How to make 'that decision'

[Jo1987]

I know there have been quite a few of these posts, so I applogise. Just need some opinions from people who won't just try to tell me what they think I want to hear.

I'll try to keep it short - Pony is 25, I've had him for 15 years, he's been retired 5. He is the love of my life but last summer his age started to catch up with him, his back legs are very stiff, he came reasonably sound on turmeric but now it's getting colder he's obviously lame when he trots over for his tea and on a circle but ok in walk.

I don't believe in giving bute just to keep an old horse field sound, my concern about that is that if I put him on bute indefinitely, where does it end? 2 sachets a day, 3? Until he becomes so infirm that it becomes an emergency decision? I have seen that happen more than once and I always said it wouldn't happen to mine.

However now that it's come to it, it doesn't feel right to PTS going into winter. He is at the point that he needs proper pain relief though, so vet will be called tomorrow and will obviously discuss this with them.

My question is, does it seem reasonable to keep him comfortable on bute or similar through the winter so he can have a last summer and PTS before next winter? Am I being silly, should I just let him go now, or am I being too harsh?

I am just starting to dread him deteriorating further and don't want to see him suffering - he's had 25 years of good health and I'm not sure if keeping him going now is for my sake or his. He has been a good friend to me and I just want to do the right thing for him.

That wasn't very short after all, sorry! Thanks if you made it to the end, just need to start talking/thinking about it I think.

 

[Orangehorse]

Can he get up and down easily? I think that is the "time." A local old dealer had some really ancient horses and ponies around, mostly that had been successful competition horses for his family, and he always said that if a horse can't get up and down without a struggle it is the time to say goodbye. He believed that it was stressful for them if they are stuck and helpless.

 

[bonny]

If he's easy to keep and happy with his life then I would just let him potter on....old age comes to us all and in my opinion is not a reason to shoot a horse unless either you don't want him anymore or he's really going downhill...

 

[be positive]

He may benefit from just a week on bute to get him more comfortable for now then gradually reduce and cut it out, it may be that once he starts moving better he will feel more able to move more and the stiffness will reduce.
I don't think it fair to use high dosage to keep them sound for the sake of the owner, not suggesting that you are in any way considering this, but I do think it right to give a week or two on 1 or 2 a day to see if that helps, if it does not then you should find it easier to know what to do, it is never an easy decision to make and you do not need to rush, if he is still happy enough trotting over for his feed he is obviously still bright and well even if he is lame so it is not causing him too much pain at the moment.

 

[Speedyfluff]

I don't see why he shouldn't have the benefit of one or even two bute to enable him to continue to enjoy his retirement. If he is perky and well in all other respects, it is the kindest thing to do to give him a bute a day to take the edge off. There are millions of people on daily pain killers enjoying fulfilling lives. Obviously, if the bute does not agree with him, then that is a different kettle of fish. I would not be thinking of PTS unless he cannot be made comfortable. One bute a day is absolutely fine. You just need to decide before hand what your limit is. It may just be one, or it might be two. Any more than that and I would be thinking of PTS but not if he is made comfortable on one or two.

 

[ihatework]

It's a very emotive subject and one I often feel is not really best discussed on a forum - the reason being you will get the whole spectrum of responses, some of which will lay a guilt trip on you that you don't really need to read at this stage.

The fact of the matter is you have kept your loved horse 5 years into retirement - for that reason alone I don't think anyone could accuse you of 'getting rid' as soon as the horse has no purpose. Furthermore you are acutely aware from what you have written that you don't want to keep a suffering horse alive for your own purpose. Therefore you will know when the time is right. Trust your gut on this.

On the subject of bute I'm in the 'pro bute' camp. Firmly. At a low daily dose it will decrease creakiness that is inevitable with old age and improve quality of life.

I know what you are going through as I have one approaching the grey area myself. I suspect next year will be mines last, and I know I'm likely to send him on his way earlier than many people would. But I have seen far too many old horses looking utterly miserable while their owners wear rose tinted specs.

 

[Tiddlypom]

If he's easy to keep and happy with his life then I would just let him potter on....old age comes to us all and in my opinion is not a reason to shoot a horse unless either you don't want him anymore or he's really going downhill...

You don't get any more tactful in these threads, do you?

OP, remember that the horse won't care if you PTS now or in a year, he's living in the here-and-now. Whether on bute or not, he should be happy and free moving. I'd trial the bute, and if he's still stiff and lame, you will know the answer.

 

[bonny]

You don't get any more tactful in these threads, do you?

OP, remember that the horse won't care if you PTS now or in a year, he's living in the here-and-now. Whether on bute or not, he should be happy and free moving. I'd trial the bute, and if he's still stiff and lame, you will know the answer.

I don't really see the need to be tactful, someone asks about their horse daily on here and everyone jumps in with the same replies. If anyone wants to have their horse put down then obviously that's up to them and as non of us know the horse involved what can we really say that helps make the decision. We've all heard the better a day too soon than too late type of comments over and over, it's meaningless when faced with parting with an old friend and part of making the decision has to be about living with the guilt afterwards. From what's written here, I don't see why this horse can't live for another year or so but then like I said I don't know him. Old age alone should not have to mean the end of the line....

 

[Maesfen]

Can he get up and down easily? I think that is the "time." A local old dealer had some really ancient horses and ponies around, mostly that had been successful competition horses for his family, and he always said that if a horse can't get up and down without a struggle it is the time to say goodbye. He believed that it was stressful for them if they are stuck and helpless.

This exactly. They feel very vulnerable if they can't get up or move easily, it can't be a happy time for them.

I would hate to keep something that was dodgy on their feet/joints and find them one day unable to get up so that it becomes an emergency with all the upset that causes them. I would far prefer to say goodbye on my terms, not as an emergency when there isn't any other choice.

Also, TBH, something that is creaky will find summer with hot weather and rock hard ground as much trouble as cold and wet so the 'give him one more summer' isn't actually doing any favours to them at all, only yourself.

 

[Jo1987]

Thanks for the replies, it has helped to put it in perspective for me, I am just very keen to make sure I'm doing the right thing for him, and have perhaps been a bit clinical as a result.

 

[meesha]

My old mare was booked in to go but I chatted to the vet prior and we cancelled pts and have her on 2 bute a day, she is much more comfortable and vet is happy that as long as she is bright, top of the herd as normal, holding weight, can get up and down OK and managing in walk she can continue on 2 bute, gave her 4 a day for a couple of days then dropped to 2 which for her apparently is maintenance dose. Many people take ibuprofen or similar regularly!! I am using the tiny sachets of bute 100 per box and about £65 from vet, cheaper than the bute which is meant to be more palatable (mare actually prefers supposedly non palatable ones)..

 

[Tobiano]

I agree this is a terribly emotional and personal decision, and nobody can criticise you OP for whatever you decide. But I have a 14 YO horse in work on 1 or 2 bute a day and I suppose I'd say if I am prepared to keep him in work on 2 bute a day then I should be prepared to keep him retired on the same, if he needed it. He is perfectly happy and comfortable - which is really the test in my opinion. You know your pony OP, you decide on what you see in front of you. Hope all goes well for you both

 

[Jo1987]

Thanks all, will get him on one bute a day I think and see how he goes.
Hopefully he will be comfortable on that for a while longer, I am just shocked by how quickly he is starting to show his age - he is my first pony and has always been so healthy and full of life, part of me wants to do everything I can to keep him with me, and part of me wants to let him go before he completely loses his spark.

 

[mandyroberts]

My boy is 24 and has been on Dannilon for at least 2 years. I started off at half a sachet a day with the odd week on 1 / day. He has been on 1 a day for about 9 months, is still very perky, canters round field and seems to enjoy life. I can see he is stiff but if he can have a good whizz round field I think he is happy. I will say he is 16.3 so 1 sachet isn't much and I will go to 2 sachets - but worry if he needs 3. I agree they need to be able to lie down and get up - it is a bit of a heave ho for him but he is far from being stuck on the floor! Usually thet stop lieing down - he is filthy every morning so definitely happy have a snooze in his stable.

 

[tashcat]

I am in the mindset of keeping him going as long as possible, but you seem to know him best and if its time its time.

If it were me, I'd be asking my vet whether it was plausible to keep him going, and what that would entail (i.e. he might have a solution you hadn't thought of rather than bute etc).

Its not a nice situation to be in, and I hope you are ok.

 

[Equi]

Better a day too early than a day too late. Poor you having to make this decision though. It's always easier when it is an emergency isn't it

 

[Jo1987]

Thanks for your thoughts everyone, he was worse than usual today and I think I've probably overreacted and a low dose of bute or something similar will mean he's able to carry on for a good while yet.
I'm just keen to avoid a situation I've seen a few times before - owners trying to keep a horse going too long and ending up with an emergency. It's hard to watch a childhood friend grow old!

 

[maree t]

Can I ask how much Turmeric you are giving ? One of mine has a cup full a day . You can increase quite a lot from the standard start amount . Might be worth upping the dose alongside the bute for a bit and see how it goes . Sorry if I am telling you wht you already knew.
Wish you all the best x

 

[Jo1987]

Yes might be worth giving him some more turmeric, he's 13hh but I'm giving him the recommended amount for horses rather than ponies. It really helped him and perked him up through the summer but it doesn't seem to be doing much for him now.

 

[maree t]

We have a very light weight 13hh games pony that is on a cup full a day . He has had a hard life but is still out competing . that amount with micronised lnseed and loads of pepper keeps him bouncing around . If it is normal strength T then keep upping the dose until you notice a difference . Hope it helps

 

[madmav]

Just wanted to say I feel for you. I'm having same dilemma with an ancient dog. One day he's awful and I think OK, it's time. Then he rallies and is back to skipping around the place. It is such a hard call to make...Best of luck to you and your pony.

 

[Natch]

Thanks for your thoughts everyone, he was worse than usual today and I think I've probably overreacted and a low dose of bute or something similar will mean he's able to carry on for a good while yet.
I'm just keen to avoid a situation I've seen a few times before - owners trying to keep a horse going too long and ending up with an emergency. It's hard to watch a childhood friend grow old!

I'd challenge you on why you are averse to bute? It's not a situation where you're going to make an injury get worse by covering the pain, you're talking about keeping a retired pony pain-free. If bless him he doesn't have that many years left in him the issues associated with long term bute use won't arise, but it will mean he has a comfortable potential few years ahead of him.

I don't think there's anything wrong with having him PTS now if you think it's time, but what I'm reading is that you don't think it's time, you just don't like bute because of what other people did. You are not those people, and it sounds as if you are so sensitive to what happened with them that there's no way you're going to allow it to happen in your case. x

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

You say he's lost his spark a bit. That could be because he's in pain. If he was mine I'd bute him up with enough to make a difference, drop to a lower dose and see if that's enough. I see no need to PTS at this point. Though I'd not judge you badly if you did.

 

[Optimissteeq]

Hi,
I'm not sure if this is the latest 'trend' but my vet recommended Previcox for my two oldies as an alternative to bute. It's used to ease pain in arthritics dogs apparently and I have seen some good results after giving it to my two boys. I only give 1/4 tablet each day per horse and I can see no adverse reactions such as an upset tummy which can happen on bute. It's also a lot cheaper than bute as well in the long run.
just a thought anyway and I'd certainly want to be giving him something to make him more comfortable.
Hope this helps x

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

I am going to give you my personal experience with my mare and other animals in my care.

My mare went stiff at quite a young age and vet said after many tests and exams that she needed to go on bute for life, I have always been anti giving bute without joint supplement as I fear like a car, bone on bone without oil will wear bone out more. I decided to use Cortiflex which we did with good results but at £ 50 per month it was pricey.


So I carried on my research and found Equimins - so I rang them, and David suggested Flexi Joint - so he went through my mares details - work and regime-supplements etc. He told me the dosage is lower for Flexi Joint and the cost is lower than cortiflex. I told him she was still on bute so he told me, “if you have lubrication you don’t have pain, if you don’t have pain you dont need painkillers”.

I thanked him and ordered some direct from them and when I got it and started on it a week later I started to lower my mares bute down as she as on one am and one pm. To cut a long story short I got her down to one every other day then every 2 days and so on till one week without bute she was still sound and running round like the others. We did a sponsored ride a month later and she was very hard to hold back.
This is my personal story.

I have livery horses on it some of who the trainers could not believe the difference and the owners said they were on F-J. MY dog was on it as were my donkey all of whom were better on it.

I have much feedback from previous H&H members who tried it and it helped. I did buy some Tumeric at Hickstead but all this mixing with oil etc. I could not be bothered and F_J was working so why change, so I sold it.


I hope you find something to help your wee guy, so in your situation I would get a small pot of Flexi Joint to try and money back if it does not work.

Back to the bute I think a low dose of bute is acceptable to keep a horse happy and and able to enjoy retirement, after all how many humans take Ibuprofen and other strong meds to keep pain away.

Here is a direct link to the reviews on Flexi Joint from members of H&H under Arthritis or J for joints. http://horse-care-and-advice.weebly.com/a.html.

Months later after the first and second - third vet visit we had a follow up on her condition and vet said she looked amazing and sound and fit. I said she was off bute and on Flexi Joint and they just had their mouth open in disbelief. Well she looks amazing was all they could say

 

[fatpiggy]

I don't really see the need to be tactful, someone asks about their horse daily on here and everyone jumps in with the same replies. If anyone wants to have their horse put down then obviously that's up to them and as non of us know the horse involved what can we really say that helps make the decision. We've all heard the better a day too soon than too late type of comments over and over, it's meaningless when faced with parting with an old friend and part of making the decision has to be about living with the guilt afterwards. From what's written here, I don't see why this horse can't live for another year or so but then like I said I don't know him. Old age alone should not have to mean the end of the line....

But the OP isn't saying that his old-age is his problem - its the conditions that COME with old-age that are the problems, and she doesn't necessarily want to face the do I don't I situation of raising the dose of painkillers a bit further down the line. Being tactful isn't about stroking someone's ego, its about listening to them, judging their mood and then helping in a way that you think they can take - and you can't really do that if you aren't face to face and know them personally.

OP, I think you have two choices, jump now and PTS or try the drugs and see how he responds. The next factor to take into consideration is the potential weather. However well the drug works in making him pain-free, how well is he going to cope with a torrentially wet, deep mud winter, or the heavy snow that the long-range forecasters are warning about due to El Nino and iron-hard frozen mud? When I made the decision about my rising 30year old with chronic and worsening arthritis and lowish level Cushings plus the problems of age such as wobbly and lost teeth, failing eyesight and hearing, it was because I walked her down the lane to a field with some decent grass on in the early spring and she slipped slightly on the tarmac and face-planted the road because her severely arthritic knees couldn't accommodate the slip quickly enough. She was hurt and got up ok, but at that moment I decided that it was the end of the road. I did give her the summer and quite dramatically raised her painkillers as I had nothing to lose, and by the autumn her legs were all causing her problems in that she couldn't hold them up for more than a few seconds for me to trim her hooves. My biggest fear was that she was going to go over in the mud, again because of her knees, and not be able to get herself up again. I would never have forgiven myself if she had died in the cold wet mud. She was happy enough in herself but in the last few weeks steadily lost a considerable amount of weight so I have no doubt something was going on inside. I chose to have her PTS before the weather worsened and before the next Bonfire Night as she was terrified by fireworks. I selected the week and then watched the weather forecast and chose the day that was likely to be the driest. If that all sounds a bit clinical, then yes it probably was, but it helped me by knowing that I was making the best of a bad job for her.

Hope that helps a bit! You are welcome to PM me if you want.

 

[Jo1987]

Thanks fatpiggy, sorry to hear about your mare. I am worried about the winter, I am worried that he'll fall and won't be able to get up. His hearing and eyesight is failing like your mare, and like her he struggles to hold his feet up for the farrier. I am afraid he will get into a scrap with field mates and not be able to move away quickly enough. I don't want him gone, far from it, but he is a horse, not a person or a small pet, and getting old must be very frightening for a prey animal.
I don't think bonny was being tactless really, I asked for honest opinions in order to help me make the right choice. All of the replies have helped me do that so thank you to everyone.
Vet is coming tomorrow and I'll discuss the suggestions you've all given me, hopefully I'll be able to get him comfortable and it's not as bad as I first thought!

 

[fatpiggy]

Thanks fatpiggy, sorry to hear about your mare. I am worried about the winter, I am worried that he'll fall and won't be able to get up. His hearing and eyesight is failing like your mare, and like her he struggles to hold his feet up for the farrier. I am afraid he will get into a scrap with field mates and not be able to move away quickly enough. I don't want him gone, far from it, but he is a horse, not a person or a small pet, and getting old must be very frightening for a prey animal.
I don't think bonny was being tactless really, I asked for honest opinions in order to help me make the right choice. All of the replies have helped me do that so thank you to everyone.
Vet is coming tomorrow and I'll discuss the suggestions you've all given me, hopefully I'll be able to get him comfortable and it's not as bad as I first thought!

Yes, my girl was being increasingly bullied by the other horses, especially the new ones. They quickly cottoned on that she was blind on one side and would deliberately trap her against the fence so that she couldn't see to escape, not that she could make a quick getaway anyway. It must have been very hard for her as she had always been head honcho and was very caring and gentle with everyone. She could command discipline simply be pulling faces and swishing her tail, and they all stepped back into line without arguing.

Ask you vet for honest advice. When mine came on THE day, he thanked me for putting my horse first and wished other people could find it in themselves to do the same.

ps. I used Metacam for pain relief. Expensive but palatable, easily administered and very effective for arthritis. Buy on line and save money.

 

[smja]

I would have an honest discussion with your vet. It is better to think things through now, before the weather/field conditions get too bad, but it's really something that only you can answer.

I have seen a much loved elderly pony being nursed through a winter until one day getting stuck in the mud and having to be PTS, and I've also seen someone make that decision for their elderly pony who was having a true Indian summer, he looked just as he did 5 years younger but he had really struggled in the previous winter.
I am lucky enough that I've not yet had to make that choice, but I know which pony I would have preferred to be.