How to ride...

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weasel27

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Ok, so I'm interested in people's opinions.

I know that everyone rides differently, but I am forever hearing from instructors/books/on here etc that the only way to achieve a true outline and make a horse use its back end properly is by using leg, leg, leg.

Obviously some horses need more leg than others, but here are my questions.

If using the leg creates a good outline (leg to hand and all that) then how come so many horses work brilliantly on the lunge and with training aids (obviously no leg involved!).

Also, contrary to the leg, leg, leg theory, many classical riders and instructors also say that the leg shouldn't be overused (no nagging) and the horse should maintain impulsion and speed without the leg on and the leg should be used for transitions, bend, changes in tempo etc.

And if the leg should always be used, how do we stop horses being dead to the leg?

Thanks for reading...
 
I'm no dressage rider, I school my horses to go how I like to ride them- IE theyre very light off the aids and very balanced. Therefore I use my leg minimally, preferring to ride off my seat. The leg is used to aid straightness and during lateral work but I dont like to use it to get more forwards momentum other than as a sharp kick now and then to shake a lazy horse off it.

In theory you can create all the impulsion you need through your seat so why work over-time and exhaust yourself?!

But again, I'm not a dressage rider
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Leg leg leg should really be forward forward forward. A well schooled horse should maintain the pace/impulsion on its own. Green horse will need more encouragement but again leg should not be used every stride. Rather it should be applied then immediately released when horse responds. Only be reapplied if horse backs off. Schooling whip is often used in this scenario to avoid over use of leg.
For lunging the whip replaces the leg.
 
In the perfect world you ask once with the lightest of aids and the horse does what you ask until you tell it to stop. You shouldn't have your leg on constantly, just look at Blue Circle Boy and Lee Pearson - he has no legs and his horse goes beautifully. You don't need russian shot putters legs to ride well.
 
I've started to ride more with my seat as my boy is very light on the leg aids......seems to create a more 'together' feel as well - maybe it's just my boy and I'm certainly no expert!
 
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In the perfect world you ask once with the lightest of aids and the horse does what you ask until you tell it to stop. You shouldn't have your leg on constantly, just look at Blue Circle Boy and Lee Pearson - he has no legs and his horse goes beautifully. You don't need russian shot putters legs to ride well.

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Tell that to my Georgie
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no expert here but I have been taught that your leg should be there all the time the phrase I get is "cuddle" so there is no big gaps between my leg and his side. But that doesnt mean I have my leg "on" as such, its just there so I can instantly put it on should he fall behind my leg or want him to lengthen, or change gear etc. I think when instructors say you must use your leg to get true outline what they mean is make sure you use more leg that hand. Perhaps if you think of your legs as the starter, your seat and legs together to maintain the rythum and inpulsion and your hands come last to catch what you have asked for. Bit like holding a bubble in your hand, squeeze and the bubble burst (hands to strong) splay your fingers and the bubble goes between them (hands doing nothing).
I may be way wrong here, but hey it works for me!!
 
I was taught that light loose contact was required to get horse moving forwards but when my instructor told me to squeeze with my leg she said my squeeze was too feebel! I felt like I was trying to crush rocks between my thighs!!
I think i ride better from the seat as when I use my legs my whole body tenses up which probably makes the moving forward thing alot more difficult.
 
i was taught that you should need minimal leg when in the pace you want and that leg is there for bending, turning, moving up and down gaits, sideways etc - NOT to keep the horse simply moving forward (my instructor was very scary!!)

however my instructor was also very firm about lightness of contact and that you should be able to hold it all together with a thread of cotten. no strong contact should be used as it should come from your seat.

i think its the showjumper tim stockdale that is very ademant (sp) that horses should stay in the pace you put them in even if you take your leg away?
 
Well my mare is very forward going and when I first got her would hardly accept any leg without shooting off. She is much better now, but my instructor is forever telling me to use my legs alll the time and I feel that I don't need to - she keeps impulsion through the seat. I feel that if I use my leg all the time whe it's not needed she is actually becoming less responsive.

And I don't use a whip when lunging 'cos it sends her loopy!
 
I agree with pretty much everything that has been said.

I have always been taught that the lunge whip is used in replacement of the leg aids

Also again i agree that leg, leg, leg is probably mis-leading as implies that you have to nag the horse. It does depend on the horse but with my girl we have taught her to be responsive to the aids and so the leg is only used when required for a transition or movement. The rhythm should technically be maintained without nagging. We did this by doing short sharp transitions and if the aid was ignored it would be backed up by a tap with the whip. She is a lazy horse and so regularly needs to be reminded of this! Also my instructor taught me that it is better to give one good kick than sit there nagging. It is much kinder for the horse in the long run and makes your aids much clearer to them.

My horse (ID) is very wide across the back but her belly goes back in, as i have such long legs my lower leg is not actually in full contact and i have to lift my heel to give an aid. (i had a lunge lesson on the weekend and this is what my instructor was trying to get me to achieve anyway!) It is then returned until another aid is given.

xxx
 
I dont know, I have completely forgotten how to ride
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I have the same prob as Ginagem as in I have to lift my heel as my legs are too long
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Am seriously considering some swan necked spurs so the lift is tiny and have also booked some lessons (God help me) to try and work out how to ride a less forward going horse - I actually think she IS moving forwards and correctly, but to me it is very strange - she also does not move instantly away from the leg, but we will get there!
 
Too much leg is a serious pet hate of mine!!!

You see so many lovely moving horses, being shut down by over use of the leg who like you say, move perfectly well on the lunge etc.

If I hear an instructor barking "more leg" "leg on" all the time, I immediately switch off and stop watching.

By implication the phrase "infront of the leg" means the horse is going forward without being pushed along by the leg, and the leg is there as a reminder if ever the horse happens to fall back.

Too many instructors tell riders how to put an aid ON, but I hear very few who spell out clearly the positive reinforcement power of taking it OFF (be that rein, seat or hand).

*calmsdownandgetsoffsoapbox*
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Yes, to achieve a correct outline you need to ride from back to front. The only way to get the horse to lift infront is to get the motor working behind. That doesnt necessarily mean to kick, kick, kick... in fact, Im very much against this. It makes absolutly no sense from a training point of view. If you want your horse to respond to your aids, you have to apply and then take them OFF when it reacts. From the horse's point of view, where is the incentive to respond if the pressure isn't then removed? Horses dont like to be squeezed all the time.

It should be *ask* *respond* *release - reward*

The horse should then keep going in that pace until told to do something else. Similarly when applying the leg aid for lateral movements, you should ask, wait for the horse to respond and release. Albeit here, I leave the leg in the position of the asking, to act as a wall... For example, in half pass / leg yield, you would slide your "asking" leg slightly back behind the girth, press, release upon response from the horse, but leave the leg behind the girth as a wall. I also use the whole leg to ask for lateral movements, rather than just the lower leg.

If the horse doesnt respond, you press harder. If it still doesnt respond, you use a schooling whip. Providing the horse receives instant rewards, it will become sharper off the leg.

I dont use my seat excessively because this can cause the horse to hollow. We're aiming for lift over the back... this cant be acheived with a rider that is either pressing down excessively or grinding. The use of the seat has it's place, but it should be subtle to encourage correct use of the back muscles (and also to respect them).

You ask about why horses work brilliantly on the lunge with training aids. Do they? Most horses curl through their neck with a training aid but dont work over their backs correctly. In the case of the lunge, the lunge whip should replace the effect of the rider's leg, driving the horse forward. The best way, imo, to work a horse on the lunge is to take a lot of lessons from a good ground worker and learn to double lunge and long rein without the gadgets.

Much of it depends on the outline you're aiming for. Many training gadgets encourage a curling of the neck that creates a break in the outline at about the 3rd verterbrae.

http://www.sustainabledressage.com/tack/gadgets.php#drawreins

(some of the pictures there should explain this).

You want the highest point of the neck to be the poll... which actually requires a much higher neck carriage than most people ride with (or infact, aim for).

The hands should be there to give the horse a constant contact in which to work into. This often requires a tighter / shorter rein length than many people use. It shouldnt, however, require constant fiddling or sawing on the reins. The aim should be for the motor behind to push the horse up and INTO the contact, not to use the hand to pull the horse down and inwards (again, this creates a neck curl which breaks the outline at the wrong place). The arm should act as a pulley between the rider and the horses mouth with the ability to give and take (through flexible elbows and wrists). The actual contact, once the horse is working correctly, should be feather light. It was described to me as "holding hands" with your horse and I believe this is a good analogy.

So, in conclusion, I use my legs to ask for a change of transition, a change of pace within a transition, a change of tempo, a lateral step and bend - this includes downwards transitions or a slowing of the pace and not just increases.

Hands are there to ask for bend, aid with turning and to create the contact into which the horse works. They aren't used to *ask* for the actual flexion that occurs at the poll.

Seat can ask for a little more impulsion if used correctly but should be applied relatively sparingly at the risk of sacrificing roundness over the back.

Weight (not to be confused with seat here and not a direct aid as such), can aid turning, laterals again and also the general outline of the horse. A rider that cant ensure their weight is in the correct place, will create a horse with an imperfect outline. Tip your weight forwards and the whole horse's frame tips forward in order to keep itself under your centre of gravity.

Of course... few of us ever achieve the perfect outline anyway
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But never the less, true dressage in it's classical form should aim for this perfection... which is, in essence, the optimum way for the horse to carry the rider with the minimum damage to the physiology of the animal.
 
When I ride our baby horse that I backed myself I expect him to go forward off the leg and then remain at that pace until asked to do something else. If he starts to slow down without being asked then I prefer to tap him with the stick rather than using the leg, and it seems to be working because he is a light and responsive ride. I apply much the same principle when riding either of my older horses in that I refuse to contastly nag them.
 
I also agree that a horse should move off the leg, and remain at that pace and speed until asked to change. When I ride my leg is there, and supporting, but not nagging (if that makes sense).

Nothing worse to see than a niggle with every stride
 
Didn't put about legs! I tend to have my whole leg on ty and squeeze when needed......if you suddenly put your legs on Ty you end up in gallop mode!
 
Wow, great reply, thanks. I agree with what you're saying and this is the way I prefer to ride and the way my horse goes best. Sometimes it's hard though when you are being told something differnet by someone who you are paying to teach you. Time to change the instructor maybe!
 
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