How to gate price of cardento foal please!!

[gadetra]

What you have in that filly is a nice bit of what our thoroughbred friends would refer to as "black type" in the damline.
Even if she never competes and just goes breeding at 3, it's still a strong damline and the odds of producing successful competition horses from her are stacked in your favour.
If any foal isn't making 3x the stud fee plus expenses until weaning as a guide price, then you're as well as off just lining up the mares and shooting them.

It's illogical to brush aside the statistical advantage that has been proven to come from stronger damlines.
The argument that Frank Sinatra could sing, but could his brother? Just absolutely does not get a look in with me!!

The mare is the biggest part of the breeding equation. By some distance. The end! That they are not as valued in the equation as much as the stallion, certainly in terms of their own performance never ceases to amaze me. A foal out of a mare of this calibre with a PROVEN INTERNATIONAL RECORD has to be worth a few bob! If not what is?!!

Hi everyone
Im new to this forum and think these things can be usefull when used in the correct way?
However I feel I have no choice but to give a response to this current situation as I have a four star select mare called Kalifa de La Creek who is by le tot de semilly X starter and has a filly foal by cardento, now at this stage I must say that no one has been to see this foal in the flesh so therefore cannot comment on how it moves etc!!! But seeming as Ireland is a small I presume its my foal this discussion is about. Now im not going to hide behind fake names like ie Jalisco!!
the dam in question as I have stated to "Jalisco" has won at five star international shows not just jumped two double clears at 1.35m at three star shows! and im sorry but last yr I broke my leg and dislocated my ankle in five different places last year,I was in cast for twelve weeks and told I would probably not ride again etc, in my first yr back might I add on two home bred horses who are from a 3 star select mare have had the winner of the stepping stones final and his half sister jumped in the two ruby qualifiers (1.20m 5 yr old 10,000 euro champ) double clear both days but not qualifying these are the only homebred horses of competition age , I find it very offencive that I have worked this hard and my horses are achieving results, most of my mares have preformed to a high level themselves or are from a good preformance family, so you could imagine my dissappointment at when Im trying to do things the correct way and often working from 6am to after 10pm at reading an article from someone saying my horses arent worth 1000euro!! but to state again NO ONE HAS BEEN TO SEE MY CARDENTO FILLY FOAL, and I TOLD THE PERSON NUMEROUS TIMES WHAT THE MARE HAD WON IN THE RING!

Good luck with your foal, she will be a great addition to any paddock.


(*ETA on a completely side note, seeing Flexible's full sister at the RDS made me want to kidnap her and put her in foal! Has she had any ET foals does anyone know? Or natural offspring? Talk about blacktype! Now there's a mare I would like in my field!)

 

[sport horse]

I am surprised by the people who think they can go into Europe and buy the best fillies for a few thousand pounds.

As part of my own breeding operation I have travelled some of the biggest show jumping studs searching for good filly foals. The breeders will not even put a price on the best as they keep them for their own breeding operations! Time after time we walked into a field of say 20 filly foals and several were pointed out with prices. When we asked about the one or two that really caught the eye we were without exception told ' that one is not for sale we are retaining it for our breeding'.

We have managed to collect some really nice bloodlines, produce the mares to jump up to a minimum of 1.40 themselves to be good enough for my breeding operation, mate them to the best and hope for the best. As a breeder it always pays to buy the very best you can afford rather than fill your fields with average quality.

 

[HBM1]

And therein lies the problem of giving too much information on an open forum, and then being rude about the seller's stock. Just because a person is not willing to pay a price for a foal, that does notat all mean the foal is not worth more.
People want the top bloodlines, have aspirations of jumping GrandPrix etc, but are not willing to pay. No need to be rude about the horses on an open forum though. Eg "not being worth a thousand".

 

[no_no_nanette]

And therein lies the problem of giving too much information on an open forum, and then being rude about the seller's stock. Just because a person is not willing to pay a price for a foal, that does notat all mean the foal is not worth more.
People want the top bloodlines, have aspirations of jumping Grand Prix etc, but are not willing to pay. No need to be rude about the horses on an open forum though. Eg "not being worth a thousand".

I'm very glad that the breeder came on here to present the accurate picture, and has, as he says, worked incredibly hard to breed the very best only to find his foal and her dam misrepresented and denigrated. I think that the prices the the OP quotes for top bloodline foals on the continent are pure fantasy. It really is about time that myths about picking up super star foals from Europe or anywhere else for a song are stamped on. Its incredibly damaging for breeders, who time and again come on these forums to give the real picture of how much it costs to put a mare in foal to a quality stallion and then raise the foal, let alone make a profit - and still there are posts raising expectations of being able to pick up a highly bred youngster for under £1500.

 

[ihatework]

I'm very glad that the breeder came on here to present the accurate picture, and has, as he says, worked incredibly hard to breed the very best only to find his foal and her dam misrepresented and denigrated. I think that the prices the the OP quotes for top bloodline foals on the continent are pure fantasy. It really is about time that myths about picking up super star foals from Europe or anywhere else for a song are stamped on. Its incredibly damaging for breeders, who time and again come on these forums to give the real picture of how much it costs to put a mare in foal to a quality stallion and then raise the foal, let alone make a profit - and still there are posts raising expectations of being able to pick up a highly bred youngster for under £1500.

The only highly bred foal you'll pick up on the continent for £1500 is one with a wonky leg or that looks and moves like a part bred camel. They breed in bulk, and there will naturually always be a % of crud that needs shifting at a loss.

Was at auction a couple of weeks ago - minimum bid was 3K, all bar a handful of circa 250 sold at minimum bid. Vast majority were higher than minimum bid, 10-15% were probably 10K+ and there were a handful at 20K+. Think top lot was 46K. The breeders were commenting on how low prices are this year.

(And bear in mind this was August and those entered up were the ones that hadn't sold privately for decent money beforehand ...)

 

[Spring Feather]

We live in different worlds!!

Alec.

Well to that Alec I'd have to say "and thank goodness we do!" :smile3:

Closely followed up by "Why?" Why are top quality foals in the UK/Ireland selling for such low sales prices? What is the point of breeding such high calibre foals if there is little interest from the UK/Irish buying public in paying a fair price for them?

I agree with the other breeders commenting above, that buying the best broodmares you can afford is critical to the future success of any horse breeding business. The foal being commented on in this thread is an exceptionally well-bred foal and to suggest it should be sold for £1,000 is pretty insulting to her breeder. I would, however, be very interested to see the bloodlines of these supposed fillies in Europe that OP says are selling for peanuts (heck I might even be interested in importing some of them at those prices! :biggrin3: ). I try to keep my finger on the pulse and have a number of breeder friends in Germany and none are advertising and selling their foals for peanuts so where are all these cheapies?

 

[brownswiss]

Jalisco or what ever your name really is..... Is this true?

.....

I think Jalisco is gone underground...

Are people that naive that they think they can post such detailed foal info ( and the foal being of such a high calibre ) and that it not be obvious to most on here who the breeder in question is....

I really think a big apology is the very least that is required.

Jalisco obviously was well aware of the high value of the foal in question but wants it for the price of the service.

It shows a lot of arrogance and very little empathy with breeders to post some of what you wrote.

 

[Eoghan]

Wel said Brownswiss I don't think they will thouth I'm still interested seeming as they were so dismissive of his stock, what exactly they have that is so superior!!
I think Jalisco is gone underground...

Are people that naive that they think they can post such detailed foal info ( and the foal being of such a high calibre ) and that it not be obvious to most on here who the breeder in question is....

I really think a big apology is the very least that is required.

Jalisco obviously was well aware of the high value of the foal in question but wants it for the price of the service.

It shows a lot of arrogance and very little empathy with breeders to post some of what you wrote.[/QUOTE]

 

[niamh]

Difference as a buyer I'm realistic and couldn't justify as Alex said to spend that on just breeding alone. I'm a actually trying to make money and make realistic investments for the future of my business ;-)) thanks

So your "business" consists in putting breeders out of theirs? you're expecting the breeder to lose money on his carefully bred foal so that you are not put in a position to maybe make less than 10k profit on it in a few years? (or maybe you already have a buyer lined up, with an immediate gain of several thousands)


There are dozens of feathered cob foals on donedeal for 300€ or less. Maybe that's what you should look at. I doubt anyone who breeds top bloodlines hasn't already figured that they themselves can sell the products as 3 or 4 yo into the english market and make the big profit themselves. (and if they make a loss, it's no less than the loss you're offering them now, so only a congenital idiot would accept such a bargain).


Everything is for sale in Ireland. It's the nature of the country. It doesn't mean most people are "desperate" to sell. Too many average animals have been historically overpriced, but that is no reason to underprice a genuine good quality bloodline. Anyway if the breeder had sold this filly to you at this ludicrous price, it would only mean one thing, and that there is something wrong with it and you've been had.

 

[Spring Feather]

Wel said Brownswiss I don't think they will thouth I'm still interested seeming as they were so dismissive of his stock, what exactly they have that is so superior!!

Hmm I'm not so convinced Jalisco really is dismissive of your stock. I think perhaps it might just be a case of sour grapes because she can't afford to pay a realistic price for a superbly bred future broodmare?

 

[brownswiss]

How much more dismissive would you like her to be ... here is a quote from one of her posts ... "I agree Alex- finally someone who think relatively speaking. The buyer would not sell for less than 5000 or any where near that even though he has a good 30 animals to get rid of and some that I have seen would not make 1000 let alone 10000!"......

Not only dismissive bet extremely insulting.....

We await her apology..

 

[Spring Feather]

She wrote that, however she may not truly mean that. Hence my sour grapes comment :wink3:

 

[shirleyno2]

Goodness, this post has made me laugh, you're all jesting yes????
I'm still looking at 4 mares to breed for next year, I hope they will be worth more than 2k!!!!!

 

[HBM1]

I am so glad more breeders of quality foals in this country are now hanging on to them to produce through themselves. As mentioned, under saddle they will make much more money. Why should any breeder spend around £5000 or more to get a top notch foal on the ground just so someone with pie in the sky ideas of what they should have to pay can come along and offer £1500?? 8 years ago I bought a beautifully bred filly foal for £3500. People expect to pay less than that now. Tell me, if you want a brand new car, would you be expecting to pay less now than 8 years ago?

I think one of the problems is, some people don't really have a clue what it takes to breed, so much sacrifice and commitment and then wonder why breeders get angry when they turn down a snivelling offer for their foals. I for one am keeping my foals to bring on myself now, they may turn out to not have the talent I am hoping for, but at least that will be my loss - no way I am giving away a foal to go make someone else money as a four year old thanks.

 

[Alec Swan]

How much more dismissive would you like her to be ... here is a quote from one of her posts ... "I agree Alex- finally someone who think relatively speaking. The buyer would not sell for less than 5000 or any where near that even though he has a good 30 animals to get rid of and some that I have seen would not make 1000 let alone 10000!"......

Not only dismissive bet extremely insulting.....

We await her apology..

I suspect that the OP was responding to my comments, and considering the information which was available, at the time, I stand by my general observations in that we're living in straitened times, and that foals simply aren't selling for the money that they were 3 years ago, and we all whinged long and loud then, and that was before a further downturn in the market! I'd also still rather spend serious money on a 2 yo than a foal, and I'll stand by that, too!

richie o'Hara, my comments weren't and aren't in any way intended to denigrate your foal, and following on from your explanatory post regarding the dam's success, there's no question but that you have every chance of having an exceptional prospect on your hands.

Those who have a waiting list of people who want to buy their foals, and they continue to ride the crest of a wave, I applaud you. Not everyone's so fortunate that they maintain a market place which is unchanged for them.

Alec.

 

[FionaM12]

Wow this thread is a good read.

People do need to realise that HHO is a high profile site, and if you write something which is traceable to a particular horse (or foal in this case) seller or breeder etc, someone will spot it.

I'm sure the OP thought they were safe because they didn't give every detail (I think they held back the name of the dam) but clearly it's a small world. :wink3:

I guess the OP won't be buying that foal now?

 

[richie o'Hara]

I wouldnt say that, I still find it very strange that jalisco would say they had seen the foal etc,etc when they hadnt!! Still though seeming as most of my stock isnt worth 1000e ill have to be open to offers!!!

 

[Zero00000]

Awkward!!!

Sounds a lovely filly, hope if you decide to sell she finds a home to fulfill her hopefully promising future

 

[brownswiss]

as can be seen below jalisco was on here tonight and did not see fit to apologise for her derogatory comments on the value of a forum members foals....
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[FionaM12]

as can be seen below jalisco was on here tonight and did not see fit to apologise for her derogatory comments on the value of a forum members foals....
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I should think she's somewhat embarrassed. :redface3:

 

[gadetra]

I wouldnt say that, I still find it very strange that jalisco would say they had seen the foal etc,etc when they hadnt!! Still though seeming as most of my stock isnt worth 1000e ill have to be open to offers!!!

Lol :lol: . I would be steaming if someone did what Jalisco did to me. You have the patience of a saint!

ETA oh and embarassed or not Jalisco owes Ritchie an apology. If you do wrong you stand up and apologise if your any sort of a person at all.

 

[brownswiss]

I should think she's somewhat embarrassed. :redface3:

..

I hope you are right Fiona...BUT having read what she put down in writing for the World to read I am afraid she may not posses that emotion.

 

[brownswiss]

Jalisco..
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I BET SHE IS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Eoghan]

Hey jalisco
seeming are you are such, an experianced horse person, and you know the business so well. would you like to enlighten everyone on the forum! On the questions that have been put to you?

 

[Spring Feather]

Although I do feel the same as everyone else, that Jalisco should return to this thread to apologise to Richie O'Hara/Eoghan, perhaps it's becoming rather daunting for her to do that now?

 

[gadetra]

Although I do feel the same as everyone else, that Jalisco should return to this thread to apologise to Richie O'Hara/Eoghan, perhaps it's becoming rather daunting for her to do that now?

You do the crime...
I think it is very low to insult someone's stock on a public forum, wrongly, get caught out lying, and not bother to stand up and apologise/face the music. It is the decent and right thing to do. Not to do so is low and cowardly in my opinion.

 

[Spring Feather]

You do the crime...
I think it is very low to insult someone's stock on a public forum, wrongly, get caught out lying, and not bother to stand up and apologise/face the music. It is the decent and right thing to do. Not to do so is low and cowardly in my opinion.

Oh I agree totally! I don't know why she doesn't tbh, HHO is a pretty forgiving place and apologies are normally very well received.