If she is young enough, speak to her parents, they might not even be aware of whats going on. Does the loanee pay the livery?

Have you considered a college loan? Either someone in uni looking for a horse to call their own on the squad, or actually used in the college. Obviously the horse needs to be sound for which either the loanee, or yourself needs to pay for.

Of like others have said - pts. Far better than to string the whole thing out with no guarantee of any result either way. Also better than risk him getting lami (if he hasn't already).
 
Nugget La Poneh said:
Sorry, if this has been mentioned - but do you have a written agreement with the girl? If you do then use it to your advantage. If she is young enough, speak to her parents, they might not even be aware of whats going on. Does the loanee pay the livery?

Have you considered a college loan? Either someone in uni looking for a horse to call their own on the squad, or actually used in the college. Obviously the horse needs to be sound for which either the loanee, or yourself needs to pay for.

Of like others have said - pts. Far better than to string the whole thing out with no guarantee of any result either way. Also better than risk him getting lami (if he hasn't already).
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I read somewhere that the loaner is in her 30s
 
WelshD said:
If this was my horse this is what I would do...

I would sit the loaner down and say to her that the weight problem needs to be sorted out, she needs to start learning about nutrition and weight management. Then I would ask that she gets regular lessons.

(you probably also need to agree who pays for vets bills too as it seems to me that she expects you to pick these up)

BUT I would then say that if she does this and manages to keep things on an even keel over the summer (an agreed set amount of months) you will gift her the horse or sell it to her for a small amount

If the horse really is her everything then she will be willing to sort things out
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Well said...
Very good idea..
 
JammieJames said:
with laminitis? Then he'd be shot anyway.

Yes of course I thought about what happens when he gets old. All of these loans were supposed be permanent although nothing seems to be permanent I find. After the 2nd return I tried to sell him. His first loan had been highly successful except that it stopped, I had no reason to think another would fail.

Yes he's not your average horse, that's why I have a problem. I took him on as he was going to be pts due to being misunderstood. But I had sorted him out so that he was going well and was safe to deal with and ride. I had the long term in mind. I didn't know I was going to have an accident and not be able to deal with him.
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Nice to see you edited this to try to explain your actions. You had him sorted out? So obviously you know how to manage this horse. So why then did you not ensure that your present loaner was well aware of his management needs? And then ensure regularly that your instructions were being carried out?::mad: I don't see how you can blame someone else for your own shortcomings!
 
Sorry, I have no advice to offer, very naive of these situations. But I do hope you manage to sort something out. Tbh I'm seeing it from both sides. OP, you say she isn't spending much time with him anymore...? So why not just take him back anyway? Could you not just find a cheap, nice livery to keep him in retirement perhaps?
And just because I'm interested, why did loaner buy him a new saddle?
 
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